Civil rights for disabled people or some people don't find any accommodations reasonable

[karaddin]

Whatever the fuck issues you think I have with you (I don't - I take issue with what you say sometimes, not with you personally and this is the second time I've said this) is pretty fucking off topic for this thread and personal. I don't follow you around sniping at you. I posted in this thread because I didn't want to see a dogpile on Summah for the "inflammatory title" and because I felt like replying to the traffic lights thing.

[Summah]

Again peterbound, I'm not sure if you mean my example or Dr Pepper's, but you appear to be possibly using both as the "confused" example, you have no idea what the nature of my accommodations were, yet you persist in judging them (and the same can be said about Dr Pepper's example), you also have no idea what the specific purpose of those accommodations was or for what condition I have them, for me it had nothing to do with feeling welcome or anxious, though without one specific accommodation I would have been unable to attend that class, function for the rest of the day and would have had a great deal of difficulty getting home, and that was after personally making accommodations that only involved me. Dr Pepper was giving an example of looking for something specific in a health care provider's office, it did not seem to involve a request to make changes, but rather a search for a provider with whatever she was looking for, she may also receive accommodations at work, but as we don't know what they are specifically, neither of us is in a position to judge them and say they are reasonable or not. However you seem to be taking the position that any accommodation for a mental illness is not reasonable, which is a very unreasonable point of view.

Also mental illness does get ADA protection, however not every person with a mental illness qualifies, just as not every person with a physical illness or condition qualifies. The ADA is set up for each case to be it's own: first if the person qualifies as disabled and second if the accommodations are reasonable or if they will cause undue hardship. But these answers vary on a case by case basis, not just with the disabled individuals, but the job duties, company size and so on. So to use one of your examples, if lighting is so dim others have trouble seeing then it would cause undue hardship for the other employees, however replacing fluorescents with LEDs or putting someone in an office where they can control the lighting may be reasonable accommodations, depending on the specific situation. There is no blanket SCOTUS ruling that ADA accommodations are not available for mental illnesses.

Or perhaps we should do things your way and watch the employment rate of non-elderly, disabled adults go well below the 26% it's currently at.

On the issue of the audible crossings, I'm not sure there is actually consensus in the blind community to support those, as some have argued that it impairs the ability to hear traffic sounds and cross safely. This may have changed with new technology as most of the criticism I've heard and read has been based on how these worked 10 years ago, so it may be different now. However if the blind community does consider them an important safety feature then I think the safety issue overrides the annoyance of them (and yes I agree they're quite irritating), for the people unfortunate enough to live near a corner with those I suggest ear plugs and white/pink noise machines and if waking up or hearing the alarm is difficult there are alarm clocks with vibrating pads or flashing lights. I think because it's potentially a major safety issue then public access requires them if they are indeed important for safety, if it doesn't greatly impact safety (if for example blind people are able to cross and stay in the cross walk and cross at the correct time and be as safe by listening to traffic and using a cain as they are with the audible pedestrian signals) then the annoyance it causes other people should be taken more seriously, particular in residential areas.

[deleted01]

Drac,

Not trying to be funny here, but if you are in that environment, and know you're going to be in that situation, why not bring your own wheelchair?

Seems fairly reasonable.

I did look into it, but I can't afford one. I live in the UK, so the NHS would cover it, but the faff of going through anything like that if you're not completely unable to walk is not really worth it for a day or two. Our local council gets involved with awarding disability money and help, which makes things extra-messy. I believe you can hire them out, but again, expensive. And my car isn't wheelchair-friendly.

Fair point, though, and one I have considered.

[mormont]

[mod] Enough of the personal stuff, please. If you want to continue the discussion, discuss the issues - not each other. [/mod]

[MoIaF]

This. I have a lot of trouble standing for any length of time, but I hate to ask for any accommodations to be made. Not only does it draw attention to something I'd rather keep to myself, but it can inconvenience others, which I hate. I tend to keep it to myself, and suffer for it later.

Recently, though, I was stood in a line at an event, and asked if a wheelchair might be made available, or if I might be able to pop out of the queue to sit down, but hold my place. Neither option was allowed, but they did rush off to get me a normal chair, despite my protests that having a chair that I'd have to drag along as the queue moved on would be a huge inconvenience to all, as well as more damaging to my disability. People not listening to me is something I've found to be quite common once my disability becomes known.

I have kept a lot to myself because of that too. Although, as I've gotten older I've been more comfortable asking people for help when I need it and I know it won't inconvenience them too much. It's usually something like, can you read that for me because I can't see.

The waiting in line can be tough. I mean if you had the resources you could get a wheelchair but wheelchairs don't fit everywhere either. What do you do when it doesn't fit?

[deleted01]

I have kept a lot to myself because of that too. Although, as I've gotten older I've been more comfortable asking people for help when I need it and I know it won't inconvenience them too much. It's usually something like, can you read that for me because I can't see.

The waiting in line can be tough. I mean if you had the resources you could get a wheelchair but wheelchairs don't fit everywhere either. What do you do when it doesn't fit?

