Does Ned Stark bother you too?

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Why is everytime i discuss this things.. somebody come up with me saying starks ARE EVIL! When i did that? That is the reason a brought this things up, because you start analyzing Ned Starks acts.. and suddenly i am making him evil, such a intouchable man...

And is not about Bran getting better, is about staying with his family a little longer and give support.

That's not how things worked in the world Ned lived in. It's normal for them to leave for years to other regions or send children away to foster. He remained in Winterfell all the time he could, and there was nothing else he could have done. Bran was kind of "stable" by the time he left. But Ned was needed in KL because the King wasn't going to wait anymore and he had a dangerous mystery and situation to solve.

Well it's a usual thing to wipe out the line of the deposed family to avoid future conflicts.. not really about predicting the future here, is about taking possible threats, blackfyres can teach a lot about that.. just he is always fine if it comes to war with comon dying for the highborns and stuff, but kill one person directly and is the end of the world.

Crowning Stannis was the right thing.. but i guess the bad thing too.. Do you guys feel the consenqueces would be the worts of all, comparing to the other scenarios? Turning a blind eye to Joffrey being a bastard and going back to the North, would that be so bad?

The thing is that Ned didn't have the information that we, as omniscient readers, have. He only knows:

Jon Arryn has died.

Lysa, his wife's sister and Jon's wife, has sent a message saying it was the Lannisters. There is no way he could have imagined she was lying.

Robert has been his friend all his life. He could trust him. It was until later he realised what kind of man Robert turned out to be, hence, he resigned.

He knew the Lannisters' only interest was themselves. If he had left KL, Robert would have named Jaime the Hand of the King, hence, giving Tywin full control of the Seven Kingdoms, which was dangerous because, as far as Ned knew, they could have killed Arryn for this very same purpose.

Also, while he never trusted LF, Cat did. That's why he took LF's information for real and made decisions based on them. But he had no idea he wasn't to be trusted. LF has played his role of trustworthy chap all his life.

About Dany, for him, Dany was just some girl married to a Dothraki. Dothrakis had no ambitions in Westeros. The Dothrakis sailing to Westeros was Varys' idea that was going to happen anyway because HE WANTED to provoke that situation. But, it wasnt in their nature to do it. For Ned being right, he would have needed to foreseen someone was instigating the Dothrakis from KL.

Also, look at the foundations of Robert's reign. They defeated the Targaryens because they got out of line and the King was mad and killing innocents. It was already bad that the Rebels were responsible for the death of Rhaegar's kids (something many in KL still remember, according to Tyrion), having Robert doing the same would have been terrible propaganda, specially if we consider Robert said some still called him an Usurper. I think they were aware that some Targaryen loyalists were still around in the shadows. Letting them know Robert sent a murderer to kill a pregnant thirteen years old girl could have served as an excuse for a new rebellion or an uprising.

[Lord of Nutella]

Not bothered at all. He has made mistakes, but who doesnt, and he really had all odds against him.

As a person, I think he is great. Some people portray his sense for honor as cold and stiff, but that is not true at all. His honor is not his primary motivation, but his heart is, and because his heart happens to be impressively pure, his deeds usually lign up with duty and honor, but if he has to, he abandons his duty to protect the ones he loves, as we see him do when he 'confesses his crimes' or, if you believe RLJ, when he takes Jon.

He was naive to tell Cersei, yes. But he would have gotten away with that if not for Sansa. And if Renly had not been such a dick...what I wanna say is, its not as if he had made a complete moron out of himself.

So no, im not bothered at all. If anything, hes a paragon.

[Seaworth'sShipmate]

I like Ned, but he bothers me a little bit.

I find him a bit self-righteous and judgmental at times.

Although his honor comes from the right place, it seems a bit selfish at times, because it makes him "have to do" certain things even if it leads to pain and suffering for others (i.e confronting the queen and backing Stannis, though the latter wasn't so bad :cool4: )

[Chancho]

I Like Stannis as a king myself. but the Realm surely doesn't!

[BalerionTheCat]

Ned was very much honor driven and had difficulties understanding anyone with a different honor code. When Ned found Gared, he barely thought about it, before beheading him. Gared needed care. He probably could have resumed his post. Or be discharged. He would not have been a threat. He was not a criminal. On the other hand, Ned was far too lenient and naive with Cersei who had asked for Lady's live and was supposed to be behind Jon Arryn death, and his son fall and attempted murder. Joffrey was no question a monster and should die also for the greater good of the realm. But conceivably, something could have been done for the younger children. I don't think Cersei would be given the same opportunity if she was a commoner.

