Sympathy for the Devils (or losers)

[Corvinus85]

I generally don't hold with conquerors, so I feel sorry for:

The children of the forest and the giants

The Rhoynar

The First Men, especially those of the Vale (Robar II Royce)

The line of the Gardener kings - it had bad kings, but also some great kings; it did not deserve to end in fire

Egg and his descendants (except for Aerys) - Egg's death was an indirect result of his failure at playing the game of thrones - he desperately wanted to have dragons in order to put down all the proud lords who opposed his policies. Also Egg allowing his sons to do what they wanted gave the realm Aerys II in the end.

[Winterfell is Burning]

I feel no sympathy for Rhaenyra, the Dance of the Dragons is a war without a "good" side, or one faction clearly more right than the other. Rhaenyra, Alicent, Aegon II and Daemon deserved what they got.

I feel no sympathy for the Blackfyres usually, but Aenys didn't deserve what he got.

Robar II Royce was also good.

Egg and his descendants (except for Aerys) - Egg's death was an indirect result of his failure at playing the game of thrones - he desperately wanted to have dragons in order to put down all the proud lords who opposed his policies. Also Egg allowing his sons to do what they wanted gave the realm Aerys II in the end.

Actually, TWOIAF showed that they all married against his will (or not married, in Daeron's case)

[Corvinus85]

Actually, TWOIAF showed that they all married against his will (or not married, in Daeron's case)

Well that's my point, he was soft on them. Furthermore, Jaeherys allowed his children to marry, and Egg, as the book says, "washed his hands of it in frustration." If he was more firm, maybe Duncan's heir by marriage with Lyonel's daughter would have been king instead of Aerys.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Rhaegar pointed out Argilac was offering him territory he didn't have to use him as a buffer state with his enemies. He also wasn't offering the Stormlands.

Argella was Argilac's heir. Her husband would be prince-consort and likely ruler in all but name after Argilac died of old age.

[SeanF]

I politely and wholeheartedly disagree with this bit. It might not have been in Brynden's interests fora Blackfyre to take the crown - it doesn't mean his reasons were entirely selfish. What would have happened to the remaining Targaryens and their loyalists under a Blackfyre regime? Or do you think Brynden was entirely selfish and didn't care about his brother, Daeron's, grandchildren or great grandchildren?

Brynden sacrificed his own honour to ensure that a Blackfyre couldn't take the throne via the council. The lack of detail leada me to believe we might find out more via Dunk & Egg, and that certain lords must have already been trying to secure votes for Aenys.

As for breaking guest right? I'm not entirely sure he did. Aenys was assured safe passage, but the moment he reached King's Landing he was arrested. It might be semantics but he was never technically a guest. (Though how you feel about that or breaking guest right in general probably plays a part in how serious you

view that part.)

In any event Brynden's actions secured the throne for Aegon V, and prevented a Blackfyre from taking the throne. And I'd be surprised if Brynden expected Egg not to punish him. I believe he'd have done what he did knowing it could have led to his execution.

Murdering someone you've given safe-conduct to is a shitty action both in our world and theirs.

[C.T. Phipps]

Argella was Argilac's heir. Her husband would be prince-consort and likely ruler in all but name after Argilac died of old age.

Clearly, Aegon didn't see it that way and was actually insulted by the offer first.

[Aemond's Eye]

Murdering someone you've given safe-conduct to is a shitty action both in our world and theirs.

Never suggested it was honourable - just that I understand why he did it. I just don't agree that he sacrificed his own honour for entirely selfish reasons. I so think Brynden did, on the whole, care about his family. (I stress "family," mind, rather than relatives in general.)

[Barrick Eddon]

Robar II Royce :bawl: , I hope they end up the rulers of The Vale in the end .

Rhoynar

Sarnori . Someone needs to destroy those Dotrhaki bastards.

[SeanF]

Clearly, Aegon didn't see it that way and was actually insulted by the offer first.

