Could the First Men have held off the Andals? If so, how?

[joluoto2]

The Andals struck early in places where there was no strong FM kingdom, The Vale only united when the Andals already were there, and while there was a king in the Riverlands (Mudd) he didn't control all of it.

The First Men were not unified, and usually prepared to ally with Andals to fight regional allies.

The Andals had technological superiority (steel and writing), however the First Men did have a numerical advantage they failed to capitalize on.

Where there existed strong First Men kingdoms the solution to the Andal problem did always sooner or later end with a settlement with the old dynasty (Lannister and Gardener especially, but even Durrendon after many generations of fighting).

First Men society do not seem to be culturally prepared to resist the Andal invasions. Note that several First Men houses quite quickly after the Andals settled started to go over to the Seven. Even though they had numerical advantage, and if they really wanted they probably could have hold on to the Old Gods and maybe in time assimilate the Andals instead.

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

Actually, Benedict the Just solved that issue first. A Bracken-Blackwood bastard, therefore a First Man.

Good call. Another Andal house got control after them though.

[Lee-Sensei]

That's cultural, not militarily.

Militarily speaking, six out of eight regions successfully defended themselves and the seventh reestablished First Men rule pretty quickly. Only the Vale was successfully conquered and held by the Andals.

The southrons probably have more andal blood then first men blood and are culturally andals too. I think it's safe to call them andals after over 6000 years of it.

[BRANDON GREYSTARK]

No .

[SeanF]

The southrons probably have more andal blood then first men blood and are culturally andals too. I think it's safe to call them andals after over 6000 years of it.

The Norman, Danish (and even Saxon) invasions of England are similar. Genetically, the waves of invaders had little impact, given their small numbers, relative to the established population. culturally, they had a huge impact.

[OmnomnomPomelo]

I think they would hold the Andals back for a long time, but the Andals were coming and coming one ship after another. However the Andals conquered the Vale and the Riverlands with force and a bloodbath, and when they reached the Westerlands, the Stormlands and the Reach the situation turned around and in they married into the Houses of the Firsts. And when they reached Dorne there were only a few of them who didn't even try to fight. So in my opinion the Andals arrived with an intent to conquer whole Westeros, but after the Vale and the Riverlands they noticed that it's not that easy, lost a lot of men and just wanted live with the First Men in peace, and the First Men gave up their religion for this peace.

[Ramsay's Penguins]

Benedict is a Bracken Blackwood bastard, with his mother being half Bracken/half Andal and his father half Blackwood/half Andal. So an Andal King.

The Andal migration took time. It's not the Rhoynar who landed suddenly or the Targaryens who watched and waited and became Westerosi. It's taking the Finger, the Sisters then the Vale. It's taking Estermont and Tarth and Sharp Point, awaiting and then taking Massey's Hook and sailing up the river Slayne and the Trident. Most landed in the Vale, but those formed houses that are now in the riverlands and Westerlands too. Likely an Andal who landed in the stormlands now has a house in the westerlands (Drox the Corpse Maker sounds like he founded House Drox right?). The travelled up rivers and they kept coming. That's the only reason they won. And they never truly won either, the North, Crackclaw and Red Mountains are were all still FM areas, and that's half the region. For every major Andal house that exists, four major FM houses do.

The Andal invasion just gave way to knighthoods, more towns and the Faith of the Seven. First Men blood with Andal customs.

[James Arryn]

Well, they did. North, Westerlands, Iron Islands, Reach, Stormlands and Dorne are First Men regions. Only the Vale and the Riverlands were conquered and for the Riverlands it's debatable, what with 90% of all Riverkings being First Men and the Riverlands later being part of the First Men Stormlands and Iron Islands.

What? No.

Only the North avoided Andal conquest. Dorne was Andal but got an infusion of Rhoynar.

[James Arryn]

The Norman, Danish (and even Saxon) invasions of England are similar. Genetically, the waves of invaders had little impact, given their small numbers, relative to the established population. culturally, they had a huge impact.

The Saxon genetic impact is credited variously from 35-40% to 'apartheid'. The others, agreed, but the Germanic influx was huge across the board.

[Ramsay's Penguins]

What? No.

Only the North avoided Andal conquest. Dorne was Andal but got an infusion of Rhoynar.

