R+L=J v.119

[Mithras]

That's the info about Varamyr from Varamyr's PoV. But Mithras mentioned something about Leaf? I'm re-reading the prologue now, and I see that I misremembered or misunderstood.

“Where are the rest of you?” Bran asked Leaf, once.

“Gone down into the earth,” she answered. “Into the stones, into the trees."

Years later he had tried to find his parents, to tell them that their Lump had become the great Varamyr Sixskins, but both of them were dead and burned. Gone into the trees and streams, gone into the rocks and earth. Gone to dirt and ashes. That was what the woods witch told his mother, the day Bump died.

The white world turned and fell away. For a moment it was as if he were inside the weirwood, gazing out through carved red eyes as a dying man twitched feebly on the ground and a madwoman danced blind and bloody underneath the moon, weeping red tears and ripping at her clothes. Then both were gone and he was rising, melting, his spirit borne on some cold wind. He was in the snow and in the clouds, he was a sparrow, a squirrel, an oak. A horned owl flew silently between his trees, hunting a hare; Varamyr was inside the owl, inside the hare, inside the trees. Deep below the frozen ground, earthworms burrowed blindly in the dark, and he was them as well. I am the wood, and everything that’s in it, he thought, exulting.

[Jon Weirgaryen]

Meera is watching Bran like a hawk, stopping him from 'loosing' himself...while Jon might be stored along the salted fish in the cold chamber under the wall....but, yeah... it's all up to GRRM anyway. :)

Melisandre is around though, to watch not only herself, but Jon as well. The gods bless her sense and judgement.

[Ser Creighton]

I am not so sure Bran is going to be stuck in that cave, but may escape through the tunnels.

“The other wolves made do with his leavings; the old male fed first, then the female, then the tail. They were his now. They were pack.

No, the boy whispered, we have another pack.”

“Lady’s dead and maybe Grey Wind too, but somewhere there’s still Shaggydog and Nymeria and Ghost. Remember Ghost?”

It's funny how this one eyed theme shows up with the Wolves. Summer adopts him but this is not his pack as Brand reminds him and the reader and he points to his real pack. For me this always indicates he does not belong here.

Which leads to Sixskins, we of course have them moment of Sixskins taking his second life. But I was really thinking of Sixskins and the coat. Sixskins eventually becomes One eye, but if you recall there is something odd about his injury. Sixskins went to take the coat of a dead woman, a Squirrel coat, and was stabbed by a child. This is what killed him. So I have One Eye, Squirrel and Children. The Children are also known as the squirrel people and I can't help but notice the symbolic One eye.

I say it and I say it again, all is not right in that cave. Do not trust the Children, Bran does not belong there, he belongs with his pack. Embrace the darkness? That's a really one sided view of a tree, they need light as well. Either way I do not see Bran staying there, that is not his pack. Not to say the children are evil but that does not make them all good and nice either. Bloodraven seems more Ghost than anything, most of him has gone into the tree, really a shadow of a Ghost. They want Bran for something and have not revealed it as of yet, why is that? To stop the Others? Maybe give him a heads up on the plan. But no, eat some paste and get in the tree. When we end Dance, none of the children are in a good place. Arya is with the FM, not really a great place for a child, Sansa is with LF, not really a good thing, Rickon is on a not very nice island with what maybe Cannibals, Jon Stabbed, and Bran is in a death cave, sorry that is what it is. Your burried there is no natural light at all, a sunless sea, bones, a dying race and your taking lessons from a corpse.

I am also hoping Grey Wind shows up in the Vale and is alive, but that is neither here nor there. The Wolves can sense one another, but also I think they can sense the Stark children.

[Mithras]

Embrace the darkness?

Have you ever thought that the graduation ceremony of the maesters and the CotF might be related?

[Greymoon]

“Where are the rest of you?” Bran asked Leaf, once.

“Gone down into the earth,” she answered. “Into the stones, into the trees."

Years later he had tried to find his parents, to tell them that their Lump had become the great Varamyr Sixskins, but both of them were dead and burned. Gone into the trees and streams, gone into the rocks and earth. Gone to dirt and ashes. That was what the woods witch told his mother, the day Bump died.

