Michael Brown Shooting: A Bitterly Divided Nation

[Swordfish]

Especially when you consider the killing shots were from 150 ft away. How can one be afraid for one's life from an unarmed attacker when the attacker is 50 yards away?

The killing shots were not from 150 feet away. You're mistaken.

That would be a nearly impossible shot with a handgun in the heat of the moment at a moving target.

[MerenthaClone]

I believe Wilson and Brown are estimated to have 30-35 feet apart when Brown was killed, Wilson had advanced from his vehicle to pursue Brown. And Brown was at the time of death 150' away from the vehicle. But this range is not considered dangerous when the other party (Brown) doesn't have a gun, for a knife it's about 20' and I don't know what it is with "personal weapons", but I imagine the range is shorter still.

The Tueller drill requires you to draw your firearm and fire before the knife-wielding assailant closes the 20 feet. If you've got your weapon drawn and aimed already the distance is much, much smaller.

[Swordfish]

Can someone point to a link that indicates what the actual distance was?

Lots of speculation here, but no real data.

[The Notorious]

"*And I imagine this will not surprise people, when I took the test I showed an implicit preference for black people (the test was white vs black people, so that also means I showed a bias against white people)."

Summah, it is quite possible that your own implicit bias might be influencing your analysis of the facts of this case yes?

[TrueMetis]

3. Officer Wilson's reasonable fear was not necessarily that he was going to be physically pummeled the death. The concern was that, given that Michael Brown had already attacked him and tried to take his service weapon while he was in his police car, that if he was overpowered he would lose control of his gun and be shot.

Was there anything preventing him from backing away from Brown? He managed to catch up to Brown when Brown had a head start so presumably he's faster than Brown. If he's really worried about Brown getting his gun maybe don't get closer to him.

[YoungGriff89]

The killing shots were not from 150 feet away. You're mistaken.

That would be a nearly impossible shot with a handgun in the heat of the moment at a moving target.

No one said Wilson hit Brown from 150 feet away with his pistol, where Brown actually died was 150 feet away from Officer Wilson's vehicle where the initial altercation took place. They had to get there somehow, Brown ran and Wilson chased him until he was about 8 to 10 feet away when he fired the shot that killed him. Honestly I'm surprised Wilson missed so many times if Brown was charging him. Once somebody is running at you, when they get to I'd say about 15 feet if you just aim your weapon and fire you don't have to aim very much you're going to hit whatever you're shooting at. And Brown wasn't a thin guy either, there was a lot of target to hit.

[Swordfish]

Was there anything preventing him from backing away from Brown? He managed to catch up to Brown when Brown had a head start so presumably he's faster than Brown. If he's really worried about Brown getting his gun maybe don't get closer to him.

It would be a fascinating world to live in where cops are running from suspects, I'll give you that.

No one said Wilson hit Brown from 150 feet away with his pistol,

Actually, that is EXACTLY what the post i responded to said. So i have no idea what you're reading, but you're wrong.

[YoungGriff89]

It would be a fascinating world to live in where cops are running from suspects, I'll give you that.

Actually, that is EXACTLY what the post i responded to said. So i have no idea what you're reading, but you're wrong.

Well then aceluby is as mistaken as I am. You're absolutely right it barres belief that a pistol hit somebody from 150 feet away.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

It would be a fascinating world to live in where cops are running from suspects, I'll give you that.

Yes, backing away from = running from. And I have a problem with nuance.

[mormont]

And I think you're giving too much credence to generalities at the expense of details and the deliberate elimination of context.

Funny, because I was just thinking that it was you who was blatantly ignoring context.

Consider the context: Wilson is an officer in a police force that is 94% white in a town that's 70% black. He formerly worked in a police force that was disbanded amid, amongst other things, allegations of racial tension. This is the context in which Wilson works and has worked. It would be impossible, in that context, if Wilson had not been exposed to racial stereotypes about black youths and astonishing if he were unaffected by them. Yet that's what you are arguing.

Let me again re-quote your earlier contention that:

Bear in mind the context here that we have a testimony of a law enforcement officer detailing his encounter with an assailant, hence I was pressing on the point that is there empirical comparative data analyzing this context and showing that such descriptions "as a whole is one more often applied to black youth", as opposed to white or yellow youths. I don't think your links above support that earlier claim of your at all.