But all nobles are like that. It is the spirit of this time. Ned was better than most. But still one of them.

[Viserys - The last dragon]

Sometimes I feel really left out that I didn't get to read the version of the books with the evil Starks.

That said everyone's done stupid things in their life. If you show me someone who says they haven't, I'll show you a liar.

Yeah, me too. I could not agree with this statement more.

[Liaraeyne]

He has made his mistakes, but I like him because he was such a good person. Ned was murdered by the psychopaths surrounding him; not by his stupidity/naivety. Know the enemy and the victim.

[Petyr's Little Finger]

No I like Ned, he might have been naive and that naivity led him to do things he regretted but still he was a good man. He just thought others were like him.

[Colonel Green]

If you can really fault him it's his mercy towards Cersei Which was totally naive. Even so it would have been fine if Sansa hadn't betrayed his trust, Cersei says as much in clash.

Cersei is lying there to make herself sound impressive, because Sansa going to her like an hour beforehand was not the thing that prevented Ned from succeeding. He was already screwed.

In fact, Ned's telling Cersei wasn't actually what screwed him either, though Ned couldn't have known that, so it was still dumb. Ned was done in because he trusted Littlefinger to buy the Goldcloaks for him; having done that, it's irrelevant whether he tells Cersei or not, or whether Sansa goes to Cersei. His "coup" will fail whenever he attempts it.

[Lord Sapna]

Why is everytime i discuss this things.. somebody come up with me saying starks ARE EVIL! When i did that? That is the reason a brought this things up, because you start analyzing Ned Starks acts.. and suddenly i am making him evil, such a intouchable man...

I agree I don't know where Starks are evil came up it wasn't really the question you asked.

And is not about Bran getting better, is about staying with his family a little longer and give support.

Well there's arguments for and against, Sansa was engaged to Joffery before He had shown his true colours, and he would have potentially had to send Sansa away on his own. On the other hand Catelyn was very traumatised after Brans fall, and if he hadn't have gotten better she could have gone insane with grief. Also if you'll excuse the pun I think Ned was a bit of a bastard for sending Jon to the wall. I mean he knew what it had become.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Also if you'll excuse the pun I think Ned was a bit of a bastard for sending Jon to the wall. I mean he knew what it had become.

Ned didnt' send Jon to the Wall. It was something Jon wanted to do for very specific reasons. Neither Benjen or Ned objected his wishes. It was his age they had a problem with.

Also, despite the Wall is treated like a penal colony for Southerners, it's a different case for the Northerns. Men like Jeor Mormont and Royce joined by their own free will. Even Benjen, brother of the Warden of the North, joined because he wanted that life. If the Watch is good enough for them, it's good enough for Jon Snow :dunno:

I hate how Drogo is so popular among fans. It's funny that Robert is hated for his treatment of women by the same people who like Drogo despite him being a huge rapist.

Well, here is a big difference. Drogo does what he does to assure the survival of his people. It's not different from what Mance and many wildlings leaders do, as they are very aware of what the wildings can do once unleashed in Westeros. The wildlings also pillage and rape because they have to finds way to survive. Mance cared little for them to follow Westerosi rules. Yet, Mance loved his wife and he respected her. Drogo also learned to care for Dany and his baby. Among the wrong they could have done, there is some good too.

Robert, otoh, comes from a society where pillaging and raping is wrong, where bastards and adultery are seen as something sinful, where many of the things he did were marked as "shouldn't be done". Yet, he did them anyway. He never cared for his wife or any of his children, legitimate or not. Also, both Drogo and Mance were better leaders of their people than Robert was ever King. I'm not judging or comparing their actions, simply how they assumed their roles as leaders, husbands and parents. They all are much better than Robert was in any of those roles.

'Stallion who mounts the world.' In humbling Dany Mirri managed to do more for the small folk of Essos then Dany has managed to achieve in her campaigns.

As brutal as it was I understand why it had to happen. Look at Aegon. He may only be a boy that looks like he could be Rhaegars son but another war is happening, meaning people are being slaughtered because of who he is, or claims to be.

Mirri didn't humbled Dany. If anything, she made her smarter about how to deal with magic and prophecies. While many other characters follow them blindly, she doubts it and tries to be logical about them.

