Slaughterhouse Mexico - US failure

[Shryke]

Well, Arakan, there are other Germans on this board and from my German POV, if there are two countries neighbouring the US and one is a prosperous democracy and the other a den of corruption in a de-facto state of civil war, it looks like the reasons for this are not (first and foremost) the evil US.

We can talk about how the war on drugs does more harm than good, but let's not pretend that the Mexican state - despite having all the necessary means at its disposition - is not only unable to protect its citizens from the cartel violence but also unwilling and in many cases actively participating via corrupt officials.

Indeed. US drug and gun are certainly making the situation worse but to pretend it's all the US's fault is to buy in to a rather silly oversimplification to support a previously decided position on all issues related to US foreign policy.

How is it that this is none of your concern (internal affair) when the same people in American policy are so eager to interfere in other countries far away?

There is both interference and calls for more. It's just a combination of you not knowing about it and their being other internal political issues preventing action on issues that could help (see - gun and drug laws)

Not to mention GWB starting two wars leading to less desire for direct foreign intervention of the sort you are seemingly calling for.

[Darzin]

Arakan what do you think the US should do? Because looking at Afghanistan a country the US is currently occupying, we've failed to stop the drug trade there soI'm not seeing what we can do for Mexico.

[awesome possum]

Maybe I am a naive European

The US has influence. Why dont use it to help your immediate neighbor?

Tell me, what are you doing to help your neighbor Ukraine? Isn't part of that conflict the EU trying to woo Ukraine into joining it or Ukraine wanting to join the EU and Russia throwing a fit? Therefore, aren't you partially responsible for the death and destruction going on in the Ukraine?

What are you doing about it? The EU has influence, why don't they use it to help their neighbor?

[Alarich]

Didnt I basically write that Mexico is a failed state?

You did, but we disagree in that I don't believe in your rather simple analysis that this is primarily the US responsibility.

There are two dimensions of US responsibility: a concrete one (US as biggest drug consumer in the world) and a metaphysical one.

Regarding drugs: Yes, the US are the biggest market because on average the US drug consumer has more disposable income than any other drug consumer on the entire continent and because the geographical proximity between the US border and the areas where the raw materials are grown make for easy transport. So basically, you have a rich nation sitting close to where the drugs can easily be produced. I agree that this makes for a formidable temptation, however I don't think that this is the fault of the US in particular. I don't see any US Administration proclaiming "hey, let's become the most attractive market for drugs on the Amercian continents!".

Regarding the metaphysical sphere, let's not forget that Sen. McCain is part of the American legislative body, not the government. He can go where he pleases and say what he wants, because he's not the one who is defining US foreign policy. And maybe we can also acknowledge that Mexican affairs, a direct neighbour with a history of often bloody conflict call for a different approach than a former Soviet satellite. Also, considering the large hispanic community in the US, foreign policy vis à vis Mexico (and indeed other Latin American countries, most notably Cuba) always have an important and much different impact on domestic policies in the US, than foreign policies vs. small, Eastern European countries. And where domestic policies are touched, the US government in Washington often has much less leeway than in "purely" foreign affairs, simply because the federal governance-structure of the US. So the whole issue of international relations with Mexico is extremely complicated, because even within the US and their varioius governing bodies there is not necessarily a consent on what to do and how to act.

[The Fallen]

Maybe I am a naive European but let me ask one thing: isn't it true that the US is THE main endcustomer destination for all the drugs? How can one be not be responsible when one is the demand? Without demand there is no supply, and thus no drug war in Mexico...

Besides that...the US has basically only two neighboring countries and in one of them we can witness for almost a decade now a massive humanitarian crisis, bloodshed and a failure of most public institutions. How is it that this is none of your concern (internal affair) when the same people in American policy are so eager to interfere in other countries far away?

I dont understand it, please enlighten me.
That's like saying from a German pov: hey in the Czech republic a massive drug war kills ten thousands of people every year but not my business. A bag of rice was stolen in Sri Lanka? Yeah that's my business.

The US has influence. Why dont use it to help your immediate neighbor?

The first I would make is that Mexico is a sovereign nation and as far as I know has never asked the U.S. to come take care of their problems. The U.S. and Mexico work together along the border and with anti-drug trafficking policies. But there's only so much we can do because, again, Mexico is a sovereign state.

If the U.S. was to forcefully get involved then we'd be criticized for meddling in our neighbor's domestic affairs, and rightly so.

Didnt I basically write that Mexico is a failed state?
There are two dimensions of US responsibility: a concrete one (US as biggest drug consumer in the world) and a metaphysical one.

