Children raised by religious fundamentalists—can this be a form of child abuse?

[karaddin]

I guess you are also fine with female genital mutilation, because hey it's a cultural practice? I don't like conflating the two, because FGM is much more severe and designed specifically to eliminate womens sexuality, but the idea that just because it's a cultural practice it should be continued is analogous. Lets see some links for these supposed vaunted benefits of circumcision, because they aren't actually very large.

[Gears of the Beast]

I guess you are also fine with female genital mutilation, because hey it's a cultural practice? I don't like conflating the two, because FGM is much more severe and designed specifically to eliminate womens sexuality, but the idea that just because it's a cultural practice it should be continued is analogous. Lets see some links for these supposed vaunted benefits of circumcision, because they aren't actually very large.

There's at least one user on here that's actually made this argument followed by the usual 'you have no right to judge because of Western imperialism bla bla bla'.

[SeanF]

When I hit puberty and started gaining weight as a result (and just to be clear although it shouldn't matter this does not mean I was even marginally overweight. Just that my body shape changed) my father decided that it was very important I hear about how fat I was at every single spare moment. That every meal I had needed to be commented on and fault found with either what I was eating or how much. That when I dared to try and eat chips on a family holiday when every family member was doing the same including him he needed to make pig noises at me.

20 something years later and I know for a fact this still accepts me. At the time I responded by going days without eating and frequently making myself sick when I *did* allow myself to eat.

Is it your opinion that this is not abusive? Because there was no violence or sexual abuse? Because if so I really fucking hope you never have kids.

Without hearing your father's side of the story, I really couldn't say if it was abusive or not.

I have step-children, as it happens.

[karaddin]

Without hearing your father's side of the story, I really couldn't say if it was abusive or not.

I have step-children, as it happens.

If you think there is any circumstances in which it is acceptable for a parent figure to seriously make pig noises at a child, regardless of how large they are or what weight problems they may have, then I sincerely hope you are not particularly involved in the parenting of your step-children for their sake.

There is no "side" to this story that would make it acceptable, he was an abusive asshole.

[Theda Baratheon]

There really can't be a side to that story in which making your daughter feel like crap is an okay thing to do. You've made a previous post detailing what you think is abuse but you know you can actually widen that definition or change your mind rather than just deny the abuse of others.

[The Once and Future King]

The OP could just as well be describing my lovely young daughter until age 16 or so - she was being raised by her fundamentalist Christian mother, who took them to church three times a week, labeled her kitchen cabinets with bible verses, and forbade all media save for the religious radio stations. Even Disney movies were deemed 'satanic'. She and her sister were being homeschooled using a program I equate to brainwashing. Back then, my daughter was quite the little fundy herself, and I had to choose my words with care on the few occasions I was allowed to see her. Her life's ambition was to be a housewife with ten kids.

Then she moved in with me - my Ex became unstable enough to where even the other fanatics were not comfortable with her (among other things, linking random numbers from earthquakes to equally random biblical verses to predict the future.

Inside of a year, my daughter stopped going to church. She made friends in the public school system, and at work (one of those 'jobs for class credit deals).

Three years later, she decided fundy Christians were basically 'noodles.'

Three months ago, she and her friends dropped in at the local strip club, which she found hilarious.

This is the greatest advertisement to raisr children religious that I have ever seen.

[Warg Arry]

If you think there is any circumstances in which it is acceptable for a parent figure to seriously make pig noises at a child, regardless of how large they are or what weight problems they may have, then I sincerely hope you are not particularly involved in the parenting of your step-children for their sake.

There is no "side" to this story that would make it acceptable, he was an abusive asshole.

Yes This!

No matter which way you cut it. That is verbal and psychological abuse.

It doesn't matter what his excuses/reasons/intentions are. What he did caused harm. He is an adult. He should know better.

Instead of acting like a kid bullying younger kids.

[Malik Ambar]

Sorry guys, but having had the pleasure of having survived a physically abusive father, I find it difficult to say that raising a child in a fundamentalist enviornment amounts to abuse. The term 'abuse' is being thrown around lightly. If the child is being harmed physically , then that's covered under physical abuse anyway. If he/she is being psychologically damaged then that too is covered under mental harassement. But children from households that are looking out for their well-being, providing them comforts and within whom the child has formed emotional and psychological bonds being taken away by the system, because the religious upbringing tends to be fundamentalist ? And deeming such enviornment as 'abusive' ? Abusive enviornments are where you tend to lock yourself in the bathrooms for the better part of the day because that's where you feel the safest, where you've become so accoustemed to the daily routine of beating/violent fightings that you even know the time of the day that it's going to happen. Just because the parents teach their children that Jesus/Mohammed/whoever is the only real God doesn't sound a good enough reason, atleast to me, to tear families apart. My solution to deal with this problem is to educate the parents themselves about this issue and instilling the necessary counter-view abilities in the student at the schools, but this topic desserves it's own thread.

