Bakker XXXII: The Acts of Fane

[Darzin]

Fuliginous fluids from pendulous phalli? Jeebus. Look what you guys have done to me.

Is not truth infinite?

[lokisnow]

skimming some threads over at the other forum, some questions I was reminded I had but never pondered further as they probably deserve.

Regarding the BIG question, as posed by the Series Title:

Why the fuck do we self-centered humans think the term APOCALYPSE applies to the human race? to the world of the human race?

The Title is the Second Apocalypse. The No God is referred to by blindly-self-centered in-universe humans as the First Apocalypse, but note it was not an Apocalypse It was not a World Ending Event. The World Ending Event was forestalled and did not occur.

In the Bible, who survived a World Ending Event--an Apocalypse--because he was so good that God loved him alone in all the world? Noah.

What is the name of Noah's ship? The Ark.

In Earwa, perhaps we should then conclude than the denizens of the Ark are the survivors of a World Ending Event--an Apocalypse, The First Apocalypse. The inchoroi are the chosen ones beloved of God for being the only good representatives of their species in all the world. If the parallel holds, God punished the wicked of the Inchoroi Home World with the First Apocalypse, but he saved some, sealed them in an Ark and sent them to a new world unspoilt by their wickedness. :-p

the Second Apocalypse, then, would therefore not be the return of the No God, but God choosing once again to destroy a world of wickedness (except for his chosen few), The second apocalypse is not the fall of the age of man, but the destruction of the world.

***

Regarding Ishual:

1. What is the carrying capacity of the Ishual Valley?

2. Do they have agriculture and how is it hidden from aerial observation?

3. Do they have aquaculture?

4. What about livestock?

5. Do they hunt game?

6. Are they vegetarians?

7. Are they cannibals

8. Where do they get the animal fat to make their seeming infinite supply of candles?

9. Why have they maintained smiths and iron/steel working knowledge?

10. Do they also mine ore?

11. How do they make clothes?

Here are my thoughts:

1. As described, the Ishual Valley could probably sustain a population of one or two thousand at most. There are slight textual suggestions that the trees are conditioned, but nothing really to go on, at best we can surmise the Dunyain tend their forest at the least and may gain some sustenance from the management of the trees and the grounds below the trees. There's no real mention made of fields, iirc.

2. Traditional agricultural would probably be verboten to preserve concealment from aerial surveillance, unless a glamour protects the valley, in which case agriculture would be possible. However Agriculture needs people to work the fields and master the animals and manufacture the tools necessary for even primitive farming, so it's a significant swath of the Ishual society. It's still possible despite the labor requirements and additional specializations because grain farming increases carrying capacity of the land, so you can then have a larger society.

3. Presumably they have some sort of aquaculture to make use of those resources provided by the stream. If Ishual is indeed a nonman mansion as many have proposed there is probably ample water and aquaculture opportunities on the lower levels, as seen in Moenghus' palace of water (unless all the water displayed in the palace of water auditorium where he received Kellhus was sorcerous).

4. Livestock reduce the carrying capacity of the land because of their high feed requirements but they provide protein and fat you would consider to be a prerequisite for someone of Kellhus' size and strength. Hogs can do well concealed beneath a forest and helpfully convert those acorns into tasty bacon. There's also the possibility that you could maintain livestock with subterranean innovations such as palatable cave moss?

5. The Ishual Valley probably supports a very limited amount of annual hunting or all wild game has gone extinct. Dunyain sensibilities point towards the latter or towards the total domestication/domination of all such variables such that there is no wild game any longer. Kellhus, while possessing only acorn edibles does not eat fish he encounters and does not hunt deer and other game he encounters. After meeting Leweth, he learns how to hunt and what to eat, but it seems he was about as ignorant as a modern 2014 youth who is used to seeing meat presented conveniently cut up at the supermarket, no live animal required.

6. Kellhus only carries acorn product with him to sustain him on his journey south. This could mean that this was considered the only viable food that could keep and travel or it could mean the Dunyain are vegetarian. As noted, Kellhus is enormous and very strong, he's got a huge protein requirement that isn't being met by acorns. The use of acorns as grain seems to indicate they're not doing surface agriculture. I imagine acorn makes a particularly vile hard tack, lembas it is not.

