Sympathy for the Devils (or losers)

[C.T. Phipps]

This book has a massive collection of people who got stomped on by history:

The Blackfyres
The Reynes
The original Kings of Westeros
Rhaenyra and her family

And so on.

So, what families do you have sympathy for which didn't win the Game of Thrones and why?

Who do you think had just cause who lost?

Who do you think sucked who won?

Who do you think is wrongly maligned by history?

[The Wolves]

I only feel sorry for Rhaenyra and her family she was the heir to the Iron Throne and her half brother and step mother stole the throne from her, she died thinking all but one of her children was dead and she was murdered in front of her child. Aliscent and Aegon II deserved their fate and bloodline deserved to be wiped out.

I don't pity the Blackfyres at all they had no business to that ugly chair, just because you think you would be better than someone at something doesn't mean that you have the right to go interrupting and destroying peoples lives. The Blackfyres deserved their fate.

The Tarbecks and Reynes who were rebelling deserved to be put down but the innocent servents, and women and children did not deserve to die.

Rhaegar and his wife, children, and brother and sister did not deserve their fates Aerys is the only Targaryen who should have died during Roberts's Rebellion.

[Gonzalo]

Robar II Royce

[SeanF]

I feel sorry for Garin and the Rhoynar; Alexi Mazor and the people of Sarnor; Robar Royce and the First Men. They all lost everything, when they deserved to win.

[SeanF]

I certainly feel sorry for Rhaenyra to an extent. But, her behaviour in power was appalling, and at least her side of the dynasty won in the end.

Horrible though she was, Alicent Hightower lost everything. She ended in captivity, and had to endure the deaths of her children and grandchildren. And, it was all her own fault.

[OmnomnomPomelo]

Only for the Gardeners and maybe Durrandons, so the "original kings".

I don't feel any sorry for Rhaenyra and the Targaryens of her age. They invaded Westeros, took their traditions to make the male descendant the heir of the father, then Viserys fucked up everything coz he loved his daughter so much that wanted to crown her, so in my opinion Viserys was as bad a king as Maegor. Aegon wanted the Iron Throne coz he was the son who inherits, and Rhaenyra was a spoiled daughter who was able to put her whole family on stake for the throne. Don't feel any sorry for her. The best solution would be a Great Council to choose the monarch, but both of them (as every Targaryen) were so freakin ambitious and greedy.

The Blackfyre case is a more interesting one to me. Daemon was born bastard of 2 Targaryens and then legitimized, and it's not sure that Daeron was the son of Aegon so he could be a bastard of Aemon and in this case Daemon should have took the throne. But I think we'll never know that Aegon or Aemon was the father of Daeron. But don't feel sorry for them.

And the Reynes were some ambitious guys too who mocked the golden lion and wanted their place as the great house of the Westerlands etc. I like Tywin, one of my favourite characters, but he hit them way so hard.

[Dofs]

Definitely the original kings of Westeros, except for Hoares. Also, Roynar and then all those nations destroyed by Dothraki.

[C.T. Phipps]

Definitely the original kings of Westeros, except for Hoares. Also, Roynar and then all those nations destroyed by Dothraki.

I didn't have much sympathy for them on my end.

Aegon was pretty gentle with most of them.

I am stunned at the stupidity of the Storm's Enders. In real-life, there was a period where killing a messenger was considered a blasphemy of the highest order, akin to Westeros and guest-right. The event from 300 happened in real-life (about the only part of history which was accurate, ironically, other than the end) but they ended up apologizing with grand gifts in order to try to work off the sheer disgust they evoked in their allies.

What did the Old King THINK was going to happen when he sent the Targs their messenger's hands? Did they just not get Aegon viewed Orys as his brother?

[Biter the Gallant]

I like the Blackfyres. Yes, they were rebels, but otherwise likely the most chivalrous-type family in this universe, i really feel sorry for them, especially considering the treacherous ways they were killed, one after another. Except for Maelys the Monstrous, but he is a cool brute villain. I do not think that they would have been worse than the average Targaryen monarchs on the long run.

Rhaenyra was a horrible and bad person, who just got what she deserved (I know that she was the rightful claimant, but it was an awful decision on her father's part to name her his heir). Nothing good would come out of her rule.

I feel a bit of pity for Argilac the Arrogant.

And Garin also has some tragic greatness in him.

[C.T. Phipps]

I like the Blackfyres. Yes, they were rebels, but otherwise likely the most chivalrous-type family in this universe, i really feel sorry for them, especially considering the treacherous ways they were killed, one after another. Except for Maelys the Monstrous, but he is a cool brute villain. I do not think that they would have been worse than the average Targaryen monarchs on the long run.

I actually think the Blackfyres got handled reasonably gently by both Bloodraven and his brother. Daemon the Second, after all, was nicely put up in King's Landing rather than executed.

Bittersteel, of course, hated Daemon II and didn't hesitate to crown his own replacement.

