R+L=J v.132

[IceFire125]

Sophie Turner -- Huffpost TV, Feb. 11, 2015

Do you discuss "Game of Thrones" theories with the cast?

Sometimes we talk about theories … there's that one theory where Rhaegar and Lyanna are Jon Snow's parents. And we've definitely discussed that, but I think a lot of us are thinking now that it's such a huge theory it would be so predictable if it happened. But if it did happened, it'd still be awesome.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/02/11/sophie-turner-game-of-thrones-shocking_n_6655484.html?ncid=tweetlnkushpmg00000027

WHAT?? SOPHIE, you said you don't even read the books, there's other theories out there in ASOIAF!!!! I'm done! I'm leaving this R+L=J ship, it's SOOOO PREDICTABLE NOW!!! damn it!! stop being so popular!!! can we just end it in the 132nd version??? like can more people start or continue argue for B+A=J or N+A=J and debate about them until the 130th thread, so new fans won't recognize and just forget about R+L=J!!??

[sj4iy]

Sophie Turner -- Huffpost TV, Feb. 11, 2015

Do you discuss "Game of Thrones" theories with the cast?

Sometimes we talk about theories … there's that one theory where Rhaegar and Lyanna are Jon Snow's parents. And we've definitely discussed that, but I think a lot of us are thinking now that it's such a huge theory it would be so predictable if it happened. But if it did happened, it'd still be awesome.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/02/11/sophie-turner-game-of-thrones-shocking_n_6655484.html?ncid=tweetlnkushpmg00000027

WHAT?? SOPHIE, you said you don't even read the books, there's other theories out there in ASOIAF!!!! I'm done! I'm leaving this R+L=J ship, it's SOOOO PREDICTABLE NOW!!! damn it!! stop being so popular!!! can we just end it in the 132nd version??? like can more people start or continue argue for B+A=J or N+A=J and debate about them until the 130th thread, so new fans won't recognize and just forget about R+L=J!!??

Exactly. It's so predictable because it's easy, and not because the books have been out 20 years and have been dissected to death by every outlet on the internet.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

Thanks RumHam! I can't believe I forgot the "infestation". Then Ned's major heartburn began when Cersei's wheelhouse pulled up to the gate and just grew from there.

It wasn't Robert that made Ned wary (re: Jon or just in general)....it was Robert's in-laws. IMO whatever Jon's mystery parentage turns out to be, the real threat to his true identity lay with the Lannisters.

As an aside: Note how early in these books Martin uses snake/serpent vocabulary with reference to the Lannisters. "Infestation," Cersei's "brood," Ned comparing Tywin to a "pit viper." I find it fascinating... particularly in light of Tyrion's transformation from lion to Snake in ADWD.

[corbon]

First and foremost, this is not a suggestion that Jon is not the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna, which I firmly believe he is. Just something I find a tad peculiar.

I might be reading to much into things, but let's just lay out a thin background on what we know.

1-Ned marries Cat and conceives Robb

2-Ned fights the war, goes to tower of Joy, leaves with only Howland and Jon

3-Arrives home with a newborn child and a dead Lyanna.

He most certainly told somebody he was going to get Lyanna.

Why?

Who?

I very much doubt he did tell anyone. He took a small posse of his closest companions, men whose loyalties he knew he could trust to him personally over and above their popular, generous, friendly King.

Why would he tell anyone else, and who else would he tell that was with him in the south?

Do people think Rhaegar killed her? I know it's the common opinion around the land that he abducted her, so it could be that's what people are assuming. Surely Ned has told the story more than a few times, and no doubt it went something like this:

"I went to the Tower of Joy with my six buddies, we killed the three Kingsguard, then I went up to the top of the tower to find Lyanna dying. She died in my arms. Yada yada yada...."

Surely he has never told it to anyone.

Its dangerous information. It leads inevitably to further questions along dangerous lines, questions that don't seem to be being asked.

