Season 5 Impressions

[Johnsmith]

Kefln can I join this debate?

I have to disagree that an Unsullied is a human, when they are literally a Cyborg. Having parts removed, specifically designed for a purpose. By.romanticising their natures only shows certain degrees of ignorance. I am sure man has the ability to change in time. However when they still have a purpose, that behaviour was inadequate to their training, tarnishing, contradicting their very form.

The sceen showing an Unsullied in a brothel was in complete contradiction to all the information that we have had about them throughout this journey. Their very nature, pain tolerance, who they are, how they became.

Yes they are in a human form. Although when they have been so brainwashed, disciplined, into becoming without question what they are. Only shows a complete lack of understanding into the depth of their nature.

[desire]

They can't even get the names right for the characters let alone the story line...

[kefln]

They can't even get the names right for the characters let alone the story line...

:D

[kefln]

Kefln can I join this debate?

I have to disagree that an Unsullied is a human, when they are literally a Cyborg. Having parts removed, specifically designed for a purpose. By.romanticising their natures only shows certain degrees of ignorance. I am sure man has the ability to change in time. However when they still have a purpose, that behaviour was inadequate to their training, tarnishing, contradicting their very form.

The sceen showing an Unsullied in a brothel was in complete contradiction to all the information that we have had about them throughout this journey. Their very nature, pain tolerance, who they are, how they became.

Yes they are in a human form. Although when they have been so brainwashed, disciplined, into becoming without question what they are. Only shows a complete lack of understanding into the depth of their nature.

I think it's debatable.

As Unsullied they had one choice, obey or die. Surviving meant compartmentaising everything. Being told to go kill a baby from a master wasn't a suggestion, it was a command. Were they brainwashed? Of course. Is that sort of thing irreversible? Yes/No? The same can be said for slaves, such as Missandei. Their lives were not their own. They weren't people in the eyes of their masters.

Now people like Greyworm and Missandei are been given something that they never thought that they would ever have, a life, freedom.

Would the romance work? Are the Unsullied too far gone, like cyborgs as you put it? Will they suffer PTSD? Will this new "freedom" effect their ability to fight as an army? How could they function among normal people who know what it takes to become an Unsullied? You could write 7 more books on this alone.

But for the sake of the TV, not necessarily the books, simply having that human connection invests the viewers. In a very simple way it expands the story, it gives us insight into the world beyond the fights over Iron chairs and who is ruling who.

Its very easy to say that Dany is freeing the slaves and freed her Unsullied army. But without showing context, then effectively Missandei is still just standing around translating and the Unsullied are faceless soldiers waiting to kill on command. Now they are people, with their own lives. Its complicated. It might be completely futile. Yet its context to the story of Essos and the changes there.

And this being GOT it also means it will hurt more when they all get Red Wedding'ed. :D

[Johnsmith]

Let us discuss, thank you

Questionably an intelligent version or the comical one?

Have you experienced soldiering first hand those horrors of war, what makes a good soldier, comparing to that stockholm syndrome. Perhaps we can argue here that it was only a fledging Unsullied, one of the lesser trained, as of yet to be brainwashed. Although that arguement is entirely out of the question. The later words used on the show, were of larger percentages of Unsullied frequenting the brothels.

Did Daenerys disband her army, send them home, were they on holiday?.She made them an offer which was refused in the earlier episodes. Showing that they were only commited to one thing, having obtained a new master. Yes they may have choosen names, when they were formely only numbers, or meat, possibly motivating them to certain extent within her service.

Although understandably these Unsullied were still at war, however under a lesser job of keeping the peace. Would their training command allowed for such errant behaviour?

Slaves are not comparible to Unsullied. Unsullied who are vigourously trained, stripped of their dignity, multilated, brainwashed, disciplined, ruthlessly forced to mutilate, broken into only following command, only the strongest of them surviving. Presumably the only concept to them, would be that of survival. How does coddling even begin to fit into their descriptions? Slaves however may, or may, not have had a sense of luxury depending on their masters.