The North has as many Andal marriages as the south. If marriages means conquering then the North would also be conquered. The Vale was petty kings before and after an Andal Arryn King. The Riverlands had FM kings, but then mixed Andal/FM kings. Reach had FM King, remained FM kings. Stormlands had FM King, remained FM King, just lost lots of Land to Andals, and had to win it back. Dorne had Andals along the Greenblood, but the Red mountains were FM. Iron Islands were invaded by Andals, but in the end the half Andal, half Ironborn (FM?) kings ruled. Westerlands FM queen, with Andal husband.

Andal blood don't seem to magical, so Westeros is pretty much half Andal and half First Men when blood is concerned. There was little Andal conquest, just Andals fighting FM, and because of constant Andal pressure, their customs won in the south.

[James Arryn]

The North has as many Andal marriages as the south. If marriages means conquering then the North would also be conquered. The Vale was petty kings before and after an Andal Arryn King. The Riverlands had FM kings, but then mixed Andal/FM kings. Reach had FM King, remained FM kings. Stormlands had FM King, remained FM King, just lost lots of Land to Andals, and had to win it back. Dorne had Andals along the Greenblood, but the Red mountains were FM. Iron Islands were invaded by Andals, but in the end the half Andal, half Ironborn (FM?) kings ruled. Westerlands FM queen, with Andal husband.

Andal blood don't seem to magical, so Westeros is pretty much half Andal and half First Men when blood is concerned. There was little Andal conquest, just Andals fighting FM, and because of constant Andal pressure, their customs won in the south.

It's explicitly stated in the WB that only the North held off the Andal Conquest, and FM houses elsewhere only survived by bending the knee.

The iron islands got rid of the religion, not the blood.

[SeanF]

The Saxon genetic impact is credited variously from 35-40% to 'apartheid'. The others, agreed, but the Germanic influx was huge across the board.

I think historians are in dispute about that. The traditional view was that the Roman-British population was driven West by the Saxons. There's more evidence now for their survival in the East, and for their adoption of Saxon culture, even before the end of Roman rule.

Interestingly, the first three Kings of Wessex (Cerdic, Cynric, Caewlin) all had British names, suggesting it may have begun as a British kingdom, which gradually adopted the new culture, similar to the Reach or Stormlands.

[Mithras]

The North has as many Andal marriages as the south. If marriages means conquering then the North would also be conquered.

Starks didnot marry below the Neck except Royces (at least in the last two centuries).

[James Arryn]

I think historians are in dispute about that. The traditional view was that the Roman-British population was driven West by the Saxons. There's more evidence now for their survival in the East, and for their adoption of Saxon culture, even before the end of Roman rule.

Interestingly, the first three Kings of Wessex (Cerdic, Cynric, Caewlin) all had British names, suggesting it may have begun as a British kingdom, which gradually adopted the new culture, similar to the Reach or Stormlands.

The dispute was accounted for in the range I gave. Myers (sp?) contention re: Cerdic is also contentious, but I agree it provides for interesting theorization. Last I saw it mentioned was in a vaguely Arthurian hypothesis, for which I am always up.

[Ramsay's Penguins]

It's explicitly stated in the WB that only the North held off the Andal Conquest, and FM houses elsewhere only survived by bending the knee.

The iron islands got rid of the religion, not the blood.

The world book may as well exist to glorify the Andal invasion. Everything is done in sevens, and I take everything with a pinch of salt. The world book says so, but then goes against what is just said. The Gardeners made the Andals bend then knee, not the other way around. The Durrandons never bent no knee, the war just fizzled out. Lannisters never bent the knee either, simply married. Only in here Valea nd Riverlands did bending the knee work for the FM. And the north didn't even do that, the Andal culture, language, religion and technology all made their way up there. Westerosi are hybrids of Andals and FM, essentially. Blood means little in less when they look so similar too, only the powers that FM blood has sets the two races apart.

Starks didnot marry below the Neck except Royces (at least in the last two centuries).

My book was stolen and gift wrapped for Chrsitmas, but off the top of my head I can think of Blackwood, Corbray? And Arryn marriages too. Rogers as well (one Roger was ment to be a Royce, or both I can't recall). Tully as well. And Westerling and Manderly.

[Bennis of the Brown Shield]

I think historians are in dispute about that. The traditional view was that the Roman-British population was driven West by the Saxons. There's more evidence now for their survival in the East, and for their adoption of Saxon culture, even before the end of Roman rule.