For a country whose foreign policy has been defined under many administrations by fighting for freedom, justice and democracy (a truly messianic foreign policy isnt it :)), isnt it a bit strange to interfere everywhere in the world but basically ignoring the slaughterhouse south to its border? Why does someone like McCain travel thousands of miles to show support for anti-corruption protesters? Why doesnt he just travel to Mexico City? Enough corruption ongoing there

Failed state aside, although I don't agree with that assessment, Mexico isn't a former communist country fighting to free itself from the clutches of a foreign power.

Second, why the obsession with McCain. He's but a Senator. He's not the president, nor is he in the cabinet of the Obama administration. Who gives a fuck what McCain thinks or what he does? He's as much an embarrassment here as he is to you.

[Shryke]

McCain likes to pretend he's the President by flying to places and beating the war drum. He's always done that. Everybody who matters ignores him.

[Ramsay Gimp]

McCain likes to pretend he's the President by flying to places and beating the war drum. He's always done that. Everybody who matters ignores him.

Still hoping for the day he gets blown up on one of these obnoxious photo ops

[Glaurung]

Maybe I am a naive European but let me ask one thing: isn't it true that the US is THE main endcustomer destination for all the drugs? How can one be not be responsible when one is the demand? Without demand there is no supply, and thus no drug war in Mexico...

Besides that...the US has basically only two neighboring countries and in one of them we can witness for almost a decade now a massive humanitarian crisis, bloodshed and a failure of most public institutions. How is it that this is none of your concern (internal affair) when the same people in American policy are so eager to interfere in other countries far away?

The US has influence. Why dont use it to help your immediate neighbor?

What does the US being the end-customer have to do with anything? What can the US do? Tell people to not do drugs? We already do that. But people have disposable income and people like to do drugs no matter how illegal you make them. If you want to pin Mexico's problems on the US because US citizens buy drugs, then I guess the US can blame Mexico because they funnel the drugs into our country.... There are always 2 sides to every coin. Yes you can't have supply without demand, but you also can't have demand without supply. People will always want to do drugs and as long as Americans have disposable income there will be people wanting to buy these drugs. It is on Mexico to fight the corruption in their own country.

As to why we don't offer support....well we do. We only offer as much support as is asked though. We can't just force ourselves into the situation, Mexico is a sovereign nation. Even if they were to ask for more help, I'm sure there would still be plenty of people complaining about any enhanced presence in Mexico.

I think as others have pointed out, that if you think the US owes it to Mexico to help them out, then Germany owes it to the Ukraine to stand up to Russia and help their sovereign neighbor.

[S John]

Regarding drugs: Yes, the US are the biggest market because on average the US drug consumer has more disposable income than any other drug consumer on the entire continent and because the geographical proximity between the US border and the areas where the raw materials are grown make for easy transport. So basically, you have a rich nation sitting close to where the drugs can easily be produced. I agree that this makes for a formidable temptation, however I don't think that this is the fault of the US in particular. I don't see any US Administration proclaiming "hey, let's become the most attractive market for drugs on the Amercian continents!".

I think it's also worth mentioning that while the American people are the largest black market consumers of those drugs coming across the border, drug possession and trafficking are also illegal in the United States. From the standpoint of the feds, anti-drug policy has been the name of the game for a long time. Much like with gay marriage, reform (which really only applies to marijuana anyway) seems to be happening at the state level. US citizens have the money and the demand for drugs despite the best efforts of the Feds to ban, punish, imprison, and inform via anti-drug campaigns that we all had to sit through repeatedly in school. When supply meets demand, there is a lot of money to be made many people on both sides of the border will disregard the law and find a way.

Ending the drug war on the US side of the border might help alleviate some of Mexico's woes, and I'm personally in favor of across the board decriminalization of marijuana along with a few changes in the way that we (in the US) punish drug offenders. But even then, that is only one substance among many making their way across and fueling extremely dangerous criminal organizations. I don't think it is the responsibility of the US to tailor domestic drug policy with Mexico in mind, nor should it be the responsibility of the US to enforce Mexican drug policy. As has been pointed out, the US deals with significant drug-related violence itself, but the pervasive corruption in their own government is a major part of what makes it so much worse Mexico.

The other major factor in Mexico is poverty, which makes the potentially lucrative drug trade more appealing to more people south of the border. Mexico is a major trading partner of the United States for legal goods as well as illegal. Lots of commerce across the border. The US can only do so much to help Mexico without direct intervention which would very likely be resented in Mexico and highly unpopular in the US as well. I don't really know what the answer to Mexico's problems are but I think it is clear that they need to first look to cleaning the corruption from in their own house.

[Inigima]

Yes, the US is the big consumer of Mexican drugs. We are also, you know, next door. Do you believe that this is anything other than an accident of geography?

[Arakan]

First of all I have to apologize: of course my initial post was a bit provocative, deliberately so.

Second, thanks for some great feedback.