The sceen itself was in complete contradiction. Lets us further assume all whores are slaves, according, Kefln to your above synopsis. Although please tell me why did the Unsullied not choose love, instead of pretention, because that would have only lead to horror?

The comical version of mindless stupidty. Simply how does an Unsullied get it up?

When did Daenerys start paying her Unsullied? I must have missed that offered service.

[kefln]

I think its unfair to call an argument intelligent version v’s comical. In the book setting its easier to get into the details and motivations. You can spend chapters talking about the personal impulses behind a characters choices. But for a TV show its important to move the story along at pace. Often ignoring some basic realities.

Any story can be picked apart, for example what is the financial benefit in the Unsullied and such extreme training? Housing approximately 24,000 men at a time, for somewhere between 11 and 15 years each, with a 2/3 death rate. That’s a massive undertaking. Slaves can be forced to work for their food. The profit comes from what they produce. The Unsullied are effectively a massive drain on resources until they are sold, or they die.

And why would the masters agree to sell that number all at once? Surely the older ones were serving as defenders of the city? Once Dany marched off with her 8,000 the entire city of Astapor would be effectively defenceless. A Dothraki Khalasar would mince them. The city would have to pay an army for the next 10 years to defend its gates. Not to mention it would have to go out and find 24,000 more slaves to fill the ranks.

Selling a hundred at a time makes more sense from a financial standpoint, but the price would have to cover the housing/training of 300 men for over a decade, due to the mortality rate. Surely sellswords would be cheaper for a perspective buyer? A group like the Second Sons could be hired for a fraction of the price and they come with experienced generals.

You could argue that there is a prestige in having Unsullied in an army, or as house guards. But are 100 fearless, completely loyal, cyborg troops as usefull as 1,000 average troops? I’d imagine that its all down to what they are needed for.

The idea of the Unsullied is brilliantly terrifying. However in practice it seems too restrictive to be financially beneficial.

Getting back on point, there is a lot more detail in the books than in the show, yet its obvious that they aren’t normal men. Their extreme training has been mentioned. Their battle prowess is known. That having 8,000 Unsullied is enough to send fear rippling across the country.

As Daenerys left Astapor, before moving on to Yunkai, she declared all the slaves are to be free, including her Unsullied. Effectively they now serve her as free men. They chose their own leader, GreyWorm, who serves under her as part of her ruling council.

The fact that they did chose to follow her, that they did obey her and kill the masters, that they were able to chose a leader from their ranks, that GreyWorm had an opinion while planning the assault at Yunkai, shows that they are able to think for themselves. They are more than just robots waiting to be told when to move. This is an important point.

As for keeping the peace, the Unsullied were trained as guards, else they would be less than useless. There would be no value in training that many soldiers for battles only, because once the fight was over what would you do with them? Get them to stand in the corner and wait for death? The worlds most expensive coat rack. Again Sellswords would be cheaper, because they’d leave once the contract was completed.

Any story has to come with a little suspension of disbelief. The notion that these once ruthless killing machines would seek comfort in the arms of a woman, not in a sexual way, but just for the feeling of being held, is a fascinating development. Also it worth mentioning that Greyworm offered to cut out the tongue of the Titan's Bastard for the language he was using. An unfeeling robot wouldn’t find bad language offensive. Nor would one offer such action without some sort of social understanding. So we already know that the Unsullied aren’t just cyborgs.

All of this might not be a realistic, but it does add layers for the sake of the story.

And there was no mention of any of them “getting it up”. It’s just like the notion that the Greyworm and Missandei romance angle is pointless because they can’t have sex. There is more to being held than having sex, just like there is more to romance.

[Johnsmith]

I don't know what the financial arguement added up there. i am sorry for misunderstanding your comical logic Kefln?.

On a continent littered with bands of sellswords, Unsullied and Dothraki. Adopting slavery in every single city throughout that continent, rife with war supporting those numerous warring parties.