7. Cannibalism seems very likely, it would provide meat, if some men are raised as domesticated livestock, they could be fed acorns and fattened like hogs. You'd make sure they couldn't reason or speak, ala Planet of the Apes. Skins could provide clothes (Kellhus recognizes a face-skin cloak, afterall). The big problem is humans grow incredibly slowly and therefore make terrible livestock. humans also only welp small litters, making using them as livestock even more onerous a process. The whole horrifying enterprise would fit well with the Ayn Randian ethos of the Dunyain though, and would help explain why they've crafted such an emotionless sociopathic approach to society.

8. The amount of candles in the unmasking room points to sorcery. Otherwise Ishual has an appetite for animal fat to manufacture candles that would vastly outcompete other important food considerations. The presence of bees in kellhus' other reminiscence suggests that beeswax is also a possibility, but your harvest ability there is profoundly limited in such a small environs, it would never supply the needed candles. In any event, we know at least that the presence of so many candles points to an ishual specialization in candle manufacture, which suggests to me a community on the larger end rather than smaller (larger end being of 2000-ish as said above).

9. Kellhus is tremendously proud of his Dunyain steel. Given this appelation, we know the Dunyain have maintained skills and specializations in smithing that are profoundly useless to such a small community that is radically isolated and without competition. However, they also maintained kung-fu fighting (probably cuz it's so kewl), so maintaining the labor expense of weapons for the kungfufighting is at least a consistent if thoroughly baffling use of extraordinarily limited resources. If Ishual was well kitted out, the Dunyain perhaps have enough old metal to rework it as they see fit. However, the presence of old arms and armaments would invite a tremendous amount of questions, so it's more likely they're using ore, or long ago melted everything down so that no questions could be asked. But this also begs the question of what they are using for fuel for their forges, there's only so many trees you can burn, after all.So that makes me wonder if they have ore and coal mines in Ishual providing the raw material for all that Dunyain manufactured steel kellhus is so thoughtlessly proud of.

10. And perhaps most importantly, Clothing. Agriculture and animal husbandry are the traditional ways you get the raw materials for this stuff, so the fact that Kellhus is dressed in anything at all suggests that Ishual has both. It also points again to a high-count estimate of Ishual's population, given the labor necessities of even clothing manufacture on the small scale of a few hundred garments per year.

***

Even maintaining a self sufficient community of 1000 is tricky and involves an enormous variety of specialization and skill sets to just provide basic necessities.

I presume that since Non Man mansions are so ginormous that beneath the Thousand Thousand Halls is the actual non man mansion.

Non man mansions were able to sustain subterranean communities of vast scales, there must be some ways of aqua culture, agriculture and animal husbandry etc that can be done deep in the bowels of the earth.

Perhaps all the above is useless speculation because Ishaul is really down in the bowels of the earth in the heart of the nonman mansion, not the surface fort we've seen on screen.

If Ishual is down there below the Thousand Thousand Halls, it is presumably all unbeknowst to Kellhus, though he could know if he didn't fortify himself in ignorance of his origins in the manner of world born men.

Kellhus never thought about where his sword came from, where his clothes came from, where his food came from etc.

Kellhus is your typical privileged git, totally ignorant of everything that provides for his existence, all those come before him. How about the nakedness that comes before? How about the starvation that comes before? Kellhus is ignorant of all these darknesses, despite them being as obvious and evident as the clothes on his back and the sword at his side.

I really love the idea that kellhus thinks ishual is a handful of monks and acolytes on the surface and never once thinks about where his food comes from or his clothing comes from or where his light comes from. :)

[sologdin]

i love you locke. that post made me mpreg.

[Callan S.]

1. Refer to the images in the first comment of the blog post in question

2. Refer to post #10 of this exact thread

3. If still confused, reread this part of the blog post in question.

;)

Are you saying post 10 is Bakker?

I think maybe the first image is apt in that you've got an agent smith thing going - Bakker just jacks into anyone who's plugged into the matrix - and makes a post?

[Larry of the Lawn]

Thread delivers!

[Maithanet]

But there is no indication that the Consult ever tried to exterminate the remaining Nonmen, right? Which is basically Ishterebinth. In fact, they recruited them.

The goal might have been to create the Thousand Temples and the office of Shriah.

I think the Consult may have wanted to isolate the Nonmen rather than exterminate them. The nonment in Ishterebinth are of little concern to the Consult because they can be easily monitored, the problem is just the ones wandering around unaccounted for. Thanks to the Tusk, I imagine that is much less common.

[lokisnow]

Are you saying post 10 is Bakker?

I think maybe the first image is apt in that you've got an agent smith thing going - Bakker just jacks into anyone who's plugged into the matrix - and makes a post?