Bully for you. That doesn't change the fact that the stereotypes of black male youths described in those links match very closely the characterisation of Brown and his behaviour that appears in Wilson's testimony: indeed, the aspects of that testimony that Wilson gives particular emphasis to are the very ones that match those stereotypes.

I'll note that this is testimony given by a man who knows he absolutely has to persuade people that he was in genuine fear for his life. The implication that 'testimony given by a law enforcement officer' is particularly immune to stereotyping is not credible. I'll say this, though: if your criterion for a police shooting where race is a factor is that it must include racially derogatory language in official testimony given by a serving officer, then in your world, America is a country where there are darn few police shootings where race is a factor. I doubt that many people live in your world.

Was there anything preventing him from backing away from Brown?

Didn't he say he backed up as Brown charged - about ten feet?

[Swordfish]

Well then aceluby is as mistaken as I am. You're absolutely right it barres belief that a pistol hit somebody from 150 feet away.

No worries.

[Summah]

Summah, it is quite possible that your own implicit bias might be influencing your analysis of the facts of this case yes?

Everyone's implicit bias affects their perceptions. Yours as well, whatever that is. However no I do not think it affects my analysis of this case, which fits into my larger belief that the vast majority of police killings in this country are not justified and could be avoided (I think among other things, there's a problem with training and with American views about this subject in general, basically how much the general public tolerates it and continues to support the police), and I say this about almost every case I hear about whether or not the victims are black and no matter the race of the cop. However this is also something that disproportionately affects black men, as they are much more likely to be shot by the police than white males. It is a part of the systemic racism at every level of the CJ system, and denying that racism is not only denying a lot of evidence and statistical analysis, it's also denying the personal experiences of millions of American black people, including me, many of my friends and family and almost every other black person I know. Do these negative (and implicitly, sometimes explicitly racist) experiences color my perception of the police? Yes, I do not like or trust the police and I can't remember ever having done so, however I think unless my personality was vastly different, if I were white (with presumably different implicit biases) I would still be opposed to police brutality, killings and institutionalized racism, though I very much doubt I would have had the same personal experiences with them.

[NestorMakhnosLovechild]

In terms of the influence of stereotypes. I guess the Notorious and Nestor are both unaware of implicit bias? Most white people show an implicit preference towards white people, and bias against other groups like black people.* to believe that Wilson is entirely free of bias and the effects of negative stereotypes is ludicrous. Holding a standard that someone must use blatantly derogatory language to prove racism played any part is also ludicrous, I don't believe what we've seen of Wilson is beyond a reasonable doubt proof of racism, but when the standard appears to be using words like n****r, I don't think that's something that generally can be proven beyond a reasonable doubt for most people that engage in some type of racial discrimination, profiling or bias because most people know those words are not socially acceptable and do not use them in public (I have no idea what racist white people do or say in private among other like-minded white people). Yes many racists have become more subtle about their racism.

Not only am I not unaware of the idea of implicit bias, I actually squarely addressed the issue in a post from a prior iteration of this thread in which I said:

I am in favor of outfitting all police officers with personal cameras that must be activated whenever they interact with the public, but I'm not sure that would have prevented Officer Wilson from shooting Michael Brown.

I think the real issue is that there needs to be a concerted effort for local police departments to focus on "community policing" with individual officers actively embedded in, and interacting with, the communities in which they patrol. I also think there needs to be a concerted effort for police departments to hire officers that reflect the racial diversity of the communities that they patrol. There are enough studies showing discrepancies in how people view and react to people of their own race vs. people of different races to make me believe that we need a strategy for dealing with unconscious racism that acknowledges this is a thing that we may never be able to correct fully with proper training (even if police departments were inclined to institute that training), and that we should be mitigating its effects by trying to make sure that the people who police communities are from and reflect the diversity of those communities.

I have never claimed that Wilson is completely free of prejudice, and my standard for thinking that racial prejudice played a role in the Brown shooting is hardly "beyond a reasonable doubt." But I do have a standard. And that standard requires more than the suggestion that because Wilson described Brown as mean and scary and historically racist people have called black men mean and scary means that Wilson was drawing on or influenced by or channeling those racist tropes. I accept and acknowledge the fact that sometimes people are mean and scary and while this sometimes has to do with race, many times it does not have to do with race. You're going to have to give me something else to make your case, other than observing that racists from 100 years ago also used the English language.