I would have thought any training, would have supported itself. The rest of the world has been buying that famous brand.

Your arguement about leadership, he was the best fighter, he admittedly didn't choose a name at first. Comicaly referencing? How does an Unsullied train, how does the survival of the fittest work in their training? Now that he is charge, it is parties and wages lads, go and do as you wish, mommy said so.

I have never passed any comments about Missandei here. Although we can assume Daenerys doesn't need another image, frequently found in those lesser establishments in this present season.

Romancing terminator doesn't fit into the titled description at all. Fanastic that the Sons of the Harpy have been born by a whore in their introduction.

Layers, make love not war, funny, that he really could not have.

[Johnsmith]

We can agree to disagree Kefln.

Programming is reminiscent of your typical BBC. Romaticising every era of history turning it into somekind of Jane Aire, Lady Chatterlys Lover, or that enunch in the closet.

The grim reality lead to hammy horror, impact somewhat lost through improbability, withIn contradiction to information given. Painting the wrong picture.

The Sons of the Harpy are the former lords, rulers, masters of Meereen. Not, Eyes Wide Shut. Why would they use what they have despised, and hate? Have their ladies resorted to punting now?

I don't know how you are assmuing that eight - ten thousand Unsullied would be turned into household guards? Because they are enunchs? When they were not needed they would have been slaughtered, supply and demand. I wouldn't have been at all surprised if they would have also removed their tongues, although communication is vital in war. We saw their training in several various forms of combat upon introduction. They are similar to phalanx. I wager spear, against light horse, they are favoured providing there is archery support.

The reason Greyworm protected insult, is because we are without the character of Strong Belwas.

Command is lost in brothels, they are no longer feared. Questionably where does any of their wages come from currently? They had offered previously to folow her without question refusing freedom.

[It Rhymes With Sneak]

They've made a lot of changes, some pretty out there, but imagine if we all had to sit through a straigh page to screen adaptation of some of the drivel from AFFC.

[boojam]

So ... in the preview video for S5E2 what the hell is the landscape behind the House of Black and White?

Doesn't seem to be in Braavos!

Supposed to be in a built up area in Braavos.

[Ghosts Lunch]

Kefln can I join this debate?

I have to disagree that an Unsullied is a human, when they are literally a Cyborg. Having parts removed, specifically designed for a purpose. By.romanticising their natures only shows certain degrees of ignorance. I am sure man has the ability to change in time. However when they still have a purpose, that behaviour was inadequate to their training, tarnishing, contradicting their very form.

The sceen showing an Unsullied in a brothel was in complete contradiction to all the information that we have had about them throughout this journey. Their very nature, pain tolerance, who they are, how they became.

Yes they are in a human form. Although when they have been so brainwashed, disciplined, into becoming without question what they are. Only shows a complete lack of understanding into the depth of their nature.

Well this actually does make sense thematically in terms of the notion "they aren't seen as people"

Obviously the guy is getting a motherly song, so is trying to get an experience back to when he was innocent and before he was taken and turned into an "Unsulled Cyborg" as you put it, eg re-discovering his humanity. This may be why they put a startled fear look on his face when his throat was cut, he wouldn't have reacted like that on a battlefield

So it matches up with Dany's de-slavement agenda which involves "humanising" a previous machine class

There was some great exploration of the realities of power in the books when it came to Slavers Bay. Rips out the idealism of "liberty and freedom on the march". I hope they explore these well, taking Yunkai and Cleon-led Astapor out of the equation is concerning, and I'd be further concerned if Sons of the Harpy are pigeon-holed as simplistic gold-masked "backward slaver" terrorists who hate Dany "simply" because she represents democracy liberty for the slave class. The shavepate seemed bent on a bloodbath just as much as any master...