I wish we'd gotten more on Daemon II and Bittersteel's relationship because that must have infuriated the Conan EXPY. A guy who masterminds overthrowing a King because he's weak only to get a musically inclined fop as Daemon's heir.

The Blackfyres don't understand the definition of insanity, it seems.

Rhaenyra was a horrible and bad person, who just got what she deserved (I know that she was the rightful claimant, but it was an awful decision on her father's part to name her his heir). Nothing good would come out of her rule.

I feel a bit of pity for Argilac the Arrogant.

And Garin also has some tragic greatness in him.

I confess, I'd be on her side during this. It was a blatant act of usurption on part of her brothers and every bit as treasonous as Renlys.

Alicent should have been sent away when her treason became plain with her children fostered with Rhaenyra.

[Aemond's Eye]

I certainly feel sorry for Rhaenyra to an extent. But, her behaviour in power was appalling, and at least her side of the dynasty won in the end.

Horrible though she was, Alicent Hightower lost everything. She ended in captivity, and had to endure the deaths of her children and grandchildren. And, it was all her own fault.

Rhaenyra's behaviour whilst ruling King's Landing might not have been great, but the loss of her father, her stillborn, the loss of her child and numerous betrayals had all taken a heavy metal toll.

Had Hugh the Hammer and Ulf not defected, or the coffers of the crown not been emptied before Aegon II's regime "abandoned" the city then I think her behaviour isn't as "bad," nor does she eventually lose her life in the way she did. (Without the defections she wouldn't have called for Addam Velaryon or Nettles to be locked up/executed, and wouldn't have lost the support of Corlys. Without the coffers being emptied she wouldn't have had to quickly raise taxes and lose the support of the people.)

[Biter the Gallant]

I actually think the Blackfyres got handled reasonably gently by both Bloodraven and his brother. Daemon the Second, after all, was nicely put up in King's Landing rather than executed.

Bittersteel, of course, hated Daemon II and didn't hesitate to crown his own replacement.

I wish we'd gotten more on Daemon II and Bittersteel's relationship because that must have infuriated the Conan EXPY. A guy who masterminds overthrowing a King because he's weak only to get a musically inclined fop as Daemon's heir.

The Blackfyres don't understand the definition of insanity, it seems.

I confess, I'd be on her side during this. It was a blatant act of usurption on part of her brothers and every bit as treasonous as Renlys.

Alicent should have been sent away when her treason became plain with her children fostered with Rhaenyra.

I agree that killing Daemon I Blackfyre was necessary (though shooting down his sons just to trap him... arguable), and Daemon III. died in a normal battle duel. But murdering Aenys Blackfyre was treason, breaking of guest right and kinslaying combined (and I even doubt that Bloodraven was really acting in this case "for the Realm"- he could not hope to have too much future under a Blackfyre regime, so it was simply in his own interests to murder him). A lot of unnecesary bloodshed was caused by Daemon I's pride and hunger for power, and I do not say that they were "good guys", just that I can not really loath them (especially Daemon I's descendants, whom likely sincerely believed that they were the rightful heirs of the throne).

I hope more details will be revealed in later Dunk and Egg stories, especially about the Third Blackfyre Rebellion.

[C.T. Phipps]

Rhaenyra's behaviour whilst ruling King's Landing might not have been great, but the loss of her father, her stillborn, the loss of her child and numerous betrayals had all taken a heavy metal toll.

Had Hugh the Hammer and Ulf not defected, or the coffers of the crown not been emptied before Aegon II's regime "abandoned" the city then I think her behaviour isn't as "bad," nor does she eventually lose her life in the way she did. (Without the defections she wouldn't have called for Addam Velaryon or Nettles to be locked up/executed, and wouldn't have lost the support of Corlys. Without the coffers being emptied she wouldn't have had to quickly raise taxes and lose the support of the people.)

I liked the King's Landing riots because they were a nice reminder to the Targaryens they weren't invincible. Rhaenyra had a very Cersei attitude the Smallfolk could be discounted and killed thousands.

However, her dragons died.

For whatever the cost the Smallfolk, that was the end of her power and she had to know it.

Targaryen arrogance at its finest.

[Creticus]

The event from 300 happened in real-life (about the only part of history which was accurate, ironically, other than the end) but they ended up apologizing with grand gifts in order to try to work off the sheer disgust they evoked in their allies.

The most hilarious part is when the Spartans sent envoys so that the Persians could even the score by killing them. To which the Persian response was, "Nuh-uh, we're not that stupid."

More on-topic, I'm sympathetic to Rhaenyra, the Rhoynar, and the Sarnori. Even if I don't think much of Garin the "Great."

[Aemond's Eye]

I liked the King's Landing riots because they were a nice reminder to the Targaryens they weren't invincible. Rhaenyra had a very Cersei attitude the Smallfolk could be discounted and killed thousands.

However, her dragons died.

For whatever the cost the Smallfolk, that was the end of her power and she had to know it.

Targaryen arrogance at its finest.