And it doesn't help your case that you seemed perfectly happy to mischaracterize the context of certain things Wilson testified to (the Hulk Hogan comments). And it doesn't help that the physical evidence that we have supports significant parts of Wilson's story.

For example, you keep harping on this idea that Wilson saying that it looked like Brown was "bulking up" and seemingly "running through" bullets that he was shooting him with as evidence that Wilson viewed Brown as some supernatural bullet-proof black stereotype. Yet there's a small problem with this theory, which is that the blood trail at the scene indicates that Michael Brown advanced at least 25 feet towards Officer Wilson while being shot by him. If you're shooting somebody full of bullets and they advanced 25 feet towards you during this process, it's pretty easy for me to see how you might be under the initial impression at least that the person you were shooting at was "running through" your bullets, or at very least, they simply weren't effective at what they were doing.

Maybe Wilson had been reading those hundred year old newspapers about bullet-proof Negroes that you previously linked to the morning before he shot Michael Brown, or maybe his impression of Brown "running through" his bullets was a legitimate observation based upon what actually happened. You seem pretty convinced of the former, although I tend to think there's much better physical evidence for the latter.

[theprincethatwasntpromised]

Everyone's implicit bias affects their perceptions. Yours as well, whatever that is. However no I do not think it affects my analysis of this case, which fits into my larger belief that the vast majority of police killings in this country are not justified and could be avoided (I think among other things, there's a problem with training and with American views about this subject in general, basically how much the general public tolerates it and continues to support the police), and I say this about almost every case I hear about whether or not the victims are black and no matter the race of the cop. However this is also something that disproportionately affects black men, as they are much more likely to be shot by the police than white males. It is a part of the systemic racism at every level of the CJ system, and denying that racism is not only denying a lot of evidence and statistical analysis, it's also denying the personal experiences of millions of American black people, including me, many of my friends and family and almost every other black person I know. Do these negative (and implicitly, sometimes explicitly racist) experiences color my perception of the police? Yes, I do not like or trust the police and I can't remember ever having done so, however I think unless my personality was vastly different, if I were white (with presumably different implicit biases) I would still be opposed to police brutality, killings and institutionalized racism, though I very much doubt I would have had the same personal experiences with them.

It's one thing to believe race was a factor. It's quite another to insist that it was. Especially when you still haven't provided any evidence that was the case. It sounds more like you've been conditioned to not like or trust the police from an early age. Do you think that may have been the cause for some of your bad experiences with the cops?

[YoungGriff89]

I honestly don't think race played a big role in Darren Wilson's actions. Sounds more like a cop who made a laundry list of mistakes that led to killing someone and now he's trying to take as little accountability as possible for any mistakes he may have made.

Race is playing a bigger role in people's reactions to how the police department lied and the decision not to indict. I think the investigation was not thorough enough and the racial overtones are getting in the way of the very serious problem of who's watching the watchmen?

[Summah]

I have never claimed that Wilson is completely free of prejudice, and my standard for thinking that racial prejudice played a role in the Brown shooting is hardly "beyond a reasonable doubt." But I do have a standard. And that standard requires more than the suggestion that because Wilson described Brown as mean and scary and historically racist people have called black men mean and scary means that Wilson was drawing on or influenced by or channeling those racist tropes. I accept and acknowledge the fact that sometimes people are mean and scary and while this sometimes has to do with race, many times it does not have to do with race. You're going to have to give me something else to make your case, other than observing that racists from 100 years ago also used the English language.

I said the stereotypes were old and racist, I didn't say they weren't still in use--they are. Of course no one uses the term giant negro anymore because hardly anyone uses the term negro anymore, however black suspects are portrayed as more threatening by the media, using more mug shots or other photos whether they look physically threatening. I linked the giant negro articles to show how old and pervasive that type of stereotyping was, I really didn't think people would question that something similar is still current today. It's pretty obvious when I'm walking down the sidewalk with a black man, we're in an ok neighborhood, both dressed nicely and as we walk by cars lock their doors and women clutch their purses closer. The effect is more pronounced with larger men, and I have not seen this with white men. This is something that doesn't happen to me alone or with other women frequently because I'm a woman.