Anyway, wait and see, they had that slave come in last year saying things were worse so I have hope

[Johnsmith]

Well this actually does make sense thematically in terms of the notion "they aren't seen as people"

Obviously the guy is getting a motherly song, so is trying to get an experience back to when he was innocent and before he was taken and turned into an "Unsulled Cyborg" as you put it, eg re-discovering his humanity. This may be why they put a startled fear look on his face when his throat was cut, he wouldn't have reacted like that on a battlefield

So it matches up with Dany's de-slavement agenda which involves "humanising" a previous machine class

There was some great exploration of the realities of power in the books when it came to Slavers Bay. Rips out the idealism of "liberty and freedom on the march". I hope they explore these well, taking Yunkai and Cleon-led Astapor out of the equation is concerning, and I'd be further concerned if Sons of the Harpy are pigeon-holed as simplistic gold-masked "backward slaver" terrorists who hate Dany "simply" because she represents democracy liberty for the slave class. The shavepate seemed bent on a bloodbath just as much as any master...

Anyway, wait and see, they had that slave come in last year saying things were worse so I have hope

Viva La resistance. Are those mask being sold, could I possibly buy one for my next Prague visit?

Danys mission isn't about disarming her army when considering she has a throne to win. Order to be restored. Underming her army the most feared in that part of the world. Pure cheese gold. Considering what they are, now found in brothels. They had a job to do, cannot be done with rabble.

No structured command except deviation from the sorce in weak attempts.

Everybody needs the love of a good lady killer in war. Quickly into the arms of a killer.

The Harpys are bastards, their ladies are whores, whom will sleep with slaves.

Whatever perceived nuances discovered upon a dead person bear no relevance in death. How would he look, well a damn sight better then Mance.

[Arya or no one?]

So ... in the preview video for S5E2 what the hell is the landscape behind the House of Black and White?

Doesn't seem to be in Braavos!

Supposed to be in a built up area in Braavos.

i was wondering the same thing when i saw the house of black and white! where have they moved it to?

[Ghosts Lunch]

Great episode, thematically rich and rather intelligent which is what I like

Eg The Dany scene with the beheading was set up to be exactly like Robb and Rickard Karstark bheading over killing the kid now playing Tommen Lannister while in custody. Drogon seems to be playing the role of Quaithe, which is about "remember who you are". Reinforces my belief Dany's arc is in the East and she will go Fire + Blood on everyones ass in WoW and season 6

Interesting they put the NW election right after the Alys Mormont letter. This was great because Stannis hasn't seen the irony of him having Jon read that and then go on about "if they don't fear you they won't follow you". Starks are effectively destroyed yet many northerners still are loyal to their name out of love + respect because they stood for honour and justice. No accident this leads on from Jon contemplating is relationship with Stark name in legitimate terms and then Aemon Targaryen is set up to give the deciding vote (Jon Stark-Targaryen Easter egg IMO).

Obviously they had Aemon fill the role of Mormonts Raven, which is being warged by Bloodraven (has Targ blood + an estranged LC of the NW)

There is an over-arching theme of how both the Starks and Targaryen relate to power which was explored through Dany and Jon. So different from the books but this was a great adaption

On top of that Ellaria dialogue with Doran was a twin to the Hounds conversation with Arya, eg "how many brothers and sisters do they have to kill" and "how many Sarks do you have to behead" and it delves into the theme of civility and vengeance in both cases.

Brienne is interesting, very first impression is it is odd and groanworthy Sansa would get found, but reading Alayne 1 I can make perfect sense of the adaption. Eg Podrick is Mad Mouse/Ser Shadrich, IMO in WoW this will lead to Brienne + Jaimie and perhaps some others taking Alayne out of the Vale somewhat against her will in a reverse dynamic of Florain the Fool song/Ser Dontos. In the books they will take her to Lady Stoneheart, she is learning off LF but LS is the finalisation of her development into Queen Sansa of Harrenhall. This is the tragedy of Briennes arc, she is super honourable but her mission about oaths and honour made in idealism basically leads to Mad Danelle Lothston MkII IMO

On the other side of the coin, Brienne will fill now follow LF north and fill the role of Umber in the show and be waiting for Theon + Sansa outside Winterfell late in the season (the winter shot in the trailers), they will meet up with Jaimie in the RL in season 6. Maybe Sansa and Theon get seperated and Theon gets captured by Stannis's army?

