Voice Posted March 21, 2015 Share Posted March 21, 2015 I have no idea how it took me this long to find this thread but I'm so happy I have! It's like finally seeing land after drifting out at sea for so long. I'm a heratic in so many, many ways. I'm firmly in the "it'll be much more interesting if Arthur Dayne is Jon's father" camp (made a post over on reddit which surprise surprise wasn't very well received), I think Ned and Ashara actually did have a stillborn daughter or they have a bastard daughter (whom might be Allyria) together, Lyanna did not willingly go off with Rhaegar...the list goes on and on but I'll try to restrain myself for the time being. I'm looking forward to getting caught up (on the current thread at least...can't promise anything about the other 158 threads!) and delving into interesting discussions! You lot seem like a fantastic bunch. Welcome! :cheers: Warning: it's addictive... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voice Posted March 21, 2015 Share Posted March 21, 2015 The one Black Crow keeps putting at the start of Heresy threads is what I'm referring to: "Continuing the most imaginative and ambitious epic fantasy since The Lord of the Rings Winter has come at last and no man can say whether it will ever go again. The Wall is broken, the cold dead legions are coming south, and the people of the Seven Kingdoms turn to their queen to protect them. But Daenerys Targaryen is learning what Robert Baratheon learned before her; that it is one thing to win a throne and quite another to sit on one. Before she can hope to defeat the Others, Dany knows she must unite the broken realm behind her. Wolf and lion must hunt together, maester and greenseer work as one, all the blood feuds must be put aside, the bitter rivals and sworn enemies join hands. The Winds of Winter tells the story of Dany’s fight to save her new-won kingdom, of two desperate journeys beyond the known world in to the very hearts of ice and fire, and of the final climactic battle at Winterfell, with life itself in the balance." I don't trust it fully, but whoever wrote it was well informed. It doesn't sound like GRRM to state the first line, and toot his own horn like that. And it clearly doesn't fit with the tone or space of the redacted portion of the 1993 letter. But, it makes some broad sweeping statements that sound rather spoilerish. I'm thinking it is from an editor, Parris, or someone employed by the publisher who was familiar enough with the series to throw their own hopeful theories into the blurb. I don't see GRRM giving away the location of the final climactic battle, nor Dany's storyline. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
History of Westeros Posted March 21, 2015 Share Posted March 21, 2015 I don't trust it fully, but whoever wrote it was well informed. It doesn't sound like GRRM to state the first line, and toot his own horn like that. And it clearly doesn't fit with the tone or space of the redacted portion of the 1993 letter. But, it makes some broad sweeping statements that sound rather spoilerish. I'm thinking it is from an editor, Parris, or someone employed by the publisher who was familiar enough with the series to throw their own hopeful theories into the blurb. I don't see GRRM giving away the location of the final climactic battle, nor Dany's storyline. Yeah I agree. I kinda don't trust it at all based on similar feelings about these points. Particularly your last sentence re: how obvious it is that GRRM would not reveal such details. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eira Seren Posted March 21, 2015 Share Posted March 21, 2015 The problem is that we know so little about either but Quaithe's interventions all appear to be aimed at warning her off people with their own agendas. Whether this is intended to keep her out of Westeros and send her in a different direction entirely - or the reverse - remains to be seen Am tempted to read her as part of the enigmatic and therefore untrusted stock people put in prophecies, something which GRRM has a lot of fun with. And even though she's into threes, this means nothing. Certainly. He's talking about the mythology --> theory jump: Of course he's right about that. GRRM's idea of a clever puzzle is not one that requires people to be familiar with Welsh mythology to figure it out. The canon alone will always suffice. He's gone to enormous trouble to set up his clues, make sure his characters only know what they're supposed to know and act on that basis, etc., exactly so that we as smart readers can sift through it and figure it out. (And man, that was a lot of work on his part.) Thing is, Heretical discussion is less about jumping straight from myths to theories, and much more about questioning casual assumptions, fantasy tropes, and cliched/predictable character and plot development. When I read the theories Ran endorsed in that AMA, I just had to chuckle. GRRM's best-informed fan... that late in the game... saying things like that! But I'll at least give him credit for sticking out his neck in one area, the prediction that Quaithe is Ashara. I have no idea where he got that one. Is there even any indication that Ashara has some kind of magical ability? Leanings in that direction? Anything? Why on earth would she take off