Well I have an amusing history of accusing many prople of being bakker sockpuppets, it's almost a game so any accusation of mine is probably wrong.

Then that blog post tells the community Bakker admits his entire Internet life has been devoted to sockpuppeting lately and that he is frustrated his sockpuppets haven't been praised for his efforts and general awesomeness.

Further he describes what his sock puppet posts look like. So I went to page one of the thread and stopped at the first post that met the description Bakker helpfully provided of his posts.

To add to the suspicion the poster only has three posts, a dead giveaway, and stopped posting after one sarcastic tease from kal.

Lastly, the questions were reposted on the other forum but prefaced with a frustration very similar in tone and style to the blog post.

So it's a good bet but nothing is certain.

[Hello World]

Then that blog post tells the community Bakker admits his entire Internet life has been devoted to sockpuppeting lately and that he is frustrated his sockpuppets haven't been praised for his efforts and general awesomeness.

Huh? He said that he posts comments on various blogs... so? That’s not anymore sockpuppeting that what you’re doing right now even if he had used an alias. Furthermore, he says that his wordpress account was flagged for spamming implying that it was with that account that he made that commentary - the account that has his name on it.

[Anatúrinbor]

Well that sounds like good news.

Yes, we will hopefully get the promised excerpt soon.

[Michael Seswatha Jordan]

I read that entry last night on TPB, eh, Bakker seems like a pretty intelligent, cool dude who just catches a shit ton of flack. I don't think he was saying that he's a sock puppet, just he offers his insight and generally gets ignored. I like what he is doing by "outgrouping" his ideas and feelings on certain subjects. Hell, really, I hand it to the guy that he has enough ballz to keep doing what he is, after all of the internet shitstorms he's been through. I guess I'm in the minority here, but I kinda felt bad for him reading that.

[Anatúrinbor]

I doubt the Herring Spear will play any role in the story to come. But to add, the only other place it shows up is in the Seswatha Dreams [actually, this might not be true], and in at least one incident, the death of the NG, there is the TTT dream which suggests that the Dream was fabricated.

But there is something that seems suspicious to me about The Sagas. The glossary says that only two of its authors are named: Nau-Ganor and Heyorthau. I kind of have the feeling that those two authors are Seswatha himself. It might explain why it has two volumes dedicated to Seswatha and Nau-Cayuti.

Achamian in the JE thinks that it's strange that the Mandate's libraries are filled with records of NC's exploits, and then thinks "but if Nau-Cayuti was Seswatha's son."

But if NC was Seswatha's son, how could the authors of those books know about it? Unless the authors were Seswatha himself.

[Hello World]

On whether or not the so-called First Apocalypse was for men or not...

The TTT entry for the Heron Spear says that it was first mentioned in the Isurphayas (that's not what it's called exactly, I just can't do much better from memory). This is the book that Seswatha supposedly saves the only copies of from Sauglish. The one that he could have altered.

Serious question, can you clarify what the connection between these two paragraphs are? Are you saying that TFA was about the Heron Spear or the Nonmen?

[Anatúrinbor]

Just to clarify, the book I'm referring to is different from The Sagas, and I'd in fact once wrongly suggested that it was the Sagas that Seswatha saved from the Apocalypse when it was in fact the the Isuphiryas

I was thinking that maybe Seswatha had a hand in altering/writing both of those texts...

As for what he took out of the Isûsphiryas, I think it was either a reference to the Inverse Fire or (this is going to sound silly) that there is some secret way of entering Golgotterath that he doesn't want the Mandate to know about. The Cûno-Inchoroi Wars entry mentions several instances of someone entering or leaving Golgotterath without explaining how, the most suspicious one is this:

Somehow (the Isûphiryas does not go into detail) Sirwitta managed to enter the Incû-Holoinas.

We are explicitly told that the Isûphiryas does not mention how Sirwitta entered the Ark. We know that Seswatha himself entered Golgotterath to (supposedly) look for the Heron Spear without being noticed by the Consult. If there was some mention of a way to enter the Ark without being noticed then that's what he edited out, I think.

[lokisnow]

Heh great pit of years. That's an immensely loaded phrase/name, diagetically.

Notes crackpot that nonmen can't see paintings so they can't see writing, most like. Their word for book is defined as a mortal being who can act as an index or perhaps as a table of contents guiding and organizing the eternal memory of an immortal being ...

a humans word for book is defined as a collection of defaced and mutilated tree flesh to be shared and desseminated by mortals to other mortals given the condition said mortals have undergone years of rigorous training in their youth that allows them to ascertain meaning from the defacements made upon the tree flesh.