And we saw in Catelyn's memories what happened the one time anyone probed, even indirectly, into the question of Jon's origins.

Probably a very select few (namely Robert, maybe Jon Arryn and/or Benjen) got a very very limited selection of data. Robert in particualr would have asked, surely, but would be easily satisfied with a few simple answers and a few evasions.

I do know about you, but personally I have thousands of questions, not as myself, the reader, but as whichever character hears such a crock of shit.

1. Ned, pray tell, how did your sister die?

2. Ned, pray tell, why were the kingsguard there?

3. Ned, pray tell, where has the babe's mother been?

4. You've been to Riverrun, the Trident, Stoney Sept, King's Landing, Storm's End, and Starfall, to name a few. Have you been dragging the pregnant wench around with you?

5. Where is she now?

6. f not, did you happen back upon her?

7. And she convinced you the child was yours?

8. Ned, pray tell, why are you sweating so heavily?

1. A. "A fever". Possibly stretched out to "she was near death when I found her and I couldn't save her - possibly, but very unlikely. Ned's not a voluble man, and particularly, icily even, silent on this subject area.

2. Can't ask the question if he's never told the story. A more likely question is asking about Arthur Dayne and how Ned acquired Dawn - which probably results in a straight up lie, or an evasion like "he died in battle, we recovered the sword from his body", and no more. No one knows about Hightower, or even Whent. They also don't know if Dayne/Dawn and Lyanna are 2 connected or separate events. And Ned's not likely to tell them.

3.“Never ask me about Jon, ('s mother)” he said, cold as ice. “He is my blood, and that is all you need to know. ... and from that day on, the whispering had stopped".

4. See 3.

5. See 3.

6. See 3

7. See 3

8. Its so frackin frigid in here, but someone is still sweating. Its not Ned at this point.

The thing that gets me, though, is how the hell has Jon not put this together? After hearing the story of the tower, this is what I would think. We've gotten into Jon's head on many occasions about his mother. He no doubt knows he was fathered during the war, knows the story of the tower, and knows that Ned went to get Lyanna, but came back with her corpse.

Jon just doesn't have the clues that you assume he has. Neither does anyone else except the readers who have seen inside Ned's head.

To the reader it's not overly easy to pick out until you read the necessary passages a couple of times... but to people who've had to hear this story time after time, especially Jon, it seems to me that it might be easy to see.

Nobody has heard it at all, let alone time after time.

As evidenced by the fact that no one asks these questions or comes to these conclusions.

I think he did. Men don't just become honorable. They have that rep, just like Robert had a diferent rep--and doesn't Robert say something about Ned not being the boy he was (yes, I know the show does, but is it in the books?). Unlike his best friend and his brother, Ned never had children pre-Cat and was too shy to talk to Ashara.

But let's say Ned didn't...he wouldn't be the first man to sire a bastard during war. He's just the first one to bring the baby home. If people did question it, they didn't question it to a great extent, likely because of Ned's reputation.

Right. Ned has a rep, definitely around King Bob and probably around the North and the Vale at least - most likely also around anyone who fought in the rebel armies he helped lead as well, reinforced further by his actions after the siege. And bringing home a bastard actually increases that rep - anyone can make a mistake (and as Catelyn thinks, its kind of a forgivable, even expected and normal, sort of mistake given the situation), but it takes a really honourable man to face up to such a mistake and really own it the way Ned has.

Ah right, I forgot about that. Still it doesn't necessarily speak to his reputation, Robert knew him very well. We don't know that it was common knowledge from the Wall to Dorne that Ned Stark was uncommonly honorable at that time.

Edit: and it it was, that should only make people question his bastard story more, no?

See above, quite the opposite IMO.

From the Wall to Dorne, no. But in the north, yes. And it's after a war, people aren't going to sit and think overly about Ned and this boy, something I think Ned was depending on. Robert wouldn't question anything because of grief and trying to be a king. And again, they wouldn't question the bastard because honorable Ned is saying (read: owning up) to this error. So for the people who know Ned, they believe what he says and leave it at that

And this is perhaps the summary of it all. Straight Arrow man makes a very reasonable mistake but owns it in an over the top kind of way, totally reinforcing his credibility as super-honourable.