[Arakan]

Tell me, what are you doing to help your neighbor Ukraine? Isn't part of that conflict the EU trying to woo Ukraine into joining it or Ukraine wanting to join the EU and Russia throwing a fit? Therefore, aren't you partially responsible for the death and destruction going on in the Ukraine?

What are you doing about it? The EU has influence, why don't they use it to help their neighbor?

Very weak comparison, very weak. But I guess you are aware of it yourself

But if you follow the news you will see that Germany is trying to help Ukraine. And the Ukraine will be better off in the long-term if it listens more to Germany than to the US or some Eastern European countries like Poland who clearly want to use the Ukraine to antagonize Russia, maybe due to own complexes who knows.

But this is a thread about Mexico :)

[MercenaryChef]

the key i think would be the united states to execute all drug users.

mexico will have no neighboring country to sell drugs to due to a lack of customers and the cartels will all disband and take up farming and ranching.

without the cartels to help fuel the corruption the police and politicians will go to creating and upholding laws.

my guess is mexico will be as prosperous as canada by the end of the week.

[Arakan]

Yes, the US is the big consumer of Mexican drugs. We are also, you know, next door. Do you believe that this is anything other than an accident of geography?

I think you didnt get my point.

[Arakan]

the key i think would be the united states to execute all drug users.

mexico will have no neighboring country to sell drugs to due to a lack of customers and the cartels will all disband and take up farming and ranching.

without the cartels to help fuel the corruption the police and politicians will go to creating and upholding laws.

my guess is mexico will be as prosperous as canada by the end of the week.

I have to say I like the humour.

[MercenaryChef]

I have to say I like the humour.

who says this proposal is meant to be funny?

this is just the united states really taking the war on drugs seriously and taking responsibility for the plight of mexico in which they are no less than 100% responsible for.

it is time for the united states to do the right thing.

[Arakan]

the key i think would be the united states to execute all drug users.

mexico will have no neighboring country to sell drugs to due to a lack of customers and the cartels will all disband and take up farming and ranching.

without the cartels to help fuel the corruption the police and politicians will go to creating and upholding laws.

my guess is mexico will be as prosperous as canada by the end of the week.

I have to say I like the humour.

[Alarich]

I think you didnt get my point.

I believe your point was received, considered and rejected.

[Spring Bass]

Ending the drug bans would definitely help, but the gangs in Mexico at this point tend to have diversified into other non-drug forms of revenue (particularly extortion). I think the only thing that's going to really counter that is more local accountability for police and government officials, and reforms in the judicial system to make it more responsive in general (the percentage of unsolved crimes in Mexico is absolutely appalling).

The gangs themselves just need to be physically overpowered, to the point where they surrender when confronted by police and the army rather than shooting back. If you don't have that, you can't get anything else. Of course, they'd be more inclined to surrender if they don't think they'll get murdered by the police/army after doing so.

[S John]

This thread reminds me a bit of a conversation I recently had with a friend of mine. Occasionally we both like to sit around and bitch about the US and all of the things that we would like to change about the way our government does business both at home and around the world. We are both Americans, for the record. Most of these qualms come down to two things. One - examples where US leadership has failed to uphold the ideals for which the country claims to stand (things like gitmo, CIA torture programs, NSA spying on us). Two - less intervention abroad. In several ways the US has fallen short of maintaining the moral high ground and has certainly made the mistake of over-involvement in many corners of the globe.

That said, the US is really in a no-win position in the realm of global public opinion. As the only real superpower for the last 20 years, and the de facto power base of the West since the end of WW2, much is expected of the United States whether we (or anyone else) likes it or not. When the US acts, those actions are center stage by nature of the position the US currently occupies and an easy target for criticism even when something is handled well. When the US does not act, many ask - why hasn't the US done something to solve this problem? No doubt, blaming the USA will soon rival soccer for things that are really popular everywhere else... but not as much in the US.

I'm not excusing any of America's sins, of which there are many. But it's worth pointing out that the US does not bear responsibility for all of the world's problems and, all things considered, if there's going to be a single world superpower... it could be a hell of a lot worse. I wish we were a quiet little isolated country that didn't bother anyone else and that nobody bothers in return, but that is not really in the cards for the US anymore. Even if those running the country agreed with my ideal, we are past the point where that is realistic as the US is probably the most important major player when it comes to maintaining global stability. It would likely be an even worse outcome to simply take a bow and leave a power vacuum.

The status of Mexico is a fine example of the US's inability to do anything right before they have even done anything. Clearly, many believe that Mexico's woes are the fault of the US meddling. And, as such, the solution is... for the US to get more involved!? In fact, why hasn't the USA done MORE?

That line of thinking doesn't make any sense and it downplays the role that Mexico itself plays in Mexico's problems, which is counter-productive to ignore.