Interestingly, the first three Kings of Wessex (Cerdic, Cynric, Caewlin) all had British names, suggesting it may have begun as a British kingdom, which gradually adopted the new culture, similar to the Reach or Stormlands.

Not just Saxons, the Angles migrated to England too. Those were the ones the place ended up being named after in the end.

As for the Westerosi you'd think that some sort of real conquest must have taken place for the Andals to be able to both completely replace the languages and religions of the First Men in the South, as well as managing to drive the Children of the Forest there into extinction. All of those things must have been pretty tall orders. Especially the language part, really.

I can't think of any historical example were a people has completely replaced their original language without being subjugated by the people talking the new language in some shape or form first... well, it probably happened here and there. But it can't have been common.

[Dofs]

The world book may as well exist to glorify the Andal invasion. Everything is done in sevens, and I take everything with a pinch of salt. The world book says so, but then goes against what is just said. The Gardeners made the Andals bend then knee, not the other way around. The Durrandons never bent no knee, the war just fizzled out. Lannisters never bent the knee either, simply married. Only in here Valea nd Riverlands did bending the knee work for the FM. And the north didn't even do that, the Andal culture, language, religion and technology all made their way up there. Westerosi are hybrids of Andals and FM, essentially. Blood means little in less when they look so similar too, only the powers that FM blood has sets the two races apart.

My book was stolen and gift wrapped for Chrsitmas, but off the top of my head I can think of Blackwood, Corbray? And Arryn marriages too. Rogers as well (one Roger was ment to be a Royce, or both I can't recall). Tully as well. And Westerling and Manderly.

Lannister marriage with the Andals wasn't also part of the dealing with Andals. They married with the Andals a long time after the Andal houses were established in the Westerlands only because a woman with Andal husband inherited CR at one point. It was said that Lannisters destroyed every Andal invasion that came to Westerlands, but then decided to just let them in and make them their bannermen so it too can be said that the Andals bend the knee to the Lannisters and not the other way around.

[Ramsay's Penguins]

Thanks Dofs! I imagine that the Lannisters had the Casterly Rock lands and surrounds (not the entire region, like Gardeners, Suarks and Durrandonds) but through Andal marriages they conquered the rest of the he Westerlands. There is quite a few major Andal Westerland houses, so I imagine they conquered them later on.

@Khaleesi did nothing wrong

I don't know how good runes were as a writing system, since they represent a single word or picture. So a language that can be written, spoken and read would be adapted. If a Stark wanted to send a raven they'd need to be in that language, so they adapted to it as such. But that makes a new question, did ravens just use written rune messages, or speak when they were used by FM and the Andals with their written language "killed" the speaking ravens and made them written messages? Are runes able to create an entire language? And the house system came with the Andals, and the North adapted to that, it's just their gods and way of life they kept the same. And even those were diluted.

[James Arryn]

The world book may as well exist to glorify the Andal invasion. Everything is done in sevens, and I take everything with a pinch of salt. The world book says so, but then goes against what is just said. The Gardeners made the Andals bend then knee, not the other way around. The Durrandons never bent no knee, the war just fizzled out. Lannisters never bent the knee either, simply married. Only in here Valea nd Riverlands did bending the knee work for the FM. And the north didn't even do that, the Andal culture, language, religion and technology all made their way up there. Westerosi are hybrids of Andals and FM, essentially. Blood means little in less when they look so similar too, only the powers that FM blood has sets the two races apart.

My book was stolen and gift wrapped for Chrsitmas, but off the top of my head I can think of Blackwood, Corbray? And Arryn marriages too. Rogers as well (one Roger was ment to be a Royce, or both I can't recall). Tully as well. And Westerling and Manderly.

If the WB is Andal propaganda, why does it talk about the Northerners hammering the Andal is invaders?

I've read others claiming it's Lannister propaganda...is it gonna devolve into being the propaganda for any counter-point we don't enjoy?

[Ramsay's Penguins]

If the WB is Andal propaganda, why does it talk about the Northerners hammering the Andal is invaders?

I've read others claiming it's Lannister propaganda...is it gonna devolve into being the propaganda for any counter-point we don't enjoy?

anti Japanese propoganda made by Americans didn't disacknowledge the events of Pearl Harbour. Some things are not so easily ignored. My point still stands.

And it is certainly was Tywin propoganda and Robert propaganda, that's what annoyed me about the format. Maester Sycophant-to-kings was painfully biased.