The white world turned and fell away. For a moment it was as if he were inside the weirwood, gazing out through carved red eyes as a dying man twitched feebly on the ground and a madwoman danced blind and bloody underneath the moon, weeping red tears and ripping at her clothes. Then both were gone and he was rising, melting, his spirit borne on some cold wind. He was in the snow and in the clouds, he was a sparrow, a squirrel, an oak. A horned owl flew silently between his trees, hunting a hare; Varamyr was inside the owl, inside the hare, inside the trees. Deep below the frozen ground, earthworms burrowed blindly in the dark, and he was them as well. I am the wood, and everything that’s in it, he thought, exulting.

Thank you :)

[Greymoon]

Melisandre is around though, to watch not only herself, but Jon as well. The gods bless her sense and judgement.

Is that ironic? ;)

[Jon Weirgaryen]

I am not so sure Bran is going to be stuck in that cave, but may escape through the tunnels.

Do you know, this happens to me too, sometimes, until I then remember A Song for Lya.

It being a much shorter story though, who knows what A Song of Ice and Fire will make of that cave dwelling.

Is that ironic? ;)

If you will.

I think she needs some blessing for making more sense and better judgement out of her formidable gift.

[BearQueen87]

I am not so sure Bran is going to be stuck in that cave, but may escape through the tunnels.

Bran's body might be stuck, but not Bran himself.

[Ser Creighton]

Do you know, this happens to me too, sometimes, until I then remember A Song for Lya.

Yes I remember a song for Lya as well and it is not like Bran' story. You can throw the Mass suicide theme out the door. You don't have the romance, and Lya was craving acceptance. She eventually joins the hive mind and Robb moves on. It's a story about Martins own personal romance. Bran is not Lya, and the song for Lya is missing the long night the Others and everything else. He always has similar themes but that is not Bran, his story is not much like hers other than that sort of telepathic thing.

With morning comes Mistfall. If the books take after this title then you really don't want to know who Jon' parents are. Some mysteries are best left alone, you find out and it ruins the magic.

Dying of the light, well they are all dead or going to be.

He does his homages and runs with certain themes in all his books, however they are all their own books and they all have their own stories and plots. He could copy every story he has done in his own works, but then someone is going to look at his Masterpiece and say, he just copied what he did before, just in a different setting.

People sometimes talk about tropes and all that and how he loves to flip them and sometimes he does. But that cave has a horror feel to it, and every time he has placed me in a horror setting it's been a horror story. Blood and Cheese, the tales of the Night Fort.

Do you believe that Bran' story amounts to being crippled, watching his home burned, being betrayed by Theon, go to a cave and suicide? Live in cave, be a tree, be alone? Even if Bloodraven is sort of alive, this is much closer to a second life than a real life. Bran also points out that the fire is dying, he says it when he looks at his eye. Embracing the darkness is embracing what exactly? Man is not a tree we can't live that way. Even the exercise at the citadel, has been twisted to show magic does not exist, but it does. The exercise is meant to bring light to the darkness though, not embrace it.

Though those candles are a dangerous weapon, spying, effecting dreams. They basically say that they can do what we have seen Bloodraven do. Imagine how you could effect someone if you could give them visions and dreams of what you wanted them to see.

Anyway his works share some themes but they are all different stories. Look at Dying of the light, it is not about embracing Darkness, you know the Darkness is death. It's about coming to terms with oneself, nobody escapes death, but the title is based off the Dylan Thomas' poem. There is even a reference to it which Bran points out, that the Chidren will go quietly, but not man, Man would wroth, man would rage.

Do not go gentle into that good night,

Old age should burn and rage at close of day;

Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

Though wise men at their end know dark is right,

Because their words had forked no lightning they

Do not go gentle into that good night.

Good men, the last wave by, crying how bright

Their frail deeds might have danced in a green bay,

Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

Wild men who caught and sang the sun in flight,

And learn, too late, they grieved it on its way,

Do not go gentle into that good night.

Grave men, near death, who see with blinding sight

Blind eyes could blaze like meteors and be gay,

Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

And you, my father, there on the sad height,

Curse, bless me now with your fierce tears, I pray.

Do not go gentle into that good night.

Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

Now in this case, in this series darkness is associated with death, the long night. Bran is suppose to be there to stop it, yet embrace the darkness. Why? Why would you embrace that? What is darkness symbolic of?

You get the FM they embrace death and are more full of shit than most. God tells us who to kill, we are indifferent about who we kill, but we are death as an adder. We are helping the process, you know speeding things along. We serve death so it's ok. Nothing but hypocrisy and bullshit, they choose who lives and who dies by their hands. Living is so hard we make death so easy.