[markg171]

I think he did. Men don't just become honorable. They have that rep, just like Robert had a diferent rep--and doesn't Robert say something about Ned not being the boy he was (yes, I know the show does, but is it in the books?). Unlike his best friend and his brother, Ned never had children pre-Cat and was too shy to talk to Ashara.

But let's say Ned didn't...he wouldn't be the first man to sire a bastard during war. He's just the first one to bring the baby home. If people did question it, they didn't question it to a great extent, likely because of Ned's reputation.

That's not true

Many men fathered bastards. Catelyn had grown up with that knowledge. It came as no surprise to her, in the first year of her marriage, to learn that Ned had fathered a child on some girl chance met on campaign. He had a man’s needs, after all, and they had spent that year apart, Ned off at war in the south while she remained safe in her father’s castle at Riverrun. Her thoughts were more of Robb, the infant at her breast, than of the husband she scarcely knew. He was welcome to whatever solace he might find between battles. And if his seed quickened, she expected he would see to the child’s needs.

He did more than that. The Starks were not like other men. Ned brought his bastard home with him, and called him “son” for all the north to see. When the wars were over at last, and Catelyn rode to Winterfell, Jon and his wet nurse had already taken up residence.

The Starks have a reputation of taking care of their bastards.

And even Robert wanted to take his bastards home. He set Edric up in Storm's End (his ancestral home), and wanted to bring Mya to King's Landing (his current home).

So people are taking their bastards home. When they know about them at least.

[BearQueen87]

That's not true

The Starks have a reputation of taking care of their bastards.

And even Robert wanted to take his bastards home. He set Edric up in Storm's End (his ancestral home), and wanted to bring Mya to King's Landing (his current home).

So people are taking their bastards home. When they know about them at least.

No read the entire sentence. The Stark man in question is Ned. Cat is applying it to the entire family because she barely knew Brandon and the rest of the Starks but we know that Starks did not universally bring home their bastards. Like Brandon, Ned's own brother. Robert was forced to set up Edric because the woman was a maiden and he had dishonored Stannis's marriage bed and it was a huge scandal. You're also neglecting to remember all the other bastards that Robert damn well knew about and never bothered to do anything about at all--including take care of them post birth, or their mothers.

So taking home bastards is exceedingly rare.

[markg171]

Why?

Who?

I very much doubt he did tell anyone. He took a small posse of his closest companions, men whose loyalties he knew he could trust to him personally over and above their popular, generous, friendly King.

Why would he tell anyone else, and who else would he tell that was with him in the south?

Well someone told his soldiers.

That cut deep. Ned would not speak of the mother, not so much as a word, but a castle has no secrets, and Catelyn heard her maids repeating tales they heard from the lips of her husband’s soldiers. They whispered of Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning, deadliest of the seven knights of Aerys’s Kingsguard, and of how their young lord had slain him in single combat. And they told how afterward Ned had carried Ser Arthur’s sword back to the beautiful young sister who awaited him in a castle called Starfall on the shores of the Summer Sea. The Lady Ashara Dayne, tall and fair, with haunting violet eyes. It had taken her a fortnight to marshal her courage, but finally, in bed one night, Catelyn had asked her husband the truth of it, asked him to his face.

Only Ned and Howland survived the fight, yet Ned's soldiers know what he did after Storm's End. So either Ned told them, or Howland told them seeing as they're the only ones who survived.

But I think there's actually a possible common misconception about what happened after Storm's End, and I think there might be a 3rd explanation. We're told that Ned and his companions went to the TOJ and that there were 7 of them. But how do we know that there was only the 7 of them? We actually have hints that there were more than just the 7 northmen.