It seems a very fair offer to me. Aegon is bound to aid his father-in-law, but can expect to inherit the rule of the Stormlands, in due course. But the big problem would be a succession battle between any children by his sisters, and any children by Argella.

[Chaircat Meow]

Never suggested it was honourable - just that I understand why he did it. I just don't agree that he sacrificed his own honour for entirely selfish reasons. I so think Brynden did, on the whole, care about his family. (I stress "family," mind, rather than relatives in general.)

I think you're right. I don't think Bloodraven works to advance himself.

[The hairy bear]

I don't disagree with the Aenys bit, even though I have to wonder what sort of lunatic would consider the descendant of a bloodline guilty of treason four times over.

My sort, I guess. The sins of his father shouldn't be his. He was just a baby when Daemon died. As far as we know, he didn't participate in any uprising against the legitimate kings, and intended to gain his throne peacefully by convincing most of the lords.

And he has a claim, considering that his father was legitimated by a degree of a king. Egg was elected being the the 4t son of the 4th son of the 1st son of Aegon IV. Aenys was the 5th son of the 2nd son of Aegon IV.

Never suggested it was honourable - just that I understand why he did it. I just don't agree that he sacrificed his own honour for entirely selfish reasons. I so think Brynden did, on the whole, care about his family. (I stress "family," mind, rather than relatives in general.)

Caring for your family is also selfishness. Not being selfish would be caring for everybody's families.

Aenys was trying to convince most of the lords of the realms that he should be king, and Brynden killed him to prevent him from doing that. So, he feared that most of the lords wouldn't agree with his opinion, and acted preemtively. He decided that only his opinion mattered. If that's not selfishness, I don't know what it is.

[Aemond's Eye]

My sort, I guess. The sins of the father are theirs, but we should judge the son by themselves. Come on, he was just a baby when his father died. As far as we know, he didn't participate in any uprising against the legitimate kings, and intended to gain his throne peacefully by convincing most of the lords.

And he has a claim, considering that his father was legitimated by a degree of a king. Egg was elected being the the 4t son of the 4th son of the 1st son of Aegon IV. Aenys was the 5th son of the 2nd son of Aegon IV.

Caring for your family is also selfishness. Not being selfish would be caring for everybody's families.

Aenys was trying to convince most of the lords of the realms that he should be king, and Brynden killed him to prevent him from doing that. So, he feared that most of the lords wouldn't agree with his opinion, and acted preemtively. He decided that only his opinion mattered. If that's not selfishness, I don't know what it is.

The original comment that I quoted suggested that Brynden killed him simply because it was in his own interests. But Brynden wasn't a fool, and I doubt he'd have expected a pardon from Aegon V for it - what he did was in the interests of his family, and possibly to prevent another war with the Blackfyres within a few years. Selfish? To a degree. Purely for his own benefit? Not really.

[King Brandon Ice Eyes]

The only Blackfyre I felt sorry for was the Violinist. He was gullible and out of his league and charming and friendly as well.

The best thing about the Dance of Dragons was the gruesome fates of the adult Targaryens. So absolutely no sorry for Rhaenyra. Daemon should have suffered much more though.

[C.T. Phipps]

My sort, I guess. The sins of his father shouldn't be his. He was just a baby when Daemon died. As far as we know, he didn't participate in any uprising against the legitimate kings, and intended to gain his throne peacefully by convincing most of the lords.

And he has a claim, considering that his father was legitimated by a degree of a king. Egg was elected being the the 4t son of the 4th son of the 1st son of Aegon IV. Aenys was the 5th son of the 2nd son of Aegon IV.

The sins of the father as much his to shoulder when it is the virtues of the father which would make him King. He and his family have no right to inheritance they attempted to steal through murder and treason. He shouldn't be executed for his family's crimes but he has no right to expect consideration anymore than Cain's child should Abel's family farm go into dispute amongst his heirs.