The Undying, who are rotting flesh monsters, all blue with their rotting heart, join us, we just want to suck the life out of you.

"The fire, the life."

Of course death is part of life, but that does not mean you sprint to it and give it a hug when you are an 11 year old child.

Jaime Lannister

'This is your place, Brother. This is your darkness."

Dont leave me in the dark!

What lives in the darkness?

Doom.

"The flames will burn so long as you live," he heard Cersei call. "When they die, so must you."

"The Fire, the life."

Darkness is the long good night and it falls on Westeros, but like any cycle a new fire rises in the east. There is that symbolism.

and she will fly to your side as fast as wind and water can carry her. You are the last of her line, and this Mother of Dragons, this Breaker of Chains, is above all a rescuer."

"The girl who drowned the slaver cities in blood rather than leave strangers to their chains can scarcely abandon her own brothers son in his hour of peril.

Foreshadowing? You never know, but it seems unlikely embracing the Darkness is a good thing, because it is presented as pretty bad in the books. It's not the Night's men, it's the Night's watch and they are watching for it for a reason and it's not to embrace it.

[Jon Weirgaryen]

Now there's a well written answer. Thank you, Ser Creighton!

[Greymoon]

[...] Aerys Targaryen must have thought the gods had answered his prayers when Lord Tywin Lannister appeared before the gates of King's Landing with an army twelve thousand strong, professing loyalty. So the mad king had ordered his last mad act. He had opened his city to the lions at the gate.

“Treachery was a coin the Targaryens knew well,” Robert said. The anger was building in him again. “Lannister paid them back in kind. It was no less than they deserved. I shall not trouble my sleep over it.”

“You were not there,” Ned said, bitterness in his voice. Troubled sleep was no stranger to him. He had lived his lies for fourteen years, yet they still haunted him at night. “There was no honor in that conquest.”

“The Others take your honor!” Robert swore. “What did any Targaryen ever know of honor? Go down into your crypt and ask Lyanna about the dragon’s honor!”

Eddard II, p. 110 US UK paperback edition.

This quote is well known, but upon re-reading it, I felt that there's was something else to see here, that might have been overlooked. Maybe it's been pointed out before? In any case, I've no knowledge of it....

I don't think the 'lies' Eddard refers to only concern Jon. Jon is included, yes. But, the bigger lies, the ones that truly haunt him, imo, are those concerning the nature of the rebellion itself.

It's the use of the word conquest to describe the sack that strikes me as...odd. KL, as Ned himself points out a bit further up, was taken by treachery. The King didn't know his own death was standing right behind him. He opened the gates, believing the city saved. This doesn't sound much like a 'conquest' at all. To the word 'conquest' I attach the notion of 'victory' -- both, have quasi heroic connotations.

In the dictionary, in the definitions of 'conquest'/'conquer' the words 'to gain, take control,' are followed by 'by the use of force', 'through great effort', even 'to overcome obstacles'.

...the word seems ill chosen for the Sack of King's Landing -- yet it is still fitting enough, that it doesn't appear entirely out of place, at first glance.

there's is imo, an intentional double entender here, a hint that there was a lot more going on than just lovers eloping. It's almost as if Ned was not referring sorely to the sack, but in fact, to the entire Rebellion. As if, he was saying 'there was no honor in this war'. As has been pointed out before, it's lies, plural that trouble Ned.

Considering the juxtaposition of the two sentences: ...they still haunted him at night. "there was no honor in that conquest." it seem logical that lies, and the conquest are related, at least thematically... This changes little in truth. For me it re-enforces the idea that the 'kidnap' was in fact a rescue, that Ned rose in rebellion believing ill of Rhaegar and discovered only too late, that the truth was very different from what he had imagined.

ETA: and I don't mean to say that Ned believes he shouldn't ever have rebelled -- only, that he might have come to realize that instead of waging war against the entire House Targaryen, he could have found an ally in Rhaegar....

EDIT2: it's actually the UK paperback edition :)

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Eddard II, p. 110 US paperback edition.

This quote is well known, but upon re-reading it, I felt that there's was something else to see here, that might have been overlooked. Maybe it's been pointed out before? In any case, I've no knowledge of it....