We have the above statement about how Ned's soldiers know he killed Arthur Dayne, and how afterwards he traveled to Starfall. Now Ned isn't one to boast so he's not likely to be telling war stories. In fact, we know that he specifically doesn't talk about the war. And from little we know about Howland, he doesn't seem likely to go around telling these kind of stories either. Yet the troops have intimate details. As if they were there, or at least nearby.

The TOJ is stated to have been in the mountains. You wouldn't bring your whole army up the path to it, and likely couldn't have even if you wanted to. So if you wanted to take the TOJ, you'd go up with a few companions, and not your whole army. Hence why there were only Ned and 6 others. So when only Howland and Ned return, the soldiers can piece things together, or might have been able to have seen the whole thing themselves from where they watched and thus know the details without Ned or Howland having had to tell them.

Then there's also these that suggests there were more than just Ned and his 6.

Ned did not feign surprise; Robert’s hatred of the Targaryens was a madness in him. He remembered the angry words they had exchanged when Tywin Lannister had presented Robert with the corpses of Rhaegar’s wife and children as a token of fealty. Ned had named that murder; Robert called it war. When he had protested that the young prince and princess were no more than babes, his new-made king had replied, “I see no babes. Only dragonspawn.” Not even Jon Arryn had been able to calm that storm. Eddard Stark had ridden out that very day in a cold rage, to fight the last battles of the war alone in the south. It had taken another death to reconcile them; Lyanna’s death, and the grief they had shared over her passing.

“Honor, “ she spat. “How dare you play the noble lord with me! What do you take me for? You’ve a bastard of your own, I’ve seen him. Who was the mother, I wonder? Some Dornish peasant you raped while her holdfast burned? A whore? Or was it the grieving sister, the Lady Ashara? She threw herself into the sea, I’m told. Why was that? For the brother you slew, or the child you stole? Tell me, my honorable Lord Eddard, how are you any different from Robert, or me, or Jaime?”

Ned fought battles in the south, yet we only hear of Storm's End, which wasn't a battle, and the TOJ, which wasn't really a battle either as there were only 10 combatants. Then Cersei believes that Ned fought in Dorne, and specifically a holdfast. Yet the only fight that we know of in Dorne, took place at the TOJ. Which isn't a holdfast. So we are missing battles in Dorne, and battles require armies. So if Ned was fighting in dorne, he had his armies with him. Which would explain how his soldiers know about the TOJ and his visit to Starfall. Because they were there.

And finally, had Ned had his armies with him, it explains how he pulled down the TOJ. Howland and Ned pulling down the tower is hard to imagine. If he had an army to help, it's easily explained.

So I think we're all just assuming that there was only Ned and his companions who went to the the TOJ. We actually have a decent amount of evidence suggesting that an entire army went, but only Ned and his 6 fought.

[markg171]

No read the entire sentence. The Stark man in question is Ned. Cat is applying it to the entire family because she barely knew Brandon and the rest of the Starks but we know that Starks did not universally bring home their bastards. Like Brandon, Ned's own brother. Robert was forced to set up Edric because the woman was a maiden and he had dishonored Stannis's marriage bed and it was a huge scandal.

Brandon's bastard? That's based off speculation by Ran that Brandon sired a daughter as GRRM told him that Brandon had no sons when he died. There's no actual indications within the books that he had a bastard, or if he ever did, knew about it. If people don't know they have a bastard, they can't take care of them. but there's nothing about Brandon having a bastard, simply Ran saying he might have had a daughter, not GRRM.

But the sentence says Starks. Catelyn says the Starks in general aren't like other men. That can't only be applied to Ned. And Catelyn knew Brandon far better than she knew Ned. They'd spent time together in Riverrun, and Brandon was willing to duel for her, and even spare the life of her friend simply because she asked him too. So Brandon and Catelyn knew each other. Yet she specifically says that she barely knew Ned, yet knew enough about Ned, and the Starks, that they weren't like other men and would take care of their bastards. So the Starks have a reputation of taking care of their bastards.

