Lets be straight forward: What is Sansa's destiny?

[Mladen]

Sansa is less magical, but I don't think that means much at all. Bloodraven used his magic well enough in office. I forgot where being 'magic' was stated as a problem.

Which kinda proves the whole point that magic and politics are not separated in this series.

There is a section of the fanbase who support Sansa getting a throne and they work around that conclusion. For example by writing off Rickon and Bran.

By this day, I never understood the "Queen of everything under the Sun" ideas. I mean, I entertained that idea once and it was only due to the chess motif of pawns at the end of the board turning into Queen, but it is not working.

It is looking more and more as though the game of thrones will no longer be in play by the end of the series and the Iron Throne will no longer exist.

Men will always be men. If someone thinks that people will suddenly turn into ambition-less creatures, then they are deceiving themselves. Even after WFD, if humanity survives it, it will all go all over again...

This. I think Sansa's role is to end in a similar note to Elizabeth. She even has the whole "Bastardy" issue regarding her propositions, same as Elizabeth.

Especially having Thomas Seymour/LF parallels.

[Mladen]

They already have several such people:

1. Bran, who has actually acted as Lord of Winterfell

2. Jon, who's been learning the ins and outs of Northern politics

3. Arya, whose FM training has imparted her with qualities and experience that could serve her well in a leadership position

Sansa is way down the list.

This is basically BS argument... Bran is most likely staying in that tree, and in God's name what "qualities and experience" are Arya gained with FM that will serve her well in leadership position. Sansa actually has the position of Lady of the castle. Not much, but far more than being acolyte.

[Jane99]

So, you're equating the performance of one's legal obligation to enforce the death penalty against a confessed deserter with the manslaughter of a young boy?

Last time I looked, Robin was alive and kicking. Until he's not, your manslaughter charge is exaggeration at best. Besides, I've seen no convincing evidence that Sansa is willing to kill him. Littlefinger certainly is, but Robin's cousin? I don't think so. Nor do I think the two situations are that far removed.

A thought experiment, if you will. Robin Arryn is no longer Robin Arryn: he's Robin Stark, the only child of Ned and Catelyn, the heir to Winterfell. He also has shaking sickness. A deserter turns up; Ned has to execute him. Does he say "That's alright, Sweetrobin, you stay safe inside, I'll be back in a bit," thus proving to the Karstarks and Umbers and Boltons and all the rest that the heir to Winterfell is so frail that even witnessing his future duties is too much for him? Or does he say "Dose that child and get him on a pony. I'm sorry Catelyn, but he's got responsibilities."

I'm picking Ned takes door number 2, myself. I'm picking Sansa does too.

It may be risky and irresponsible and even morally dodgy of them, but it's not unreasonable, and nor is it un-Northern, best as I can tell.

[Newstar]

This is basically BS argument... Bran is most likely staying in that tree, and in God's name what "qualities and experience" are Arya gained with FM that will serve her well in leadership position. Sansa actually has the position of Lady of the castle. Not much, but far more than being acolyte.

Bran actually acted not only as "Lord of the castle," but also as Lord of Winterfell. You have no idea whether or not Bran is staying in that tree, so "most likely" is a weak argument. I have no idea whether Sansa's going to stick around the Vale, but I'm not going to state that Sansa is "most likely" staying in the Vale. If you assume that Bran, Arya and Sansa are doing similar "training" arcs, then Bran is no more going to stay in that tree than Arya will stay in Braavos.

As for Arya's experience shaping her for leadership, I would suggest you reread Varys' speech:

Aegon has been shaped for rule before he could walk. He has been trained in arms, as befits a knight to be, but that was not the end of his education. He reads and writes, he speaks several tongues, he has studied history and law and poetry. A septa has instructed him in the mysteries of the Faith since he was old enough to understand them. He has lived with fisherfolk, worked with his hands, swum in rivers and mended nets and learned to wash his own clothes at need. He can fish and cook and bind up a wound, he knows what it is like to be hungry, to be hunted, to be afraid. Tommen has been taught that kingship is his right. Aegon knows kingship is his duty, that a king must put his people first, and live and rule for them.

This is Arya. It is not Sansa.

My point isn't that Arya will be queen in the North (although that would be cool). It's that it's ridiculous to claim that Sansa is the only Stark fit for a leadership role at Winterfell, when Bran already had that role, when Jon spent the better part of ADWD wrangling with Northern politics (including schooling Stannis about it), and when Arya's direwolf is leading an enormous pack (symbolism!) and Arya appears to be acquiring those very same experiences and skills which would make her fit for leadership, according to Varys.

Honestly, it seems like some fans take Kween Sansa as their desired endgame and try to work backwards to find a plausible way for her to get to that point, ignoring everything in the books--Bran, Rickon, Robb's will, etc.--that makes it extremely unlikely. A little more reasoned argument and a little less wishful thinking is required here.