[karaddin]

Would you classify what was done to Leelah Alcorn as abuse? Cut off from her entire social network for 5 months and home schooled, only allowed out for Church and reparative therapy where she was told she was selfish and just needed to live as a man. Google for further details if you need them, but there was no physical beating involved.

[brook]

There are two boarders who have already described their experience of being brought up in clearly abusive situations where the abuse itself was inextricably tied to the religious beliefs.

You don't have to right to minimise that.

[Malik Ambar]

Would you classify what was done to Leelah Alcorn as abuse? Cut off from her entire social network for 5 months and home schooled, only allowed out for Church and reparative therapy where she was told she was selfish and just needed to live as a man. Google for further details if you need them, but there was no physical beating involved.

Being unaware of the said case, I will have to read about it first.

[King Blackwood]

King blackwood has extensive dossiers on the genitals of all his football teammates.

Or like he said, he played sports in high school that probably had locker rooms. (Locker rooms are these rooms where you can change or even take showers!)

Hahaha

I guess you are also fine with female genital mutilation, because hey it's a cultural practice? I don't like conflating the two, because FGM is much more severe and designed specifically to eliminate womens sexuality, but the idea that just because it's a cultural practice it should be continued is analogous. Lets see some links for these supposed vaunted benefits of circumcision, because they aren't actually very large.

It is ridiculous to conflate the two, so don't.

As for health benefits, I provided a link already, but here are a few additional ones.

If you think there is any circumstances in which it is acceptable for a parent figure to seriously make pig noises at a child, regardless of how large they are or what weight problems they may have, then I sincerely hope you are not particularly involved in the parenting of your step-children for their sake.

There is no "side" to this story that would make it acceptable, he was an abusive asshole.

While the way he made her feel makes it inherently wrong, his intention may have been lighthearted joking, not knowing that his daughter was taking it to heart in that way. Maybe she didn't open up and tell him how she really felt? If she did, and he continued, then I agree, "he was an abusive asshole."

[karaddin]

You don't get it, that's not an acceptable joke to make to a teenage girl ever, even if meant as lighthearted it's fucked up and likely to give her issues. In this case I do know the story, Brook is my fiancee and the man in question being an abusive asshole is beyond doubt, but you do not need that context to know making pig noises at a teenager girl is never OK in any context ever.

ETA: Tried looking at those 3 links, first one is apparently blocked in Thailand as I just got a green page in Thai writing which I can't read, WebMD and the CNN article both list "reduced risks of x,y,z" but give no numbers for how large the reduction is or what the risks of these things are in the first place, the risk of penile cancer for example is tiny and even halving the risk of that is a very very marginal health benefit. I think you could also view tranmission of HIV in Africa as a somewhat different case to transmission in developed nations, and once again the numbers for that aren't listed.

It's like the massive freak out over HRT for women in menopause where there were indications it led to an increase in breast cancer, but the increase was actually tiny and not even statistically significant but medical ethics have prevented further studies so people are still scared of it when they shouldn't be. These health benefits are extremely minor, and not worth the potential downsides.

[brook]

If there is one thing we can never get enough of it's people making excuses for abusers.

I could tell plenty of stories that would paint a clear picture of the man we're talking about. But I'm not going to here or tonight and I don't need to. There are no intentions that justify abuse of a child and it is not the responsibility of the child to make it stop. Nor is there any way repeated and constant behaviour spanning EVERY meal I ate in front of the man for 3-4 years (lasting until my mother temporarily left him over it and he found new ways to make me miserable instead) can ever be described as 'lighthearted joking'

ETA just to be clear the question here wasn't 'how can we contort ourselves to justify this behaviour' but 'can abuse exist if it doesn't involve violence/sexual abuse'

The answer is yes, emotional and psychological abuse exists, is damaging and leaves scars. I'm not going to offer a lifetime of stories of my father torturing me in order to prove I personally was abused enough to 'count'.

[King Blackwood]

You don't get it, that's not an acceptable joke to make to a teenage girl ever, even if meant as lighthearted it's fucked up and likely to give her issues. In this case I do know the story, Brook is my fiancee and the man in question being an abusive asshole is beyond doubt, but you do not need that context to know making pig noises at a teenager girl is never OK in any context ever.

ETA: Tried looking at those 3 links, first one is apparently blocked in Thailand as I just got a green page in Thai writing which I can't read, WebMD and the CNN article both list "reduced risks of x,y,z" but give no numbers for how large the reduction is or what the risks of these things are in the first place, the risk of penile cancer for example is tiny and even halving the risk of that is a very very marginal health benefit. I think you could also view tranmission of HIV in Africa as a somewhat different case to transmission in developed nations, and once again the numbers for that aren't listed.

These health benefits are extremely minor, and not worth the potential downsides.

If there is one thing we can never get enough of it's people making excuses for abusers.

I could tell plenty of stories that would paint a clear picture of the man we're talking about. But I'm not going to here or tonight and I don't need to. There are no intentions that justify abuse of a child and it is not the responsibility of the child to make it stop. Nor is there any way repeated and constant behaviour spanning EVERY meal I ate in front of the man for 3-4 years (lasting until my mother temporarily left him over it and he found new ways to make me miserable instead) can ever be described as 'lighthearted joking'

I clearly said that it was wrong whether the intention was harmful or not.