to Asshai to become an apprentice? Am all for voyages of self-discovery, but this one seems extreme. But the key difference between Quaithe and an oracle would be that the oracle typically waits for you to come and ask for advice. Ambiguity is part of the deal... caveat emptor, know thyself, etc. In contrast, given that nobody ever asks Quaithe for her opinion, she really ought to speak more clearly. After a while, the unsolicited riddles just come across as trolling. This :agree: Quaithe: Are you there, Dany? It's me, Quaithe. Dany: OMG. Not you again. Quaithe: But I have more cryptic messages. Dany: Whatever. I'm putting my fingers in my ears. Quaithe: Beware the punani magic pizza! Dany: You're totally trolling me. I must keep calm and not feed the troll. I'm using the Ignore feature. Quaithe: Three orgasms shall you have by the eerie hand! Dany: Oh yeah, I absolutely believe your sage wisdom. :lmao: That pizza. . . it isn't blue, is it? 'Cause it's got as much potency as dreamwine or shade of the evening. It even makes characters employ comic sans. . . I have no idea how it took me this long to find this thread but I'm so happy I have! It's like finally seeing land after drifting out at sea for so long. I'm a heratic in so many, many ways. I'm firmly in the "it'll be much more interesting if Arthur Dayne is Jon's father" camp (made a post over on reddit which surprise surprise wasn't very well received), I think Ned and Ashara actually did have a stillborn daughter or they have a bastard daughter (whom might be Allyria) together, Lyanna did not willingly go off with Rhaegar...the list goes on and on but I'll try to restrain myself for the time being. I'm looking forward to getting caught up (on the current thread at least...can't promise anything about the other 158 threads!) and delving into interesting discussions! You lot seem like a fantastic bunch. Welcome, Heretic! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Urrax2 Posted March 21, 2015 Share Posted March 21, 2015 Blurbs like the one discussed above are usually intended for the inside flap of the dust jacket, and aimed at potential buyers browsing in bookstores. They are written in the publisher's PR department, quite possibly by an intern who flipped through the book the day before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eira Seren Posted March 21, 2015 Share Posted March 21, 2015 Blurbs like the one discussed above are usually intended for the inside flap of the dust jacket, and aimed at potential buyers browsing in bookstores. They are written in the publisher's PR department, quite possibly by an intern who flipped through the book the day before. Much of it seems like pure marketing, heavy on promises. This blurb almost does a little jig right there in the bookstore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Snowfyre Chorus Posted March 21, 2015 Share Posted March 21, 2015 The one Black Crow keeps putting at the start of Heresy threads is what I'm referring to: "Continuing the most imaginative and ambitious epic fantasy since The Lord of the Rings Winter has come at last and no man can say whether it will ever go again. The Wall is broken, the cold dead legions are coming south, and the people of the Seven Kingdoms turn to their queen to protect them. But Daenerys Targaryen is learning what Robert Baratheon learned before her; that it is one thing to win a throne and quite another to sit on one. Before she can hope to defeat the Others, Dany knows she must unite the broken realm behind her. Wolf and lion must hunt together, maester and greenseer work as one, all the blood feuds must be put aside, the bitter rivals and sworn enemies join hands. The Winds of Winter tells the story of Danys fight to save her new-won kingdom, of two desperate journeys beyond the known world in to the very hearts of ice and fire, and of the final climactic battle at Winterfell, with life itself in the balance."BC will correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe he found this one on Amazon's German website. Or perhaps India? Regardless, the majority of it was clearly written long ago - before AFFC was published, at the latest... and probably before ASOS, or much earlier. The only thing in it that I view as the least bit spoilerish, is the apparent confirmation that the Wall will fall. And that's not much of a spoiler, obviously. Otherwise, Martin has changed his story so much that I'm not sure the rest of it is relevant. It certainly doesn't say much, if it tells us anything at all.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wolfmaid7 Posted March 21, 2015 Share Posted March 21, 2015 I know I'm a day behind but :agree: Bran's blood makes him a greenseer. Maybe he was picked early in life with his accident forcing the situation, but he is who he should be. As long as he chooses to carry on he will be a greenseer. I mean, if the singing folk were looking for a bad mofo to take up the cause then why not pick Varamyr or Euron even? Because they were lacking something. Something that Bran has. I have no doubt Bran is a Greenseer,i think all the Stark kids are or has the blood.But i think Bloodraven's words cannot be dismissed for two reasson. 