Also, what exactly Mirri did for the folk in Essos? Did MMD fight a war to free slaves? The idea of killing someone to "prevent" future damage is the kind of flawed argument and twisted sense of justice that Tywin Lannister uses to justify his murders, as I said above. Why not kill Rosling and her child so he wouldn't revolt against the Freys one day? Or why not killing Theon to prevent him from one day, maaaaybe, seek revenge against the Starks for the murder of his brothers? Why not going to every other enemy's house and kill his pregnant wife in order to prevent a possible insurrection?

Dany, during her time with the Dothrakis, was quite a naive innocent child. She didn't realise what going to Westeros implied, nor how the Dothrakis were going to get the money. Why would she? She didn't have the education required to make such assumptions. And, she was very much appalled at the destruction they were causing on her name and the name of her cause, that's why she saved Eoroeh and MMD in first place, because that's all she could have done. What MMD did was plain and pure revenge against Dany because she could target her: she was the weakest link in the chain of command of the Dothrakis (she got lucky Drogo got hurt). And unless she had been aware of Dany's initial plan to go and retake her father's throne, which it seems she didn't as the things she did she justified by saying she was simply stopping her child from doing deeds he hadn't even consider to do as he wasn't even born, she was simply punishing her for what Drogo has been doing his whole life, even before he met Dany.

Once Dany was free of Drogo's control and got her dragons, she started to make things on her own way. She wandered the desert with her people to find them a way to live. And she realised she needed to stay in order to actually save Meereen and her free men. By removing slavery from Essos, or at least, the place where mostly of the slavery chain starts, she's forcing a continent to make a change on their economy. If SB stops training and buying slaves, the Dothraki need a different way to make a living. That's a change that MMD was never going to make by JUST killing Rhaego. And that's the kind of change that obviously will cause a war, because the slavers won't simply give up their privileged life in order to create a new profitable industry in which they don't ever get their hands stained.

[Chancho]

I think Joffrey would probable be conviced to not wage any war agaisn't the north by Tywin, especially with winter coming. I guess everyone would be satisfied if Ned just disapeared.
Ned was like Littlefinger wet dream.. He created so much chaos without even trying.

[Lady Flandrensis]

Sometimes I feel really left out that I didn't get to read the version of the books with the evil Starks.

That said everyone's done stupid things in their life. If you show me someone who says they haven't, I'll show you a liar.

Yes! To dis him because he did what he was taught to do is silly. Who among us hasn't? The "upper class" especially needs to follow the rules in order to keep their station. It's just the way it is.

[James Arryn]

Ned's biggest problem was the fact that the game was late in the 4th quarter when he first stepped onto the field. He did okay, considering. Without Sansa he gets his family out and is either traded for Jaime or each one assures that the other will be safe.

[Leonardo]

Cersei is lying there to make herself sound impressive, because Sansa going to her like an hour beforehand was not the thing that prevented Ned from succeeding. He was already screwed.

In fact, Ned's telling Cersei wasn't actually what screwed him either, though Ned couldn't have known that, so it was still dumb. Ned was done in because he trusted Littlefinger to buy the Goldcloaks for him; having done that, it's irrelevant whether he tells Cersei or not, or whether Sansa goes to Cersei. His "coup" will fail whenever he attempts it.

Except no, she says to Tyrion in clash the only reason they prevented the coup in as because of Sansa and even then it was "a near thing"

Ned was not screwed until Sansa told Cersei the plans, fact

[James Arryn]

Cersei is lying there to make herself sound impressive, because Sansa going to her like an hour beforehand was not the thing that prevented Ned from succeeding. He was already screwed.

No, in fact in the exact same comversation she mea culpas a few times, and GRRM has specifically said that Sansa bears responsibility for Ned's fate.

In fact, Ned's telling Cersei wasn't actually what screwed him either, though Ned couldn't have known that, so it was still dumb. Ned was done in because he trusted Littlefinger to buy the Goldcloaks for him; having done that, it's irrelevant whether he tells Cersei or not, or whether Sansa goes to Cersei. His "coup" will fail whenever he attempts it.

No, Sansa's betrayal probably doesn't keep Ned out of Lannister hands, but it does keep her (and in theory Arya) safe, meaning they can't afford to kill or condemn Ned with Jaime in Stark hands. But with Ned AND Sansa, they can afford to send him to the Wall and/or kill him with Sansa as assurance for Jaime. And lastly Ned places his honour above his life, so there's no way he confesses. He was quite happy to die a man of honour rather than confess to treason to save his neck.

But ironically he places the life of the daughter who betrayed him higher still, and so dies after surrendering his honour, for Sansa's sake. If she doesn't go to Cersei, he probably lives and certainly keeps his honour.