You claim that the "health benefits are extremely minor, and not worth the potential downsides" even after reading the articles, but all four links I've provided have said the EXACT OPPOSITE. Quoting from WebMD "The American Academy of Pediatrics (AAP) found that the health benefits of newborn male circumcision outweigh the risks,"and that is literally the title of the CNN article.

[karaddin]

I clearly said that it was wrong whether the intention was harmful or not.

You claim that the "health benefits are extremely minor, and not worth the potential downsides" even after reading the articles, but all four links I've provided have said the EXACT OPPOSITE. Quoting from WebMD "The American Academy of Pediatrics (AAP) found that the health benefits of newborn male circumcision outweigh the risks,"and that is literally the title of the CNN article.

Not one of them takes the impact on SRS into account because trans people aren't considered pertinent, hell only surgeons that perform it and trans women in my situation would likely be aware of the situation. Doesn't mean it's not an issue though. The articles I was able to read (I looked back and couldn't see the first one, so its just the WebMD and CNN one) also dismiss the loss of sensation as a non issue on the basis of limited studies. I personally feel like it had quite significant impact on my sensation with my past genitals based on what I felt versus descriptions of what other people felt and limitations I had around sex.

[Reny of Storms End]

Not one of them takes the impact on SRS into account because trans people aren't considered pertinent, hell only surgeons that perform it and trans women in my situation would likely be aware of the situation. Doesn't mean it's not an issue though. The articles I was able to read (I looked back and couldn't see the first one, so its just the WebMD and CNN one) also dismiss the loss of sensation as a non issue on the basis of limited studies. I personally feel like it had quite significant impact on my sensation with my past genitals based on what I felt versus descriptions of what other people felt and limitations I had around sex.

If this isn't too personal, would you elaborate on the impact of circumsion on SRS? Just curious is all.

[Ormond]

Having now read this whole thread I have time for just a few quick comments:

The word "abuse" is quite commonly used to describe verbal and psychological pain inflicted on others, even in situations where all parties are adults. It is legitimate to argue that physical abuse usually has more severe consequences than verbal abuse, but one doesn't get to arbitrarily claim that it's not "abuse" at all just because of that.

I completely agree that disowning children because they adopt different beliefs or question their parents' beliefs is wrong. But I would disagree with Dracarya's idea that vegetarian parents should let their children try eating meat. Parents are under no obligation to let their minor children "try" something they themselves believe is wrong and immoral.

It's also difficult sometimes to remember there is a difference between individuals justifying their actions in the name of their religious beliefs --even "fundamentalist" ones-- and whether or not the official doctrines or leadership of the faith would agree with them. I am appalled by Wang Arry's descriptions of her childhood -- but when her father blamed the clock from the second hand store for bringing a demon into the home (unless WA has not described the clock fully and it was shaped like a wizard or dragon), surely that's going way beyond what a typical Jehovah's Witness would do. The Jehovah's Witnesses I have known in the USA would see that as going over the deep end. It seems to me that is paranoid ideation that goes way beyond throwing out dolls depicting wizards or witches. I don't think the JWs in general can be blamed for everything any member of their sect does even when they claim it's related to the religion, any more than I think Muslims in general can be blamed for the atrocities of the so-called "Islamic State."

[karaddin]

If this isn't too personal, would you elaborate on the impact of circumsion on SRS? Just curious is all.

In a general sense, the material that is currently there is repurposed to build the vagina, having the foreskin removed reduces the amount of material available. This is less of an issue with the technique that I had, but given I went to the only surgeon in the world that uses this technique, its a greater issue for most and impacts the depth of the new vagina. Additionally scarring from the circumcision (which was the case for me) can lead to patches of reduced sensitivity, and with the technique that I did have can lead to the scarring being visible in the aesthetic of the vagina, basically outing it as a constructed one in addition to the reduced sensitivity issue.

[Jo498]

I believe the US is the only western country where gentile male infants are (almost) usually circumcised. It used to be quite common in some western European countries for a few decades (60s-70s), but probably never the majority (I think in my age group, born early 70s Western Germany, probably 30% of boys were circumcised, apparently it was not common at all in Eastern Germany). It seems consensus now among European doctors that standard infant circumcision cannot be recommended for health benefits. (I have to accept the cultural significance for Jews and Muslims, but I cannot deny that I find it revolting to do this to children who cannot form an opinion about this.)

(A funny cultural thing is that nowadays apparently the dominant position of those who concern themselves with such questions is that a circumcised penis is "more beautiful" whereas the Classical Greeks, the foremost authorities on male beauty, absolutely detested the practice because of the look it created and it really was a problem among some culturally graecizised Jews in antiquity. They would be ridiculed at the gym and there were techniques to stretch the remaining skin to improve the look. Sorry, useless bit of trivia...)