1. The gods mark those "they" want for whatever reason to recieve the gift.Red eyes/Green eyes and i think this comes down to the inner most things we don't understand in why magic does the things it does and chooses who it does.Magic here now not an individual.Based on this criteria that BR said is observed in the choosing, Jon and Rickon through their direwolves are counterparts.It is they who the gods marked. 2.Therefore,BR chose to ignore this and snagged Bran,meaning he is intentionally going off the reservation.Bran is his choice and has something i agree that makes him more apt to be BR's tool than Magic's To be fair I don't think that Ran was dismissing the mythology, although it may have come over a bit that way, but rather the extrapolation of it to figure out how this will end. As I've said before its good to figure out the ingredients but its GRRM's recipe as to how much of each goes in to the blender and what comes out of the comes out of the oven. Bloodraven and Kurtz are one and the same but there's much more to this than the Heart of Darkness, and a story which mingles it with the Mabinogion, the Tain, Ragnarok and all the other influences historical and mythological, isn't going to turn out as any one of them did simply due to the diversity of the sources. It's GRRM's story, not theirs. All of which being said it remains both educational and fun to explore them in a way which seems unique to Heresy. Agreed Quaithe: Are you there, Dany? It's me, Quaithe. Dany: OMG. Not you again. Quaithe: But I have more cryptic messages. Dany: Whatever. I'm putting my fingers in my ears. Quaithe: Beware the punani magic pizza! Dany: You're totally trolling me. I must keep calm and not feed the troll. I'm using the Ignore feature. Quaithe: Three orgasms shall you have by the eerie hand! Dany: Oh yeah, I absolutely believe your sage wisdom. :lmao: To early to have me laughing like this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted March 21, 2015 Author Share Posted March 21, 2015 The one Black Crow keeps putting at the start of Heresy threads is what I'm referring to: "Continuing the most imaginative and ambitious epic fantasy since The Lord of the Rings Winter has come at last and no man can say whether it will ever go again. The Wall is broken, the cold dead legions are coming south, and the people of the Seven Kingdoms turn to their queen to protect them. But Daenerys Targaryen is learning what Robert Baratheon learned before her; that it is one thing to win a throne and quite another to sit on one. Before she can hope to defeat the Others, Dany knows she must unite the broken realm behind her. Wolf and lion must hunt together, maester and greenseer work as one, all the blood feuds must be put aside, the bitter rivals and sworn enemies join hands. The Winds of Winter tells the story of Dany’s fight to save her new-won kingdom, of two desperate journeys beyond the known world in to the very hearts of ice and fire, and of the final climactic battle at Winterfell, with life itself in the balance." I'd say that context is everything. This one has actually been around for a long time and has nothing to do with the forthcoming Winds of Winter. If read in conjuction with the 1993 synopsis it appears to follow directly on and to be based upon the synopsis for the third volume of what was then to be a trilogy. As such it has long since been overtaken by events, but it does, like the 1993 synopsis, give us an insight into how GRRM originally intended the story to go and so the question arising is that while the story as written has moved on in strange and mysterious ways; are the core elements still in place? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JNR Posted March 21, 2015 Share Posted March 21, 2015 Blurbs like the one discussed above are usually intended for the inside flap of the dust jacket, and aimed at potential buyers browsing in bookstores. They are written in the publisher's PR department, quite possibly by an intern who flipped through the book the day before. Bingo. In this case, someone intern-like who was working from source material so old it assumed Dany was already struggling with great lords and their hosts in Westeros, in the previous book, instead of epic diarrhea somewhere in the Dothraki Sea. But Daenerys Targaryen is learning what Robert Baratheon learned before her; that it is one thing to win a throne and quite another to sit on one. Hmmm. I'm pretty sure even Lollys or Moonboy could sit on one. Maybe instead: "it is one thing to win a throne, and quite another to rule from one." I do think the odds are fair that the blurb's contents will prove more or less accurate, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Urrax2 Posted March 21, 2015 Share Posted March 21, 2015 "Two desperate journeys beyond the known world in to the very hearts of ice and fire." Jon to the heart of winter? Tyrion to Valyria in search of his kinsman? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Urrax2 Posted March 21, 2015 Share Posted March 21, 2015 ... Hmmm. I'm pretty sure even Lollys or Moonboy could sit on one. Maybe instead: "it is one thing to win a throne, and quite another to rule from one."