Nil giccas probably provided eljus and a nonman to the library and they transcribed to tree flesh what they were told by the eljus/non man combination.

But humans naturally think our word for book is the only word for book...

[bakkerfans]

skimming some threads over at the other forum, some questions I was reminded I had but never pondered further as they probably deserve.

Regarding the BIG question, as posed by the Series Title:

Why the fuck do we self-centered humans think the term APOCALYPSE applies to the human race? to the world of the human race?

The Title is the Second Apocalypse. The No God is referred to by blindly-self-centered in-universe humans as the First Apocalypse, but note it was not an Apocalypse It was not a World Ending Event. The World Ending Event was forestalled and did not occur.

In the Bible, who survived a World Ending Event--an Apocalypse--because he was so good that God loved him alone in all the world? Noah.

What is the name of Noah's ship? The Ark.

In Earwa, perhaps we should then conclude than the denizens of the Ark are the survivors of a World Ending Event--an Apocalypse, The First Apocalypse. The inchoroi are the chosen ones beloved of God for being the only good representatives of their species in all the world. If the parallel holds, God punished the wicked of the Inchoroi Home World with the First Apocalypse, but he saved some, sealed them in an Ark and sent them to a new world unspoilt by their wickedness. :-p

the Second Apocalypse, then, would therefore not be the return of the No God, but God choosing once again to destroy a world of wickedness (except for his chosen few), The second apocalypse is not the fall of the age of man, but the destruction of the world.

***

Regarding Ishual:

1. What is the carrying capacity of the Ishual Valley?

2. Do they have agriculture and how is it hidden from aerial observation?

3. Do they have aquaculture?

4. What about livestock?

5. Do they hunt game?

6. Are they vegetarians?

7. Are they cannibals

8. Where do they get the animal fat to make their seeming infinite supply of candles?

9. Why have they maintained smiths and iron/steel working knowledge?

10. Do they also mine ore?

11. How do they make clothes?

Here are my thoughts:

1. As described, the Ishual Valley could probably sustain a population of one or two thousand at most. There are slight textual suggestions that the trees are conditioned, but nothing really to go on, at best we can surmise the Dunyain tend their forest at the least and may gain some sustenance from the management of the trees and the grounds below the trees. There's no real mention made of fields, iirc.

2. Traditional agricultural would probably be verboten to preserve concealment from aerial surveillance, unless a glamour protects the valley, in which case agriculture would be possible. However Agriculture needs people to work the fields and master the animals and manufacture the tools necessary for even primitive farming, so it's a significant swath of the Ishual society. It's still possible despite the labor requirements and additional specializations because grain farming increases carrying capacity of the land, so you can then have a larger society.

3. Presumably they have some sort of aquaculture to make use of those resources provided by the stream. If Ishual is indeed a nonman mansion as many have proposed there is probably ample water and aquaculture opportunities on the lower levels, as seen in Moenghus' palace of water (unless all the water displayed in the palace of water auditorium where he received Kellhus was sorcerous).

4. Livestock reduce the carrying capacity of the land because of their high feed requirements but they provide protein and fat you would consider to be a prerequisite for someone of Kellhus' size and strength. Hogs can do well concealed beneath a forest and helpfully convert those acorns into tasty bacon. There's also the possibility that you could maintain livestock with subterranean innovations such as palatable cave moss?

5. The Ishual Valley probably supports a very limited amount of annual hunting or all wild game has gone extinct. Dunyain sensibilities point towards the latter or towards the total domestication/domination of all such variables such that there is no wild game any longer. Kellhus, while possessing only acorn edibles does not eat fish he encounters and does not hunt deer and other game he encounters. After meeting Leweth, he learns how to hunt and what to eat, but it seems he was about as ignorant as a modern 2014 youth who is used to seeing meat presented conveniently cut up at the supermarket, no live animal required.

6. Kellhus only carries acorn product with him to sustain him on his journey south. This could mean that this was considered the only viable food that could keep and travel or it could mean the Dunyain are vegetarian. As noted, Kellhus is enormous and very strong, he's got a huge protein requirement that isn't being met by acorns. The use of acorns as grain seems to indicate they're not doing surface agriculture. I imagine acorn makes a particularly vile hard tack, lembas it is not.