You're also neglecting to remember all the other bastards that Robert damn well knew about and never bothered to do anything about at all--including take care of them post birth, or their mothers.

So taking home bastards is exceedingly rare.

That's after Robert was not allowed to bring his bastards home as Cersei said that she would have them killed. You can't hold that against him as to bring them home was to risk their lives. There's also like I said above, if he doesn't know that he got the woman pregnant, he can't be expected to take care of the baby.

[BearQueen87]

Brandon's bastard? That's based off speculation by Ran that Brandon sired a daughter as GRRM told him that Brandon had no sons when he died. There's no actual indications within the books that he had a bastard, or if he ever did, knew about it. If people don't know they have a bastard, they can't take care of them. but there's nothing about Brandon having a bastard, simply Ran saying he might have had a daughter, not GRRM.

But the sentence says Starks. Catelyn says the Starks in general aren't like other men. That can't only be applied to Ned. And Catelyn knew Brandon far better than she knew Ned. They'd spent time together in Riverrun, and Brandon was willing to duel for her, and even spare the life of her friend simply because she asked him too. So Brandon and Catelyn knew each other. Yet she specifically says that she barely knew Ned, yet knew enough about Ned, and the Starks, that they weren't like other men and would take care of their bastards. So the Starks have a reputation of taking care of their bastards.

Find me more of these elusive Starks who brought home their bastards to raise and called them son for everyone to see and raised them right alongside their true born children.

That's after Robert was not allowed to bring his bastards home as Cersei said that she would have them killed. You can't hold that against him as to bring them home was to risk their lives. There's also like I said above, if he doesn't know that he got the woman pregnant, he can't be expected to take care of the baby.

Because Robert isn't the King of Westeros and did whatever the hell he wanted, right? And Cersei wouldn't have dared to lift a finger against one of his bastards while Robert lived...hence her rampage AFTER he died. Whlist Robert lived, those children were fine.

As to your last point: Mya Stone says hi.

[markg171]

Find me more of these elusive Starks who brought home their bastards to raise and called them son for everyone to see and raised them right alongside their true born children.

Well if the tale of Bael the Bard is to be believed, then we have a bastard who became Lord of Winterfell. That's not really a case of raising your own bastard, but Lord Brandon Stark raised his daughter's bastard.

And then quickly looking at the wiki on House Stark:

- There's a Brandon Snow who was King Torrhen's bastard brother

- Lonnel Snow who was Lord Brandon Stark and Lady Wylla Fenn's son

So there's at least 3 cases of Starks raising bastards. Ned makes 4.

Because Robert isn't the King of Westeros and did whatever the hell he wanted, right? And Cersei wouldn't have dared to lift a finger against one of his bastards while Robert lived...hence her rampage AFTER he died. Whlist Robert lived, those children were fine.

As to your last point: Mya Stone says hi.

Cersei already did kill some of Robert's bastards though, while Robert was alive.

Littlefinger shrugged. Rivulets of moisture twisted down the back of his cloak. “Does it matter? If you bed enough women, some will give you presents, and His Grace has never been shy on that count. I know he’s acknowledged that boy at Storm’s End, the one he fathered the night Lord Stannis wed. He could hardly do otherwise. The mother was a Florent, niece to the Lady Selyse, one of her bedmaids. Renly says that Robert carried the girl upstairs during the feast, and broke in the wedding bed while Stannis and his bride were still dancing. Lord Stannis seemed to think that was a blot on the honor of his wife’s House, so when the boy was born, he shipped him off to Renly.” He gave Ned a sideways glance. “I’ve also heard whispers that Robert got a pair of twins on a serving wench at Casterly Rock, three years ago when he went west for Lord Tywin’s tourney. Cersei had the babes killed, and sold the mother to a passing slaver. Too much an affront to Lannister pride, that close to home.”

And Mya Stone was looked after. She works for House Arryn. That's not bad for a bastard.