[Alayne's Shadow.]

They already have several such people:

1. Bran, who has actually acted as Lord of Winterfell

2. Jon, who's been learning the ins and outs of Northern politics

3. Arya, whose FM training has imparted her with qualities and experience that could serve her well in a leadership position

Sansa is way down the list.

1. Bran is not going out of that tree.

2. Jon has refused Winterfell on the grounds that it belongs to Sansa.

3. Arya's training has nothing to do with acting as a liege lord.

Sansa's the one that has the political journey. I mean, George R. R. Martin said so himself. Not that It wasn't obvious from the books. After all, Littlefinger tells Sansa she needs to learn the only game that matters: The Game of Thrones. Moreover, Sansa's the one that built Winterfell from the snow. And she's the maiden destined to kill a savage giant in a castle made of Ice, right?

Especially having Thomas Seymour/LF parallels.

Exactly. I've once entertained the idea that Sansa would end in a position akin to Elizabeth of York, but that ship has sailed the moment her marriage with Willas didn't happened. Alayne's last chapter even outright explicits Sansa's position about marriages.

[LongRider]

So, you're equating the performance of one's legal obligation to enforce the death penalty against a confessed deserter with the manslaughter of a young boy?

wrong post. sorry.

[LongRider]

Stronger than her and "father's" larger concerns?

Please!

Sansa's comment had to do SR meeting the Vale lords. She had not yet heard of LF's plan of HtH and how SR's demise fit into that. Keep in mind, she told LF she doesn't want to marry again, Randa Royce gave her the dirt on the dirtbag Harry, and SR is one of her few living kin. Why would she want to kill him? So she can marry a dirtbag so LF can make a grab for WF?

No.

[Mladen]

As for Arya's experience shaping her for leadership, I would suggest you reread Varys' speech:

And I would suggesting informing yourself about Aegon V. A lot of good has brought him being Varys' idea of perfect ruler.

Honestly, it seems like some fans take Kween Sansa as their desired endgame and try to work backwards to find a plausible way for her to get to that point, ignoring everything in the books--Bran, Rickon, Robb's will, etc.--that makes it extremely unlikely. A little more reasoned argument and a little less wishful thinking is required here.

That was never my argument. As for wishful thinking, I am totally agreeing with you... Less wishful thinking in the post I am quoted is indeed required.

[BloodWood]

Whatever happens, I just hope Sansa gets to see at least one of her siblings again, especially Arya. I'd like to see them meet again and get a little quality bonding time.

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

Bran actually acted not only as "Lord of the castle," but also as Lord of Winterfell. You have no idea whether or not Bran is staying in that tree, so "most likely" is a weak argument. I have no idea whether Sansa's going to stick around the Vale, but I'm not going to state that Sansa is "most likely" staying in the Vale. If you assume that Bran, Arya and Sansa are doing similar "training" arcs, then Bran is no more going to stay in that tree than Arya will stay in Braavos.

As for Arya's experience shaping her for leadership, I would suggest you reread Varys' speech:

This is Arya. It is not Sansa.

My point isn't that Arya will be queen in the North (although that would be cool). It's that it's ridiculous to claim that Sansa is the only Stark fit for a leadership role at Winterfell, when Bran already had that role, when Jon spent the better part of ADWD wrangling with Northern politics (including schooling Stannis about it), and when Arya's direwolf is leading an enormous pack (symbolism!) and Arya appears to be acquiring those very same experiences and skills which would make her fit for leadership, according to Varys.

Honestly, it seems like some fans take Kween Sansa as their desired endgame and try to work backwards to find a plausible way for her to get to that point, ignoring everything in the books--Bran, Rickon, Robb's will, etc.--that makes it extremely unlikely. A little more reasoned argument and a little less wishful thinking is required here.

That quote is so suspicious because the Aegon Tyrion meets doesn't seem to be those things and its in the same book Arya is living with Brusco and his daughters, a fish monger. He could written any sort of worker, it was fisherfolk. Why say 'living with fisherfolk' if you aren't drawing a comparison to the person who is living with fisherfolk earlier in the book?

Another great comparison is early in AGOT when Bran describes Ned as having a Lords face on, there was a difference between Ned and Lord Eddard. So interesting that he described it as a different face. Who you are and what leader you are don't necessarily have to be the same person, its a mummer's trick. I'm so interested in the role of faces in the story, the faces in the trees, the faces in the doors of the HOTB&W, the Faceless Men, the Faceless Trees in the Dreadfort and King's Landing. Also the similarities in skinchanging and the faceless men and of course how our villains came to like flaying.