This ongoing difference in perceptions has been found to still be true now, from a recent analysis:

A study of television news found that black crime suspects were presented in more threatening contexts than whites: black suspects were disproportionately shown in mug shots and in cases where the victim was a stranger.122 Black and Latino suspects were also more often presented in a non-individualized way than whites – by being left unnamed – and were more likely to be shown as threatening – by being depicted in physical custody of police.

The report: http://sentencingproject.org/doc/publications/rd_Race_and_Punishment.pdf

Some highlights for tl;dr crowd: http://www.theroot.com/blogs/journalisms/2014/09/how_media_have_shaped_our_perception_of_race_and_crime.html

Racial differences in how white suspects and black victims are described. Ding ding ding for anyone who guessed that the black victims are described in a more derogatory way than the white suspects:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/08/14/media-black-victims_n_5673291.html

Oh and I randomly followed a few of the links to make sure it was like they said, because Huffington Post and the ones I tried matched what the article said.

[TerraPrime]

Consider the context: Wilson is an officer in a police force that is 94% white in a town that's 70% black. He formerly worked in a police force that was disbanded amid, amongst other things, allegations of racial tension. This is the context in which Wilson works and has worked. It would be impossible, in that context, if Wilson had not been exposed to racial stereotypes about black youths and astonishing if he were unaffected by them. Yet that's what you are arguing.

You're also missing another piece: Ferguson PD has been documented by the State of Missourri to have a racially-biased enforcement of traffic tickets and stop-and-frisk against black people, going on for over a decade. If anyone doesn't deserve the benefit of the doubt about not acting in racist ways, it'd be police officers from Ferguson PD.

That said, I will also make clear that I agree with you that I don't think Wilson's decisions were consciously racist, as in, "man, that kid is black, I'm going to fuck with him and make his life miserable because I hate black people." Nevertheless, it is much more likely that his actions and his decisions that day were affected by racism than not. He did have a chance to make that assessment of the likelihood go more in his favor, but his testimony didn't really do that. In fact, the testimony rather confirmed some of it.

[aceluby]

I honestly don't think race played a big role in Darren Wilson's actions. Sounds more like a cop who made a laundry list of mistakes that led to killing someone and now he's trying to take as little accountability as possible for any mistakes he may have made.

Race is playing a bigger role in people's reactions to how the police department lied and the decision not to indict. I think the investigation was not thorough enough and the racial overtones are getting in the way of the very serious problem of who's watching the watchmen?

I don't think the initial stop would have even been made had it been a couple of white kids, and the statistics of who and why they get stopped in the area support that hypothesis.

[aceluby]

It's one thing to believe race was a factor. It's quite another to insist that it was. Especially when you still haven't provided any evidence that was the case. It sounds more like you've been conditioned to not like or trust the police from an early age. Do you think that may have been the cause for some of your bad experiences with the cops?

I guess if you just completely ignore all the evidence that shows that there is systemic racism in the Ferguson PD as well as the CJ system overall. But I'm not surprised that you deny either.

[YoungGriff89]

I don't think the initial stop would have even been made had it been a couple of white kids, and the statistics of who and why they get stopped in the area support that hypothesis.

Reevaluating what happened I think it's a possibility but I'm not certain. Let's not forget Michael Brown and Dorian Johnson were walking in the middle of the street, I think any cop would have warned two white people just as fast as he did two black people for that. He may have even cited a white person right away because, "hey they're two white people they're probably not up to anything more than jaywalking. But two black guys? Better hold off and see if they do anything more sinister."

That could have been his mindset. However, my own personal theory that will never be proven true or false is that Wilson didn't pull his vehicle forward, call for backup, and then back up his vehicle to prevent Brown and Johnson from escaping. I think he pulled forward, saw Johnson say something, assumed it was an insult to him, and let his ego take over from there. He might have been looking back at them out of suspicion that he wouldn't have if it were white people.

Maybe race played a factor when Wilson opened the door and it somehow got shut on him (either Brown pushed it shut or it bounced off of Brown since Wilson was so close) because he assumed the big scary black guy was assaulting him. That could have been an action based on race, maybe he would have reacted differently if it had been a 6'4" and nearly 300 pound white guy. I don't know, if we aren't getting an indictment I hope this case helps fix racial tension problems that were pre-existing in the Ferguson PD.