The event in question was also in London, which can be a bastard to navigate at the best of times. I did get a walking stick in the end, which I found humiliating at first, because even if they're looking on in sympathy or confusion, people will stare. That's not something I blame them for, it's just something I'm having to get used to.

Re the cost, my condition isn't recognised as a disability by the government. The effects are, but the condition itself is pretty rare, and so any process involving it is made 10x harder, as I have to explain what it actually is.

[Whitestripe]

Recently, though, I was stood in a line at an event, and asked if a wheelchair might be made available, or if I might be able to pop out of the queue to sit down, but hold my place. Neither option was allowed, but they did rush off to get me a normal chair, despite my protests that having a chair that I'd have to drag along as the queue moved on would be a huge inconvenience to all, as well as more damaging to my disability. People not listening to me is something I've found to be quite common once my disability becomes known.

Drac: Were you alone? If you were waiting at my venue, I would not mind if you stepped out, provided you had friends to keep your place for you. If you were alone, there would be no way I could have a staff person make sure your place was kept. Nor do I have a wheelchair on hand for patrons who may ask for one. (I have borrowed one from the health center when someone asked for one in advance.) If you were at my venue, a regular chair or a desk chair with wheels is probably the best way I could honor your request. (And I'd want to do something for you since you asked me for help) That said, I'd probably just let you move to the front of the line and enter my theater early, even though the house was not ready to open yet, which is what I usually do in these situations.

[deleted01]

Drac: Were you alone? If you were waiting at my venue, I would not mind if you stepped out, provided you had friends to keep your place for you. If you were alone, there would be no way I could have a staff person make sure your place was kept. Nor do I have a wheelchair on hand for patrons who may ask for one. (I have borrowed one from the health center when someone asked for one in advance.) If you were at my venue, a regular chair or a desk chair with wheels is probably the best way I could honor your request. (And I'd want to do something for you since you asked me for help) That said, I'd probably just let you move to the front of the line and enter my theater early, even though the house was not ready to open yet, which is what I usually do in these situations.

I wasn't alone, no, and the people behind me, who I didn't know, spoke up and said they wouldn't mind if I sat down for the duration of the queue. In the end, I just stayed in the queue and moaned a lot. It takes a lot for me to ask, and I of course don't mind if no accommodations can be made, but it seemed as if the very simple solution to the problem was being dismissed as not part of their policy or what have you.

I'd hate to go in before others, especially as most of the time you can't see my disability. And I'm British - queuing is in my nature :p If no wheelchair/chair with wheels that a friend can push along is available, then I'll just wait it out. Probably sit on the floor if the queue is non-moving.

The worst thing that's happened to me with regard to this is that a place of work refused to listen to the recommendations of occupational health, and make certain accommodations. They were as simple as adjusting the seat, providing a foot stool, and not making me having to reach across a large desk to use a piece of equipment every 10 minutes. This is one of the reasons why I ended up leaving, and going back into education.

[Summah]

I wasn't alone, no, and the people behind me, who I didn't know, spoke up and said they wouldn't mind if I sat down for the duration of the queue. In the end, I just stayed in the queue and moaned a lot. It takes a lot for me to ask, and I of course don't mind if no accommodations can be made, but it seemed as if the very simple solution to the problem was being dismissed as not part of their policy or what have you.

I'd hate to go in before others, especially as most of the time you can't see my disability. And I'm British - queuing is in my nature :p If no wheelchair/chair with wheels that a friend can push along is available, then I'll just wait it out. Probably sit on the floor if the queue is non-moving.

I don't like being put in the front of a line without waiting either. The last few times I had a long line and there was no wheelchair available, I asked the people both directly behind and in front of me in the line if it was ok if I sat and waited in a chair (outside the line) instead of standing in the line and once the woman in front of me complained about it (though since it didn't affect her place in line at all, because she was in front of me, I don't know what exactly her issue was, that she thought it wasn't fair maybe), but everyone else has been cool. I do tell them that I'm disabled and can't stand in one place for longer than a few minutes.

The worst thing that's happened to me with regard to this is that a place of work refused to listen to the recommendations of occupational health, and make certain accommodations. They were as simple as adjusting the seat, providing a foot stool, and not making me having to reach across a large desk to use a piece of equipment every 10 minutes. This is one of the reasons why I ended up leaving, and going back into education.

I just googled this, since I don't know UK law, but wouldn't this fall under reasonable adjustments and not doing it is probably illegal? I can't blame you for leaving, I wouldn't stay either, I probably would tell people what happened, especially if they were considering applying, I'm not litigious, but I would definitely consider reporting it to if there was someone to report it to.

[deleted01]

I don't like being put in the front of a line without waiting either. The last few times I had a long line and there was no wheelchair available, I asked the people both directly behind and in front of me in the line if it was ok if I sat and waited in a chair (outside the line) instead of standing in the line and once the woman in front of me complained about it (though since it didn't affect her place in line at all, because she was in front of me, I don't know what exactly her issue was, that she thought it wasn't fair maybe), but everyone else has been cool. I do tell them that I'm disabled and can't stand in one place for longer than a few minutes.