[The hairy bear]

The original comment that I quoted suggested that Brynden killed him simply because it was in his own interests. But Brynden wasn't a fool, and I doubt he'd have expected a pardon from Aegon V for it - what he did was in the interests of his family, and possibly to prevent another war with the Blackfyres within a few years. Selfish? To a degree. Purely for his own benefit? Not really.

I fully agree that Bloodraven didn't expect a pardon. Still, I consider that he did was selfish. He conciously decided that before seeing a Blackfyre in the throne, he prefered to be sent to the Wall (or even risk execution).

The sins of the father as much his to shoulder when it is the virtues of the father which would make him King. He and his family have no right to inheritance they attempted to steal through murder and treason. He shouldn't be executed for his family's crimes but he has no right to expect consideration anymore than Cain's child should Abel's family farm go into dispute amongst his heirs.

This argument holds little weight in a monarchy that crowned Aegon III, but still considers both his parents traitors and usurpers.

[Dofs]

Aegon was pretty gentle with most of them.

I am stunned at the stupidity of the Storm's Enders. In real-life, there was a period where killing a messenger was considered a blasphemy of the highest order, akin to Westeros and guest-right. The event from 300 happened in real-life (about the only part of history which was accurate, ironically, other than the end) but they ended up apologizing with grand gifts in order to try to work off the sheer disgust they evoked in their allies.

What did the Old King THINK was going to happen when he sent the Targs their messenger's hands? Did they just not get Aegon viewed Orys as his brother?

He was pretty gentle but the Field of Fire was a pure war crime.

I agree that Argilac's act was stupid. But I still feel sympathy for him and it's sad that his line got wiped out and Storm End was given to Orys Baratheon instead. I feel no sympathy for Orys when his hand was cut off - he got what was coming to him.

And anyway Argilac's act is irrelevant for the Field of Fire and Gardener's being wiped out, for thousands of men from Reach and Westerlands burning, for the Reach, the Vale, Westerlands and the North being conquered.

[SeanF]

He was pretty gentle but the Field of Fire was a pure war crime.

I agree that Argilac's act was stupid. But I still feel sympathy for him and it's sad that his line got wiped out and Storm End was given to Orys Baratheon instead. I feel no sympathy for Orys when his hand was cut off - he got what was coming to him.

And anyway Argilac's act is irrelevant for the Field of Fire and Gardener's being wiped out, for thousands of men from Reach and Westerlands burning, for the Reach, the Vale, Westerlands and the North being conquered.

Unless one's arguing that any war of conquest is a crime (a reasonable position for us, but not shared in-universe) I don't see anything particularly deplorable about the Field of Fire.

[C.T. Phipps]

This argument holds little weight in a monarchy that crowned Aegon III, but still considers both his parents traitors and usurpers.

Aegon the Third's supporters won the war, however.

He just didn't reverse the previous King's decrees.

Mostly because he was a child for most of his reign.

[Winterfell is Burning]

Well that's my point, he was soft on them. Furthermore, Jaeherys allowed his children to marry, and Egg, as the book says, "washed his hands of it in frustration." If he was more firm, maybe Duncan's heir by marriage with Lyonel's daughter would have been king instead of Aerys.

From what I understood, Duncan simply refused to marry anyone but Jenny. He might even have done it before telling his father, but I might be confusing him with Jaehaerys.

[teemo]

I certainly feel sorry for Rhaenyra to an extent. But, her behaviour in power was appalling, and at least her side of the dynasty won in the end.

Horrible though she was, Alicent Hightower lost everything. She ended in captivity, and had to endure the deaths of her children and grandchildren. And, it was all her own fault.

Yeah, Alicent was not sympathetic of a character to me at all, but she really did get hit hard. But like you said, it really was all of her fault. She was incredibly greedy, conniving, and the way she laughed about Tumbleton makes me sick. Both sides were absolutely disgusting in power during that war.