[IceFire125]

Find me more of these elusive Starks who brought home their bastards to raise and called them son for everyone to see and raised them right alongside their true born children.

Because Robert isn't the King of Westeros and did whatever the hell he wanted, right? And Cersei wouldn't have dared to lift a finger against one of his bastards while Robert lived...hence her rampage AFTER he died. Whlist Robert lived, those children were fine.

As to your last point: Mya Stone says hi.

Lyanna had only smiled. “Love is sweet, dearest Ned, but it cannot change a man’s nature.”

[BearQueen87]

Well if the tale of Bael the Bard is to be believed, then we have a bastard who became Lord of Winterfell. That's not really a case of raising your own bastard, but Lord Brandon Stark raised his daughter's bastard.

And then quickly looking at the wiki on House Stark:

- There's a Brandon Snow who was King Torrhen's bastard brother

- Lonnel Snow who was Lord Brandon Stark and Lady Wylla Fenn's son

So there's at least 3 cases of Starks raising bastards. Ned makes 4.

1. Very extinuating cirucumstances. Also a myth. Toss it out to be fair.

2. I knew about the other two. Now, you've got two Starks, one of whom isn't exactly known out of 6,000-8,000 years of Stark history.

What does that make it? EXCEEDINGLY RARE. It's not a common event for the Starks. It's RARE.

1.Cersei already did kill some of Robert's bastards though, while Robert was alive.

2.And Mya Stone was looked after. She works for House Arryn. That's not bad for a bastard.

1. There is no evidence for that, though. LF is even saying he "heard tell" I don't doubt that Cersei might *try* or that Robert fathered bastards on that poor serving girl, but it's a rumor.

2. And that was because of Lord Arryn, not because Robert gave a damn. Also, rather offensive that simply because she's a bastard she's not entitled to upkeep and looked after by at least one parent who knows she exists. Robert never mentions her; he shipped Edric off to Renly rather than deal with him--and IIRC he pretty much never saw him and it was others who sent Edric presents on his birthday, under the guise of Robert. And if the above rumor you pointed to is true, then he let his wife kill two of his children. This is to say nothing of his absentee and neglectful parenting to those that he thought were his own children.

[corbon]

Well someone told his soldiers.

The evidence suggests it was not Ned. Nor is what his soldiers whisper accurate, merely what might be a reasonable supposition from the limited more widely known facts.

Known Fact 1. Ned went off somewhere with a small band of close comrades, most of whom were never seen again.

Known Fact 2. Ned went to Starfall and returned the sword Dawn.

Known Fact 3. Dawn is a famous and unique sword carried by the legendary Ser Arthur Dayne.

Combine the three and you get Ned killing Dayne to get Dawn. Which is what the soldier gossip says, suitably embellished.

In other words, soldiers gossip is nothing more than their own guesses based on a small number of facts, not what they have been told by someone who was actually there.

Only Ned and Howland survived the fight, (1)yet Ned's soldiers know what he did after Storm's End. (2)So either Ned told them, or Howland told them seeing as they're the only ones who survived.

1. They don't "know", they are whispering rumours

2. Logical fallacy based on the first error. It isn't necessary for their data to have come from Ned or Howland because its not good data, its whispered rumours (and rumours that follow logically from a few know facts).

But I think there's actually a possible common misconception about what happened after Storm's End, and I think there might be a 3rd explanation. We're told that Ned and his companions went to the TOJ and that there were 7 of them. But how do we know that there was only the 7 of them? We actually have hints that there were more than just the 7 northmen.

We have the above statement about how Ned's soldiers know he killed Arthur Dayne, and how afterwards he traveled to Starfall. Now Ned isn't one to boast so he's not likely to be telling war stories. In fact, we know that he specifically doesn't talk about the war. And from little we know about Howland, he doesn't seem likely to go around telling these kind of stories either. Yet the troops have intimate details. As if they were there, or at least nearby.