I just googled this, since I don't know UK law, but wouldn't this fall under reasonable adjustments and not doing it is probably illegal? I can't blame you for leaving, I wouldn't stay either, I probably would tell people what happened, especially if they were considering applying, I'm not litigious, but I would definitely consider reporting it to if there was someone to report it to.

Oh it definitely is, and I could have reported it, but there were several reasons why I wanted to leave. If I had wanted to stay, I probably would have taken it further, though that can cause issues within a workplace. And I hate "causing a fuss".

[Summah]

Oh it definitely is, and I could have reported it, but there were several reasons why I wanted to leave. If I had wanted to stay, I probably would have taken it further, though that can cause issues within a workplace. And I hate "causing a fuss".

Yes I've seen pushing for legally required accommodations cause hostile work environments and cause employers to look for excuses to fire that person for cause. Sometimes it has to be done, but it can definitely lead to resentment for everyone involved.

[polishgenius]

And I hate "causing a fuss".

You're so British it's untrue.

[Whitestripe]

I'd never want to embarrass anyone, but I don't think that it's all that much of a big deal to let someone into my theater a few minutes early and therefore allowing them to bypass a line. I regularly do it for elderly patrons (classical music gets lots of old people). To me, it's just customer service. I've also provided hearing assisted devices, large print programs, and sign language interpreters when they have been requested. (Both instances of the sign language interpreter were a special cases. Deaf students were required to see each of the plays for class. That was fairly involved) My theater is 26 years old and just barely meets ADA standards in terms of wheelchair accessibility so I want to do what I can to alleviate what is usually already a bad mood regarding "getting there."

[Eyron]

Drac, have you looked into foldable wheelchairs? They don't take much space in the car. They still need some carrying or rolling around, but at least you could fit one in the car without trouble. I know it's expensive if you can't get it subsidised but it might be worth a look. There are also small light foldable tripods made to carry, but you'd still have to get up and move with the queue so I don't know if it's very handy in this case.

[peterbound]

I'd never want to embarrass anyone, but I don't think that it's all that much of a big deal to let someone into my theater a few minutes early and therefore allowing them to bypass a line. I regularly do it for elderly patrons (classical music gets lots of old people). To me, it's just customer service. I've also provided hearing assisted devices, large print programs, and sign language interpreters when they have been requested. (Both instances of the sign language interpreter were a special cases. Deaf students were required to see each of the plays for class. That was fairly involved) My theater is 26 years old and just barely meets ADA standards in terms of wheelchair accessibility so I want to do what I can to alleviate what is usually already a bad mood regarding "getting there."

Throttle back here though. The original discussion was about accommodating people with depression. I want to make clear, again, I have no issue making every thing more accessible for individuals with physical disabilities. Never did I say that I didn't. I do feel, though, that catering to every whim of someone to alleviate anxiety, depression, and mood shifts is a slippery slop, and some line needs to be drawn.

And Shummah, what was it that was wrong with you? I'm trying to understand here where all your hate for me comes from, and I want to make sure I didn't blast your disability.

[Dr. Pepper]

The original discussion was about accommodating people with depression.

Err, no. The original discussion (the one that led to this) had nothing at all to do with accommodation.

What happened was some dude called peterpeckerhead decided to pick a fight for no reason at all. Then peckerpenis decided the fight wasn't going his way so he willfully misread a post and tried to pretend he was the dumbest little pecker in the whole wide world as a way to make the fight go his way. It was my fault for deciding the humor peckerbound. This dude can be an {insert proper word here}, but he probably doesn't think most accommodations are unreasonable.

[peterbound]

Err, no. The original discussion (the one that led to this) had nothing at all to do with accommodation.

What happened was some dude called peterpeckerhead decided to pick a fight for no reason at all. Then peckerpenis decided the fight wasn't going his way so he willfully misread a post and tried to pretend he was the dumbest little pecker in the whole wide world as a way to make the fight go his way. It was my fault for deciding the humor peckerbound. This dude can be an {insert proper word here}, but he probably doesn't think most accommodations are unreasonable.

The fuck?

Believe me when I say, that's the worst attempt at an insult I've seen on this board. Seriously. You've got to try harder.

Ps, you're going to get this thread locked with your bullshit.

My position stands. Accommodations should be made, and we should try to make them for people who aren't technically 'disabled' but the line has to be somewhere.

[Malik Ambar]

This really has got nothing to do with civil rights for disabled people, does it ?

[The King in Black]

[mod] Enough of the personal stuff, please. If you want to continue the discussion, discuss the issues - not each other. [/mod]

Ha ! In the mods face ! mormont, your street cred is at an all time low brother ! Put the fear in the punks who defy you, show em who's da boss !

[Dr. Pepper]

My position stands. Accommodations should be made, and we should try to make them for people who aren't technically 'disabled' but the line has to be somewhere.

That's pretty much exactly what I said.

This really has got nothing to do with civil rights for disabled people, does it ?

It's pretty clear this thread is here to discuss rights for disabled people. It's also equally clear that the original discussion that spawned this thread had nothing at all to do with accommodations for disabled people. It had to do with whether or not someone should try therapy again when it hadn't been helpful in the past.