7. Cannibalism seems very likely, it would provide meat, if some men are raised as domesticated livestock, they could be fed acorns and fattened like hogs. You'd make sure they couldn't reason or speak, ala Planet of the Apes. Skins could provide clothes (Kellhus recognizes a face-skin cloak, afterall). The big problem is humans grow incredibly slowly and therefore make terrible livestock. humans also only welp small litters, making using them as livestock even more onerous a process. The whole horrifying enterprise would fit well with the Ayn Randian ethos of the Dunyain though, and would help explain why they've crafted such an emotionless sociopathic approach to society.

8. The amount of candles in the unmasking room points to sorcery. Otherwise Ishual has an appetite for animal fat to manufacture candles that would vastly outcompete other important food considerations. The presence of bees in kellhus' other reminiscence suggests that beeswax is also a possibility, but your harvest ability there is profoundly limited in such a small environs, it would never supply the needed candles. In any event, we know at least that the presence of so many candles points to an ishual specialization in candle manufacture, which suggests to me a community on the larger end rather than smaller (larger end being of 2000-ish as said above).

9. Kellhus is tremendously proud of his Dunyain steel. Given this appelation, we know the Dunyain have maintained skills and specializations in smithing that are profoundly useless to such a small community that is radically isolated and without competition. However, they also maintained kung-fu fighting (probably cuz it's so kewl), so maintaining the labor expense of weapons for the kungfufighting is at least a consistent if thoroughly baffling use of extraordinarily limited resources. If Ishual was well kitted out, the Dunyain perhaps have enough old metal to rework it as they see fit. However, the presence of old arms and armaments would invite a tremendous amount of questions, so it's more likely they're using ore, or long ago melted everything down so that no questions could be asked. But this also begs the question of what they are using for fuel for their forges, there's only so many trees you can burn, after all.So that makes me wonder if they have ore and coal mines in Ishual providing the raw material for all that Dunyain manufactured steel kellhus is so thoughtlessly proud of.

10. And perhaps most importantly, Clothing. Agriculture and animal husbandry are the traditional ways you get the raw materials for this stuff, so the fact that Kellhus is dressed in anything at all suggests that Ishual has both. It also points again to a high-count estimate of Ishual's population, given the labor necessities of even clothing manufacture on the small scale of a few hundred garments per year.

***

Even maintaining a self sufficient community of 1000 is tricky and involves an enormous variety of specialization and skill sets to just provide basic necessities.

I presume that since Non Man mansions are so ginormous that beneath the Thousand Thousand Halls is the actual non man mansion.

Non man mansions were able to sustain subterranean communities of vast scales, there must be some ways of aqua culture, agriculture and animal husbandry etc that can be done deep in the bowels of the earth.

Perhaps all the above is useless speculation because Ishaul is really down in the bowels of the earth in the heart of the nonman mansion, not the surface fort we've seen on screen.

If Ishual is down there below the Thousand Thousand Halls, it is presumably all unbeknowst to Kellhus, though he could know if he didn't fortify himself in ignorance of his origins in the manner of world born men.

Kellhus never thought about where his sword came from, where his clothes came from, where his food came from etc.

Kellhus is your typical privileged git, totally ignorant of everything that provides for his existence, all those come before him. How about the nakedness that comes before? How about the starvation that comes before? Kellhus is ignorant of all these darknesses, despite them being as obvious and evident as the clothes on his back and the sword at his side.

I really love the idea that kellhus thinks ishual is a handful of monks and acolytes on the surface and never once thinks about where his food comes from or his clothing comes from or where his light comes from. :)

Morlocks and Eloi! I wonder if Ishual 'valley' is just a loose term--a bigger/more populated area simply all thrown under the umbrella of 'Ishual' like the way Atrithau or Minas Tirith implies stuff around the actual fortress

[lokisnow]

Morlocks and Eloi! I wonder if Ishual 'valley' is just a loose term--a bigger/more populated area simply all thrown under the umbrella of 'Ishual' like the way Atrithau or Minas Tirith implies stuff around the actual fortress

Kellhus is eloi, it is known.

[The Reckoner]

Can someone tell me what Bakkake is?

[Larry of the Lawn]

Can someone tell me what Bakkake is?

It's ejaculating a Bakker reference into another thread.

[Larry of the Lawn]

No, there can't be bakkake in a Bakker thread. It's only when it leaks into the outside.

[Calibandar]

Could that by chance mean sending out the manuscript to an editor as opposed to beta readers or something?

Yes, that must mean sending his manuscript to the publisher.