I don't think the 'lies' Eddard refers to only concern Jon. Jon is included, yes. But, the bigger lies, the ones that truly haunt him, imo, are those concerning the nature of the rebellion itself.

It's the use of the word conquest to describe the sack that strikes me as...odd. KL, as Ned himself points out a bit further up, was taken by treachery. The King didn't know his own death was standing right behind him. He opened the gates, believing the city saved. This doesn't sound much like a 'conquest' at all. To the word 'conquest' I attach the notion of 'victory' -- both, have quasi heroic connotations.

In the dictionary, in the definitions of 'conquest'/'conquer' the words 'to gain, take control,' are followed by 'by the use of force', 'through great effort', even 'to overcome obstacles'.

...the word seems ill chosen for the Sack of King's Landing -- yet it is still fitting enough, that it doesn't appear entirely out of place, at first glance.

there's is imo, an intentional double entender here, a hint that there was a lot more going on than just lovers eloping. It's almost as if Ned was not referring sorely to the sack, but in fact, to the entire Rebellion. As if, he was saying 'there was no honor in this war'. As has been pointed out before, it's lies, plural that trouble Ned.

Considering the juxtaposition of the two sentences: ...they still haunted him at night. "there was no honor in that conquest." it seem logical that lies, and the conquest are related, at least thematically... This changes little in truth. For me it re-enforces the idea that the 'kidnap' was in fact a rescue, that Ned rose in rebellion believing ill of Rhaegar and discovered only too late, that the truth was very different from what he had imagined.

ETA: and I don't mean to say that Ned believes he shouldn't ever have rebelled -- only, that he might have come to realize that instead of waging war against the entire House Targaryen, he could have found an ally in Rhaegar....

I've once suggested that perhaps, Ned discovered (told by Benjen) that Lyanna had gone with Rhaegar voluntarily, and that what had happened to Brandon and Rickard was never supposed to happen..

In addition, I suggested that Ned might have believed from that moment on (after having given the order of calling his banners) that there was a good possibility that Lyanna was pregnant, and that this only increased his fear (which he masked with anger) when he saw Roberts reaction to the deaths of Aegon and Rhaenys, causing him to leave practically immediately, to find Lyanna (and her potential child) before anyone else could.

Of course, that was based on the believe that Benjen had been involved in the Lyanna/Rhaegar affair, and I'm not sure if that can still work, with Lyanna having been at Harrenhal, and Benjen at Winterfell..

[markg171]

Eddard II, p. 110 US paperback edition.

This quote is well known, but upon re-reading it, I felt that there's was something else to see here, that might have been overlooked. Maybe it's been pointed out before? In any case, I've no knowledge of it....

I don't think the 'lies' Eddard refers to only concern Jon. Jon is included, yes. But, the bigger lies, the ones that truly haunt him, imo, are those concerning the nature of the rebellion itself.

It's the use of the word conquest to describe the sack that strikes me as...odd. KL, as Ned himself points out a bit further up, was taken by treachery. The King didn't know his own death was standing right behind him. He opened the gates, believing the city saved. This doesn't sound much like a 'conquest' at all. To the word 'conquest' I attach the notion of 'victory' -- both, have quasi heroic connotations.

In the dictionary, in the definitions of 'conquest'/'conquer' the words 'to gain, take control,' are followed by 'by the use of force', 'through great effort', even 'to overcome obstacles'.

...the word seems ill chosen for the Sack of King's Landing -- yet it is still fitting enough, that it doesn't appear entirely out of place, at first glance.

there's is imo, an intentional double entender here, a hint that there was a lot more going on than just lovers eloping. It's almost as if Ned was not referring sorely to the sack, but in fact, to the entire Rebellion. As if, he was saying 'there was no honor in this war'. As has been pointed out before, it's lies, plural that trouble Ned.

Considering the juxtaposition of the two sentences: ...they still haunted him at night. "there was no honor in that conquest." it seem logical that lies, and the conquest are related, at least thematically... This changes little in truth. For me it re-enforces the idea that the 'kidnap' was in fact a rescue, that Ned rose in rebellion believing ill of Rhaegar and discovered only too late, that the truth was very different from what he had imagined.

ETA: and I don't mean to say that Ned believes he shouldn't ever have rebelled -- only, that he might have come to realize that instead of waging war against the entire House Targaryen, he could have found an ally in Rhaegar....