Arya is such a dark horse power player even for fans. Fans think so little of her, that she will have one big kill, Varys maybe and be done. All those chapters and all she does is kill Varys? People make too much of the 'That's not me' line, Arya is rejecting a life where she isn't valued as anything but a baby oven, where her aspirations don't matter, where she can never become what she wants or have choices. She wants the freedom of her brothers, just like Jon does actually.

And I would suggesting informing yourself about Aegon V. A lot of good has brought him being Varys' idea of perfect ruler.

That was never my argument. As for wishful thinking, I am totally agreeing with you... Less wishful thinking in the post I am quoted is indeed required.

Aemon tells us what Egg's weakness was, he was too sweet. Too nice. Too boyish. I don't think we can accuse Arya of that. I think Arya knows you don't have to be the milk of human kindness to everyone. Had he made some examples, shown steel, he would have been defied less. His own children even defied him!

I sort of love that the cat is amongst the pigeons now. 12 months ago people were so confident about Sansa, its exciting. I can see a definite place for her in peacetime but I do wonder how she will affect the Others plot. Because everyone living at the end of Winds will be drawn to that, its the big climax.

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

slow forum-double post

[chrisdaw]

Runs off with the Hound and disappears forever or winds up a single mom raising a kid, possibly a bastard (Harry's/the Hound's/someone else's). Alternatively, survives the Hound and disappears forever, pulling a Rohanne Webber/Nettles.

I doubt the protector of man who turned his back on the world and spent it drowning his conscience in the drink having been spared by the gods and reborn in the mercy of the Faith is going to forsake the world and his knightly oath to run come the zombie apocalypse. She'll come calling but she'll have to go it alone.

[MistressofWhisperers]

Whatever happens, I just hope Sansa gets to see at least one of her siblings again, especially Arya. I'd like to see them meet again and get a little quality bonding time.

I agree. I am remaining eternally hopeful that all the (remaining) Stark children survive and are able to have a reunion, including even Bran. I know people think he'll stay in the tree like BR, but if, as someone suggested, GRRM is going to write magic out of the world, there is no reason Bran has to stay there or would want to, really. I can see Bran being lord in Winterfell or Rickon being the lord (with Sansa as regent). I don't see Sansa as lady in Winterfell or QITN, at least not unless her brothers pass before her. I also don't get speculation about her being lady in the Vale and/or Riverlands, there are way better claimants in both of those places, unless she marries for convenience, and I don't see her making the same mistake of her first marriage. I don't see her marrying HtH either. I am hoping Sansa marries for love like she always wanted.

And I would suggesting informing yourself about Aegon V. A lot of good has brought him being Varys' idea of perfect ruler.

That was never my argument. As for wishful thinking, I am totally agreeing with you... Less wishful thinking in the post I am quoted is indeed required.

LOL I think you guys actually agree, right? About Sansa not becoming a queen?

[kimim]

Rickon is no more traumatized than the rest of the Stark crew, and we have no notion of how "feral" he currently is.

It's his by right if Bran is out of the picture. "Risk" has nothing to do with it. "Choice" has nothing to do with it, either.

By the end of the series, he'll be close to Bran's age when Bran was left in charge of Winterfell.

Rickon's trauma happened before he was old enough to comprehend it, and his rage is reflected in his wolf. Rickon might change. However, I think the wolves say something basic about their owners, and Shaggydog's fuzzy, feral self says something about Rickon as a very angry child, who might grow into an angry human being.

LOL, if you pay close attention to Varys' praise of Aegon's experience as determining his fitness to rule, you'll see that it exactly fits Arya. Arya's skill set and experience acquired among her time with the FM--multiple languages, living with fisherfolk, working with her hands, knowing hunger, being hunted, etc.--make her fit to rule. So you're actually mistaken on that point. According to Varys, Arya is far more fit to rule than Sansa will ever be. Also, Arya has shown great leadership potential; it's very significant that it's her direwolf that is leading an enormous pack. Arya named her direwolf after a queen. Sansa named her direwolf "Lady," and Lady died.

Arya's experience is far from Aegon's, unless Aegon was forced to watch his father get beheaded, then forced to trek through the Riverlands, watching children and adults get tortured and murdered. Like Rickon, Arya has been utterly traumatized, to the point where her prayer is a list of people to murder. That works into her training, which is that of an assassin. She's my favorite Stark, and she might change, but as things stand, Arya would be the last Stark I'd want in charge of Winterfell.

Sansa might remain in the Vale, too. So if you're going to write off Bran as the Stark in Winterfell due to his current location, you should write off Sansa too.

I'm writing Bran off because he can't make babies. You're right, though. He could return.

Meanwhile, Jon is getting a crash course in actual leadership and Northern politics. Also, Arya's experience makes her far more fit for ruling than Sansa, to hear Varys tell it.

Jon is Snow, not Stark. This might change, of course.