They don't have intimate details. They tell a story which is doesn't fit with what Ned tells Bran. It doesn't directly contradict it, but it isn't the same and it is different in ways that matter. Their story is exactly as you would expect them to make up themselves in order to fit the facts they know.

The TOJ is stated to have been in the mountains. You wouldn't bring your whole army up the path to it, and likely couldn't have even if you wanted to. So if you wanted to take the TOJ, you'd go up with a few companions, and not your whole army. Hence why there were only Ned and 6 others. So when only Howland and Ned return, the soldiers can piece things together, or might have been able to have seen the whole thing themselves from where they watched and thus know the details without Ned or Howland having had to tell them.

Watchtower or not, you don't bring only 7 men to 'take' a tower with unless maaaybe by stealth, and there was no attempt of stealth in Ned's recollections. Maybe you can't bring a whole army (and even that is purely supposition), but you can certainly bring 30 or more men, for example.

Then there's also these that suggests there were more than just Ned and his 6.

Ned fought battles in the south, yet we only hear of Storm's End, which wasn't a battle, and the TOJ, which wasn't really a battle either as there were only 10 combatants. Then Cersei believes that Ned fought in Dorne, and specifically a holdfast. Yet the only fight that we know of in Dorne, took place at the TOJ. Which isn't a holdfast. So we are missing battles in Dorne, and battles require armies. So if Ned was fighting in dorne, he had his armies with him. Which would explain how his soldiers know about the TOJ and his visit to Starfall. Because they were there.

The first quote doesn't say that there were battles, just that at the time he rode out he was prepared to do any cleanup fighting that was necessary. At that stage, riding out from KL in a cold rage, any 'battles' in the south are future possibilities only. Also see below. There were no battles in Dorne, period.

The second quote isn't even necessarily what Cersei believes (and even if it was, Cersei is an idiot who doesn't actually pay any attention to facts that don't agree with what she needs at the time).

From (SSM)

Q. First. When Cersei and Ned talked in the godswood in aGoT, she mentioned Jon, and wondered who his mother was, (paraphrasing) "...Some peasant wife you raped, while her holdfast burned?" This indicates that there were fightings in Dorne when Ned went there to get Lyanna back. But I thought the Martells stayed out of the war, and that Ned went there when the war was all over. So: did Ned take an army with him into Dorne, or not?

A. Ned's army did not accompany him to Dorne, no. There were no battles in Dorne during Robert's Rebellion, though doubtless there were minor skirmishes along the borders. But it's not entirely correct that the Martells stayed out of the war. Rhaegar had Dornish troops with him on the Trident, under the command of Prince Lewyn of the Kingsguard. However, the Dornishmen did not support him as strongly as they might have, in part because of anger at his treatment of Elia, in part because of Prince Doran's innate caution. Cersei's line reflects no more than a desire to wound, to say something nasty to get a rise out of Ned.

Interesting to note that 7v3 at a watchtower in the Prince's Pass is pretty much exactly a 'minor skirmish along the border''.

And finally, had Ned had his armies with him, it explains how he pulled down the TOJ. Howland and Ned pulling down the tower is hard to imagine. If he had an army to help, it's easily explained.

He didn't have his armies with him.

A watchtower abandoned probably over 100 years ago. At least two men and probably at least a dozen horses. It wouldn't be that hard to pull down the tower.

So I think we're all just assuming that there was only Ned and his companions who went to the the TOJ. We actually have a decent amount of evidence suggesting that an entire army went, but only Ned and his 6 fought.

No evidence at all, and Word of God that it didn't go.

[Alia of the knife]

IMO Ned's tension, if in fact related to Jon, had less to do with Robert and more to do with the pack of Lannisters that accompanied him. Throughout most of AGOT, Ned seems perfectly capable of gladhandling Robert and deflecting his bluster until it gets backed up by/supplemented with Lannister treachery. Many of Ned's actions and reactions boil down to protecting those he loves from Cersei in particular. I don't think it was Robert's radar he was trying to fly Jon underneath.

I would agree with that.