I've always wondered about this myself. Ned must have been in the city for a few days before Robert could have arrived. It seems logical that he therefore partook in the sack as well, seeing as he arrived there only slightly after Tywin did, and therefore arrived as the sack was taking place. Ned even speaks as though he has first hand knowledge of what happened, indicating he fought as well.

So I think part of it could be that he feels guilty for partaking in that senseless slaughter. It also serves to show where his hatred of killing children comes from, as he had no idea that Tywin had killed Aegon and Rhaenys until he presented the bodies to Robert. Yet when Ned saw them he freaked out. I think he might have had to kill some kids when he helped take over the city, and this has haunted him ever since and why he's so against it. He's ashamed of what he had to do, hence why there was no honor in taking KL.

[The Twinslayer]

Eddard II, p. 110 US paperback edition.

This quote is well known, but upon re-reading it, I felt that there's was something else to see here, that might have been overlooked. Maybe it's been pointed out before? In any case, I've no knowledge of it....

I don't think the 'lies' Eddard refers to only concern Jon. Jon is included, yes. But, the bigger lies, the ones that truly haunt him, imo, are those concerning the nature of the rebellion itself.

I think we are supposed to believe that at least some of the lies Ned lived for the last 14 years (since the Sack) have to do with being forced to cover for what the Lannisters had done. Ned and Jon Arryn were both there when Tywin presented the dead children to Robert. Then, to make peace with Dorne, they had to lie about it. Here is Prince Oberyn:

"Dwarf," said the Red Viper, in a tone grown markedly less cordial, "spare me your Lannister lies. Is it sheep you take us for, or fools?"

And:

"Jon Arryn came to Sunspear the year after Robert took the throne, and you can be sure he was questioned closely. Him, and a hundred more."

Ned does not like being a party to these "Lannister lies."

[sj4iy]

I think we are supposed to believe that at least some of the lies Ned lived for the last 14 years (since the Sack) have to do with being forced to cover for what the Lannisters had done. Ned and Jon Arryn were both there when Tywin presented the dead children to Robert. Then, to make peace with Dorne, they had to lie about it. Here is Prince Oberyn:

"Dwarf," said the Red Viper, in a tone grown markedly less cordial, "spare me your Lannister lies. Is it sheep you take us for, or fools?"

And:

"Jon Arryn came to Sunspear the year after Robert took the throne, and you can be sure he was questioned closely. Him, and a hundred more."

Ned does not like being a party to these "Lannister lies."

What "Lannister lies"? There's absolutely nothing that Ned has been party to in regards to the Lannisters. He dislikes them and has nothing to do with them, so I'm not even sure where this comes from.

[The Twinslayer]

What "Lannister lies"? There's absolutely nothing that Ned has been party to in regards to the Lannisters. He dislikes them and has nothing to do with them, so I'm not even sure where this comes from.

The "Lannister lies" that Oberyn is talking about have to do with a conspiracy to conceal Tywin's role in the deaths of Elia and her children. Robert is fine with it from the beginning. Ned is not, and he leaves King's Landing in a fury.

Jon Arryn is brought into the conspiracy pretty quickly, and even though his House motto is "High as Honor" he is the one who has to go to Dorne and sell the lies to Doran.

Meanwhile, Ned reconciles with Robert over their shared grief at the death of Lyanna. It isn't clear when he joins the conspiracy, but at some point he does because he lets everyone think he returned home a conquering hero while he has doubts about how heroic the conquest was. He never spills the beans publicly about Tywin's role and he has to go along publicly with the act -- even waiting fourteen years to tell Robert about Jaime sitting the Iron Throne, and eventually betrothing his daughter to Tywin's grandson.

I think this is all very haunting to Ned. If he met Dany and she accused him of being one of the Usurper's Dogs, along with Tywin, he would want to disaccociate himself from Tywin but he couldn't do it (publicly, at least).

So yes, he is living the Lannister lies and he hates it.

[sj4iy]

The "Lannister lies" that Oberyn is talking about have to do with a conspiracy to conceal Tywin's role in the deaths of Elia and her children. Robert is fine with it from the beginning. Ned is not, and he leaves King's Landing in a fury.

Jon Arryn is brought into the conspiracy pretty quickly, and even though his House motto is "High as Honor" he is the one who has to go to Dorne and sell the lies to Doran.