I read it less as arrogance and more her not really taking into account how bad a decision raising taxes etc was; she was only concentrating on refilling the coffers for the war effort and didn't account for the feelings of those living through it. But she didn't strike me as a narcissistic snob like Cersei.

I do think she'd have made better decisions had she not reached a point of no return in regards to paranoia of treachery. She'd previously been adored by lords and smallfolk alike,so I think she would have understood the importance of being loved by the smallfolk. (Especially when Aegon II didn't appear to be.)

[C.T. Phipps]

I agree that killing Daemon I Blackfyre was necessary (though shooting down his sons just to trap him... arguable), and Daemon III. died in a normal battle duel. But murdering Aenys Blackfyre was treason, breaking of guest right and kinslaying combined (and I even doubt that Bloodraven was really acting in this case "for the Realm"- he could not hope to have too much future under a Blackfyre regime, so it was simply in his own interests to murder him). A lot of unnecesary bloodshed was caused by Daemon I's pride and hunger for power, and I do not say that they were "good guys", just that I can not really loath them (especially Daemon I's descendants, whom likely sincerely believed that they were the rightful heirs of the throne).

I hope more details will be revealed in later Dunk and Egg stories, especially about the Third Blackfyre Rebellion.

I don't disagree with the Aenys bit, even though I have to wonder what sort of lunatic would consider the descendant of a bloodline guilty of treason four times over.

As for Daemon's children, they were there on the field of battle and combatants.

The only thing questionable is Brynden killed them himself.

Which, frankly, does highlight what a hypocritical thing kinslaying can be.

That they were coming for family Brynden loved and yet he couldn't fight them because of those blood ties.

[John Doe]

I am stunned at the stupidity of the Storm's Enders. In real-life, there was a period where killing a messenger was considered a blasphemy of the highest order, akin to Westeros and guest-right. The event from 300 happened in real-life (about the only part of history which was accurate, ironically, other than the end) but they ended up apologizing with grand gifts in order to try to work off the sheer disgust they evoked in their allies.

Really? The Athenians did the same.

[Aemond's Eye]

I agree that killing Daemon I Blackfyre was necessary (though shooting down his sons just to trap him... arguable), and Daemon III. died in a normal battle duel. But murdering Aenys Blackfyre was treason, breaking of guest right and kinslaying combined (and I even doubt that Bloodraven was really acting in this case "for the Realm"- he could not hope to have too much future under a Blackfyre regime, so it was simply in his own interests to murder him). A lot of unnecesary bloodshed was caused by Daemon I's pride and hunger for power, and I do not say that they were "good guys", just that I can not really loath them (especially Daemon I's descendants, whom likely sincerely believed that they were the rightful heirs of the throne).

I hope more details will be revealed in later Dunk and Egg stories, especially about the Third Blackfyre Rebellion.

I politely and wholeheartedly disagree with this bit. It might not have been in Brynden's interests fora Blackfyre to take the crown - it doesn't mean his reasons were entirely selfish. What would have happened to the remaining Targaryens and their loyalists under a Blackfyre regime? Or do you think Brynden was entirely selfish and didn't care about his brother, Daeron's, grandchildren or great grandchildren?

Brynden sacrificed his own honour to ensure that a Blackfyre couldn't take the throne via the council. The lack of detail leada me to believe we might find out more via Dunk & Egg, and that certain lords must have already been trying to secure votes for Aenys.

As for breaking guest right? I'm not entirely sure he did. Aenys was assured safe passage, but the moment he reached King's Landing he was arrested. It might be semantics but he was never technically a guest. (Though how you feel about that or breaking guest right in general probably plays a part in how serious you view that part.)

In any event Brynden's actions secured the throne for Aegon V, and prevented a Blackfyre from taking the throne. And I'd be surprised if Brynden expected Egg not to punish him. I believe he'd have done what he did knowing it could have led to his execution.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Argella Durrandon

Most Blackfyres (seriously, Bloodraven is the biggest arsehole between Tywin and some Dornishmen 150 years dead)

The Young Dragon

What did the Old King THINK was going to happen when he sent the Targs their messenger's hands? Did they just not get Aegon viewed Orys as his brother?

Well, it was pretty much the biggest insult Aegon could commit towards House Durrandon. Argilac offered him the Stormlands as an inheritance after all.

The Stormlords wouldn't have been pleased if Argilac had played the doormat.

[C.T. Phipps]

Really? The Athenians did the same.

I always liked that part of the story and get amused when people talk about the badassery of the Spartans.

Much of the Athenian reaction to Sparta consists of eye-rolling at their epic backpedaling.

Well, it was pretty much the biggest insult Aegon could commit towards House Durrandon. Argilac offered him the Stormlands as an inheritance after all.

The Stormlords wouldn't have been pleased if Argilac had played the doormat.

Rhaegar pointed out Argilac was offering him territory he didn't have to use him as a buffer state with his enemies. He also wasn't offering the Stormlands.

That went after Argilac was smashed to pieces and Orys offered to make his daughter his bride.