Though I'm not sure Jaime and Cersie are any brighter than Bob, they probably were exposed to Rhaegar more than Robert, so would have been more likely to recognize something in Jon.

Jaime actually mentions Robert doing what he did for a "pretty face," which suggests to me that since Jaime also noted that about Lyanna, he might have recognized the attributes of both parents in Jon.

[Arya Targaryen]

1. Very extinuating cirucumstances. Also a myth. Toss it out to be fair.

2. I knew about the other two. Now, you've got two Starks, one of whom isn't exactly known out of 6,000-8,000 years of Stark history.

What does that make it? EXCEEDINGLY RARE. It's not a common event for the Starks. It's RARE.

There is also at least one Stark bastard, who became LC of the NW before he turned 16 (younger than Jon).

Sure, we don't know anything about him, but it kinda makes sense for him to be raised at Wf, because if he is fostered somewhere, he might have had a different future, he wouln't join the Watch at such a young age, And why would the Watch choose him for LC, if he wasn't on really friendly terms (mean: raised at Wf) with the current Lord of Wf.

I am also not so sure if the North, as a separate kingdom before Torrhen, would foster bastards at different Houses. They might, I just don't remember any evidence from the books. For all we know, the Andals might have brought this tradition in, and after Torrhen, it became sort of normal in the North as well. Except for the Starks.

[BearQueen87]

There is also at least one Stark bastard, who became LC of the NW before he turned 16 (younger than Jon).

Sure, we don't know anything about him, but it kinda makes sense for him to be raised at Wf, because if he is fostered somewhere, he might have had a different future, he wouln't join the Watch at such a young age, And why would the Watch choose him for LC, if he wasn't on really friendly terms (mean: raised at Wf) with the current Lord of Wf.

Perhaps but that still means it's exceedingly rare. Finding 3 cases in which a bastard was raised at WF does not a trend make when we're looking at 6000-8000 years of Stark/WF history.

Also, not sure if I agree that it means he must have been raised at WF. He could easily have been sent away to be raised as if the more common practice--learn to be a page or a cupbearer, and then decided he'd rather go to the Wall. Both are equally possible. And the Watch doesn't chose who their next LC will be based on if they are on friendly terms with WF or not. I mean...Bloodraven.

I am also not so sure if the North, as a separate kingdom before Torrhen, would foster bastards at different Houses. They might, I just don't remember any evidence from the books. For all we know, the Andals might have brought this tradition in, and after Torrhen, it became sort of normal in the North as well. Except for the Starks.

The evidence would be that at best we only have 2 examples of bastards not being fostered out/ left with their mothers to be raised.

The evidence would also be that we have little to no evidence of any bastard uprising and trying to take their "rightful" place as Lord of WF if they were the older son, which is statistically likely given the culture of Westeros.

[RumHam]

And the Watch doesn't chose who their next LC will be based on if they are on friendly terms with WF or not. I mean...Bloodraven.

I'm confused, did Bloodraven not get along with the Starks?

[markg171]

I'm confused, did Bloodraven not get along with the Starks?

I think he meant that Bloodraven didn't get along with anybody

[Arya Targaryen]

And the Watch doesn't chose who their next LC will be based on if they are on friendly terms with WF or not. I mean...Bloodraven.

The only reason to choose a 10-year-old boy for LC is because he is on friendly terms with the Starks. There cannot be any other reason. Bloodraven was an adult, and he clearly had the abilities. In the time of the Kings of Winter the Watch did not lack officer material, they had plenty of knights and 3rd sons of Lords to choose from. To choose a child, they clearly had some reason. And it is telling that in only happened with Starks or Stark bastards. That's not coincidence.

And we found at least 3 Stark bastards who were probably raised at Winterfell. And we don't know of any who wasn't. That's kinda the point.

[RumHam]

I think he meant that Bloodraven didn't get along with anybody

Aw come on I don't believe that. He was feared by the commons but I'm sure he had some friends.