Not sure if LS will be in it, people are initially cynical about Sansa as LS (I was at least) but given I am now starting to see LS as a lead-in to Black Queen Sansa it makes sense, plus rescuing Myrcella on behalf of Cersei is a great counterpart to then rescuing Alayne/Sansa on behalf of Cat/LS. I hope LS is in it, IMO in the books her arc will finish when she has Castamered the Freys but they might have Sansa do it in the show to show how badass she has become. Hope it's LS though

For my part I can start to see how it makes sense and it is by and large starting to seem quite elegant, I am glad they are maintaining some depth to the show and exploring power and making it cryptic ala the books

Just some small issues to quibble over, eg perhaps Bowen Marsh could have been at the election. the election was rather fast but I understand why given the themes it was made to tap intoy.

[Ghosts Lunch]

Viva La resistance. Are those mask being sold, could I possibly buy one for my next Prague visit?

Danys mission isn't about disarming her army when considering she has a throne to win. Order to be restored. Underming her army the most feared in that part of the world. Pure cheese gold. Considering what they are, now found in brothels. They had a job to do, cannot be done with rabble.

No structured command except deviation from the sorce in weak attempts.

Everybody needs the love of a good lady killer in war. Quickly into the arms of a killer.

The Harpys are bastards, their ladies are whores, whom will sleep with slaves.

Whatever perceived nuances discovered upon a dead person bear no relevance in death. How would he look, well a damn sight better then Mance.

Yeah I like the masks

What I was talking about is that basically in Slavers Bay rather than "Freedom" etc what really happened is that the old Slaver class became slaves in Astapor and the old Slaves became the Masters under Cleon the Butcher King, they then went to war against the old guard Masters in Yunkai. This is in Mereen also where the Shavepate who leads the Brazen Beasts wants a bloodbath.

So it is basically a case of two demographics going to war. Possibly three, the Green Grace was an excellent foil for the rise of High Sparrow in Kings Landing and was a good way to explore how organised religion has had a major role in power politics historically but Green Grace seems to have been written out

Far from freedom, what Dany did in Slavers Bay through her 'idealism' was really sow chaos and destruction and it harks to the fact that GRRM is quite excellent at stripping all romance out of war or power projection

I had been worried about certain cliched narratives of history which are rife throughout television beginning to rear their heads

But after seeing the second episode though I am a lot more relaxed, there are changes but it's quite intelligent and they make sense thematically

As for Harpy's being bastards, they are a demographic of society trying to maintain power. The tearing down of the Harpy statue which Dany had earlier put the Targaryen emblem of Valyrian origin on is important here, the whore shows there is lower class support so it is possibly pointing to the fact there is a Ghiscari "nationalism" angle for lack of a better word and not just a Masters/Slave class warfare. Mereen is a complex society

[+cassius]

Looking like the best season yet

[Johnsmith]

Yeah I like the masks

What I was talking about is that basically in Slavers Bay rather than "Freedom" etc what really happened is that the old Slaver class became slaves in Astapor and the old Slaves became the Masters under Cleon the Butcher King, they then went to war against the old guard Masters in Yunkai. This is in Mereen also where the Shavepate who leads the Brazen Beasts wants a bloodbath.