... We're talking about the OUCH Iron Throne OW here AIEE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted March 21, 2015 Author Share Posted March 21, 2015 "Two desperate journeys beyond the known world in to the very hearts of ice and fire." Jon to the heart of winter? Tyrion to Valyria in search of his kinsman? Its something I've suggested before. The business of Jon going north to look for his uncle comes up relatively early on in AGoT in what feels like a significant conversation with Tyrion. I don't recall at what point Tyrion's missing uncle was mentioned but there has to be a strong suspicion that the two are deliberately mirrored. While Jon declares his intention of going up there with Ghost, I have to wonder at Tyrion's companion. In many ways Jon and Danaerys are mirrored and I wonder whether its going to be Jon and Ghost going into the Ice while Danaerys and Tyrion head into the Fires. That would go flatly against what I still think was the synopsis for the third volume back when it was a trilogy, but it makes me wonder whether Aegon has been substituted for Danaerys in Westeros in order to free her up to go to Valyria. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JNR Posted March 21, 2015 Share Posted March 21, 2015 We're talking about the OUCH Iron Throne OW here AIEE. I remember thinking Sam would make an excellent king because his great wisdom, unmatched in three hundred years, would enable him to realize he could drop some cushions there. Maybe a little leather padding, even. "Two desperate journeys beyond the known world in to the very hearts of ice and fire." Jon to the heart of winter? Tyrion to Valyria in search of his kinsman? And what about the heart of darkness in conflict with itself -- the only thing worth writing about? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wolfmaid7 Posted March 21, 2015 Share Posted March 21, 2015 Check this out at 22.00 (Kit Karrignton) In response to the question "Who would you like to be?" .We are all hoping Kit to see this not just you. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TfvVluNxujc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Tyrion XX Posted March 22, 2015 Share Posted March 22, 2015 Its something I've suggested before. The business of Jon going north to look for his uncle comes up relatively early on in AGoT in what feels like a significant conversation with Tyrion. I don't recall at what point Tyrion's missing uncle was mentioned but there has to be a strong suspicion that the two are deliberately mirrored. While Jon declares his intention of going up there with Ghost, I have to wonder at Tyrion's companion. In many ways Jon and Danaerys are mirrored and I wonder whether its going to be Jon and Ghost going into the Ice while Danaerys and Tyrion head into the Fires. That would go flatly against what I still think was the synopsis for the third volume back when it was a trilogy, but it makes me wonder whether Aegon has been substituted for Danaerys in Westeros in order to free her up to go to Valyria. Makes sense given GRRM recently came closer than he ever has to putting the 7 book limit in stone. With everything else that needs to happen that's an awful lot of Dany material if she is going to Valryia for something significant and then gets to Westeros to do more than storm into the throne room for her execution before ADOS is over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mother of Dragons Posted March 22, 2015 Share Posted March 22, 2015 I wanted to come in and say I now understand why you post your long theories! I was developing an idea with all this talk of wights and thralls, that when I saw the patchface thread, I quickly wrote that maybe we have some thralls under the sea.I should've waited and added quotes and lined my signature! Less than 2 days later someone has an "idea" and starts a thread on "sea wights". I learned my lesson though, but I'll still think about it and post it here when it comes together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mother of Dragons Posted March 22, 2015 Share Posted March 22, 2015 Makes sense given GRRM recently came closer than he ever has to putting the 7 book limit in stone. With everything else that needs to happen that's an awful lot of Dany material if she is going to Valryia for something significant and then gets to Westeros to do more than storm into the throne room for her execution before ADOS is over.I tend to agree- didn't Martin say Dany would go to Westeros? I think she needs to with her dagons in order to let the Vale know who's boss. Wasn't that the way the dragon lords captured Vale the 1st time? The queen or princess rode a dragon up there?Also, not sure if Valyria still exists. I picture it as molten lava. Is there any SSM anectodes that validate or allude to the possibility of readers seeing Valyria? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mother of Dragons Posted March 22, 2015 Share Posted March 22, 2015 Check this out at 22.00 (Kit Karrignton) In response to the question "Who would you like to be?" .We are all hoping Kit to see this not just you. Thanks for the link- that was cute, and I enjoyed the whole interview. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Urrax2 Posted March 22, 2015 Share Posted March 22, 2015 Thanks for the link- that was cute, and I enjoyed the whole interview. :agree: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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