1. Bran, who has actually acted as Lord of Winterfell

2. Jon, who's been learning the ins and outs of Northern politics

3. Arya, whose FM training has imparted her with qualities and experience that could serve her well in a leadership position

Sansa is way down the list.

Bran sat with his maester and Rodrik Cassel. He's hardly had great experience playing politics. Jon is not a Stark, but a Snow. Arya is an assassin. Sansa is not way down on that list; she's being trained by LF, who is to playing the game what a two-handed Jaime is to sword fighting.

[I swear by Ice and Fire]

She will come home.

[chrisdaw]

Sansa's not going North, one only needs to take a step back to realise this. It's a time for wolves and the North is the unwitting Jon's playground, the South and KL Sansa's. It was in KL that the Stark's were exposed, destroyed, made victims by the Game and players and as such where all the narrative potential lies for a player Stark triumph.

It's where the factions and people are vast, varied and playable, the largest most realised political network of intricacies that properly allows for an epic game and triumph. Where her cousin sits a Great House and her prior ruling uncle of another has been locked safely away while the current rulers, LF and Freys, are set for a fall. It's also set for massive upheaval and chaos come the Dance, the sort of conditions that allow for speedy upwards mobility should a player be good enough.

Sansa was created for this purpose, the question is will she lose herself, that is her Stark identity in the process of achieving it, that portion of her arc isn't nearly done, she hasn't shunned anything yet because she must first achieve and have something to sacrifice for the arc to be effective.

And South is where the characters signalled in Sansa's arc are or will be. Her safety has come to represent Jaime's honour, Brienne similarly. Cersei is her antagoniser. Tyrion her husband, set to emerge as a political dragon riding force and Sandor her love reborn.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

I think that Sansa's destiny could be to live and get some happiness. Someone has to, and Sansa's character seems likely enough to me.

Meanwhile, she will be LF's downfall but I can't imagine what else her arc will include. However, I don't see her ruling anything; what she's learning is how to exert influence behind the scenes and that's how she will operate, I expect.

(1) Rickon's trauma happened before he was old enough to comprehend it, and his rage is reflected in his wolf. Rickon might change. However, I think the wolves say something basic about their owners, and Shaggydog's fuzzy, feral self says something about Rickon as a very angry child, who might grow into an angry human being.

...

(2) Bran sat with his maester and Rodrik Cassel. He's hardly had great experience playing politics. Jon is not a Stark, but a Snow. Arya is an assassin. Sansa is not way down on that list; she's being trained by LF, who is to playing the game what a two-handed Jaime is to sword fighting.

(1) It's not my field by any means, but I have been told that young age is an advantage in regards to overcoming traumatic experiences. But in any case, what matters the most here is what Rickon is still alive and unless he dies he has the better claim, "suitability" notwithstanding. Either child (because Sansa is not 14 yet, let's not forget) would not rule on their own but only serve as figureheads instead. In the post narrative future a case about suitability could be made for all the surviving children but I don't think we'll get to see that far. Rickon's sole role is that of the spare heir, so it's that or die.

My personal preference for the eventual outcome (for the "far future", not as a direct solution for the time being) would be Bran to rule Winterfell with Rickon as his castellan and heir.

(2) Equating the game with ruling is wrong. The game is to ruling what lobbying is to designing and implementing policies. LF is teaching Sansa the first, not the second.

That does not mean that Sansa could not learn to do the second; perhaps she could, but not within the scope of the series. Jon and Dany have several chapters each struggling with the difficulties and the hardships of actual ruling, and having significant failures. Sansa's arc simply does not deal with this; it would be quite an asspull to produce a trained and ready-to-rule Sansa out of the blue. (Unless, of course, in Winds she's also thrown into some serious ruling and administration duties and given the chance to screw up and survive to learn from her mistakes. But wouldn't it be kind of a redundant repetitive storyline?)

[LongRider]

I think the building the snow WF is showing us she's going home and will help rebuild WF. Her and SR pulling the doll apart is them working together to defeat the enemies of the Vale and WF, be that LF most likely or others.

I'm not sold on the Tyrion being a dragon rider as he may want to be a dragon killer instead.

We'll see.

[MistressofWhisperers]

I kind of feel like KL would be the last place Sansa would go to willingly, as a result of all the trauma she faced there and she basically has no allies there. I can see Arya as more of the Stark to go south as she definitely has some unfinished business with some of the people of KL/Riverlands.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

I think the building the snow WF is showing us she's going home and will help rebuild WF. Her and SR pulling the doll apart is them working together to defeat the enemies of the Vale and WF, be that LF most likely or others.

I really don't get the cooperation with SR symbolism. On the contrary, it's Littlefinger who gave her useful help on how to build the snow castle and Sweetrobin who destroyed it. The slap does not help into infering a potential cooperation between the two from that scene.