Meanwhile, Ned reconciles with Robert over their shared grief at the death of Lyanna. It isn't clear when he joins the conspiracy, but at some point he does because he lets everyone think he returned home a conquering hero while he has doubts about how heroic the conquest was. He never spills the beans publicly about Tywin's role and he has to go along publicly with the act -- even waiting fourteen years to tell Robert about Jaime sitting the Iron Throne, and eventually betrothing his daughter to Tywin's grandson.

I think this is all very haunting to Ned. If he met Dany and she accused him of being one of the Usurper's Dogs, along with Tywin, he would want to disaccociate himself from Tywin but he couldn't do it (publicly, at least).

So yes, he is living the Lannister lies and he hates it.

Uh, there's no cover-up. It's well known that Lannister men killed Elia and her children. Ned didn't cover up a damn thing. He named it murder and even rode out after arguing with Robert.

You're really clutching at straws if you honestly think that Ned would condone the Lannisters' actions and cover it up. That's pretty ridiculous, tbh.

[aDanceWithFlagons]

I think it encompasses all of it. The sack of King's Landing is more horroric than the battles during the war. It had to be done- without the sack, conquest is unfinished. But King's Landing's people were murdered and raped unnecessarily. The king and any soldiers defending him should have been the target, but the bloodlust spread to the citizens, including women and children. The Targ children are at the forefront because they are pushed in Ned's face as a necessity to finish the conquest and he is very much a leader of said conquest.

[The Twinslayer]

Uh, there's no cover-up. It's well known that Lannister men killed Elia and her children. Ned didn't cover up a damn thing. He named it murder and even rode out after arguing with Robert.

You're really clutching at straws if you honestly think that Ned would condone the Lannisters' actions and cover it up. That's pretty ridiculous, tbh.

I am afraid you have missed the entire point of Oberyn Martel's role in ASOS. It is all about the cover up.

Oberyn tells Tyrion he came for justice for Elia and that he does not believe the lies Jon Arryn told to Doran. These are the lies that exonerated Tywin in Elia's death. Then, when Tyrion discusses it with Tywin, and says that Oberyn knows the truth, Tywin says "He knows nothing. He has heard tales. Stable gossip and kitchen calumnies. He has no proof." Tywin then says he is going to keep Gregor out of sight until Oberyn leaves and that they need to blame it all on Amory Lorch -- because Lorch is dead.

These are the Lannister lies. And when Robert got into bed with the Lannisters, Jon Arryn and Ned had to do the same.

[BrianBoru]

I have a question about the ToJ showdown, that somebody might help me with!

First off, I'm all for R+L=J; apart from all the evidence for it, it makes sense as a story, which is probably the best proof! I understand why the KG were at the ToJ. What I don't quite understand is the reaction of the KG to Ned.

The rebellion was led principally by the Arryns, Starks, Tullys and Baratheons. The Lannisters stood on the sidelines. The Tyrells were on the side of the Targaryens, but their actions betray a certain lack of enthusiasm. The Martells sided with the Targaryens, because of Elia and her Targ-Martell children.

By the time Ned arrives at the ToJ, the Lannisters had joined the rebellion for the sack of KL. The Tyrells had bent the knee to "the Usurper" at Storm's End. With Elia and her children dead, the Martells no longer have any interest/stake in the Targ dynasty.

As far as the KG are concerned, King Jon I Targaryen has no major allies.

And then Ned rolls up. At this point, Jon's family consists:

1. His grandmother, Rhaella, fled to Dragonstone, pregnant

2. His uncle Viserys, a boy of seven, fled to Dragonstone

3. His mother, Lyanna, dying

4. His uncle, Eddard, Warden of the North

5. His uncle, Benjen, Night's Watch

So Eddard, a powerful Lord Paramount, arrives at the doorstep of the ToJ. As far as the KG are concerned, Ned's nephew is the King. Why don't they tell him? Not only do the Starks now have a stake in the Targ dynasty, but the Targs themselves are seriously depleted; Jon would be raised under Stark influence and Ned would be the prime candidate to be Regent for the young Jon. At the very least, they could cause division amongst the Usurper's allies. But no, they draw swords against Ned, as if they're going to kill every one of the Usurper's allies and armies sent against them...

Why didn't the KG say: "Hey Ned, come see your nephew, our King. You wanna be Regent?"