So it is basically a case of two demographics going to war. Possibly three, the Green Grace was an excellent foil for the rise of High Sparrow in Kings Landing and was a good way to explore how organised religion has had a major role in power politics historically but Green Grace seems to have been written out

Far from freedom, what Dany did in Slavers Bay through her 'idealism' was really sow chaos and destruction and it harks to the fact that GRRM is quite excellent at stripping all romance out of war or power projection

I had been worried about certain cliched narratives of history which are rife throughout television beginning to rear their heads

But after seeing the second episode though I am a lot more relaxed, there are changes but it's quite intelligent and they make sense thematically

As for Harpy's being bastards, they are a demographic of society trying to maintain power. The tearing down of the Harpy statue which Dany had earlier put the Targaryen emblem of Valyrian origin on is important here, the whore shows there is lower class support so it is possibly pointing to the fact there is a Ghiscari "nationalism" angle for lack of a better word and not just a Masters/Slave class warfare. Mereen is a complex society

Mask are masks those seen in brothel spring to mind. Not of any Brazen beast, Harpy?

I fail too understand much of that psycho babble, I do apologise for seeking clarity?

I don't recall GRRM ever stripping romance out of any power projections. This must be open to interpretation upon any kind romatification? I assume her latter choices have been considered. Litterally?

An ancient society would be seen as similar to our ancient world, caste systems are possibly within certain consideration.

Her utopia wrought was still within a sense of order. Her army as you have given example of, had structure and command combating any arisen insurgent terrosim. I do not recall her Unsullied soliders visiting brothels? She also commanded a city guard through her liberated slaves. As well as her structured Unsullied, Brazen Beasts. Placing those she thought were responsible, under certain house arrest, and taking others as hostages. Sadly this did not stop the violence where she was seated, choosing to rule from. instead of easily walking away from. So instead she began seeking alternatives, compromises, choosing not to ruthlessly butcher entire portions of her city.

I am curious how can you say, you like where this show immediately lead? I gather from a theatrical point of view into episode 2. Yes it certainly may lead onto courses of events, be that as they may within an absurd amount of amateur flaw. Also considering the execution.

The sparrows openly revolt when armies have deviated from the capital, as they set to combat the remnants of Stannis revolt. Recalling a mounted head of the last high septon although I may be wrong?

[SerJeremiahLouistark]

What's strange to me is that with everything happening so fast, I would think that the show would be caught up with the books by the end of this season. No Stoneheart, no Manderlays, it seems that The Greyjoy storyline has been abandoned, we get a complete rewrite sending Jamie to Dorne, and the other 2 POV characters who get a complete rewrite in episode 3 and 4.

Why the rewrites? I mean what's the point of adding Beric and Thoros in season 2 if you plan on deleting Stoneheart? What's the point of all the Greyjoy stuff in season 1 and having Asha in season 3 if you're gonna delete their storyline, Kingsmoot Crow's Eye and Victorian.

I guess I just really don't agree with what's edited and what's not. Personal opinion.

[roxWolfox]

Thoros: revives the dead through power of the Red God.

Beric: some people who die are revived.

Stoneheart: revenge. Is just one of many who want revenge.

Kingsmoot: murderous, duplicitous villain becomes leader of barbarians. Same thing is happening in the North.

[Ghosts Lunch]

What's strange to me is that with everything happening so fast, I would think that the show would be caught up with the books by the end of this season. No Stoneheart, no Manderlays, it seems that The Greyjoy storyline has been abandoned, we get a complete rewrite sending Jamie to Dorne, and the other 2 POV characters who get a complete rewrite in episode 3 and 4.

Why the rewrites? I mean what's the point of adding Beric and Thoros in season 2 if you plan on deleting Stoneheart? What's the point of all the Greyjoy stuff in season 1 and having Asha in season 3 if you're gonna delete their storyline, Kingsmoot Crow's Eye and Victorian.

I guess I just really don't agree with what's edited and what's not. Personal opinion.

As to the first, maybe they were thinking about it, but ultimately I think it is a case of Beric -> LS -> Sansa in the RL so they may have just decided to skip the other two and have Sansa do LS stuff

Greyjoys may simply be about giving context to Theon now, and their extra stuff simply put by the wayside, I have some hope for Euron because he seems to be a major antagonist to Dany but we'll see

It does seem a tad jumbled, eg why mention Tysha in S1 if they are just going to do away with her