Season 5 Impressions

[Jack Bauer 24]

Rex999,

Each of the Sand Snakes in the novel has a distinctly different demeanor -- one is a warrior, one is a femme fatale, one is a poisoner, and they each approach problems differently. They also don't wear uniforms.

The Sand Snakes in the first four episodes get, with one exception, a line or two and that's it. And, more importantly, they are followers: they do someone else's bidding, they are someone's cronies/minions, rather than each of them being presented as pro-active persons, persons who have a desire and who each has a distinctly different way of achieving that desire.

That's distinctly different, and it takes characters we've barely met but at least have a sense of in the novels into (almost) completely faceless characters who seem to be there to be Fox Force Five.

Yikes, that bad?

[kimim]

Rex999,

Each of the Sand Snakes in the novel has a distinctly different demeanor -- one is a warrior, one is a femme fatale, one is a poisoner, and they each approach problems differently. They also don't wear uniforms.

The Sand Snakes in the first four episodes get, with one exception, a line or two and that's it. And, more importantly, they are followers: they do someone else's bidding, they are someone's cronies/minions, rather than each of them being presented as pro-active persons, persons who have a desire and who each has a distinctly different way of achieving that desire.

That's distinctly different, and it takes characters we've barely met but at least have a sense of in the novels into (almost) completely faceless characters who seem to be there to be Fox Force Five.

I didn't like the triplet look, either. The costumes are too similar, the actresses are made up to look similar, as well, at least in the stills. I'd love to have seen the costumer's version of female Dornish clothes. As they are, the Sand Snakes resemble Dothraki extras.

Having said that, I'm not sure how distinct the Sand Snakes of the novel truly are. The differences are on the surface: They look different, and they specialize in different methods of killing. Beneath that, however, all three are equally Oberyn's daughters. They all want revenge, sooner than later. They all pose a danger to their uncle's plans, which is why all three are imprisoned. They all refuse to drink the toast their uncle offers, and they are equally hostile, until their uncle tells them his plan. Then all three, suddenly and imo unexpectedly, fall in line.

Their purpose in the novel from that moment on is to bury their need for immediate vengeance, and carry out Doran's strategy--ie., they become Doran's followers. They can be proactive, but only in order to play the uncle's game. Of course, Doran is cursed with family members who tend to piss on rules--Oberyn, Quentyn. The Sand Snakes will probably go too far, too, but who can really tell at this point.

[Ser Creighton]

Rex999,

Each of the Sand Snakes in the novel has a distinctly different demeanor -- one is a warrior, one is a femme fatale, one is a poisoner, and they each approach problems differently. They also don't wear uniforms.

The Sand Snakes in the first four episodes get, with one exception, a line or two and that's it. And, more importantly, they are followers: they do someone else's bidding, they are someone's cronies/minions, rather than each of them being presented as pro-active persons, persons who have a desire and who each has a distinctly different way of achieving that desire.

That's distinctly different, and it takes characters we've barely met but at least have a sense of in the novels into (almost) completely faceless characters who seem to be there to be Fox Force Five.

Mmmmm Fox force five. You know even with Fox Force five Pulp Fiction is an amazing movie. Of course it is early and I don't know if their story will improve for you, but I am curious about why they are on the show. I am sure they probably have sme act to perform on the show that is relivant, and we do get to know they better in the books, but other than a cool name, I mean even in the books they do have a team name. But outside of getting to know them better in the books, how important are they to the overall story? I mean in the books does the fate of such and such hinge on the Sand snakes or Darkstar? Or are they in the books to basically do something and then thier story is pretty much over. How well do we need to know them? Like if I need strong female leads, there really is no shortage in the books or on the show, Dany, Brie, Ashar, Arya, Arianna, Sansa (Depending on where her story goes), Mel (She is a bit over focused or maybe misguided but she is no Joke), Little Shireen (Strong little girl), Cat. So I guess I am just not sure how important the Sand snakes are even in the books, or how much the show needs to flesh them out given all the other stories, plots and sub plots.

Not to say anyones opinion on the Sand Snakes is invalid, just for me I never felt they were this new central story is all. I would rather have Arianna, but I just suspect that they have a task to perform at some point. I know it's a plot device, but I really don't have anything to say that can change that. I guess sometimes you need plot devices. Of course they could of just hired one actress, named her Arianna and given her a whip. Oh man Arianna with a whip, that's like poster worthy.

[Ran]

I'm fairly certain we've seen from trailers what their primary role is:

They will intercept and capture Jaime and possibly Bronn (with Areo Hotah's help, apparently)

[Konradsmith]

^That's not quite it.

It's more that they fight Jaime and Bronn and then Areo intervenes and has all of them arrested, the Snakes included.

http://watchersonthewall.com/game-thrones-filming-leaks-confirm-jaimes-season-5-storyline/

[Ser Creighton]

I'm fairly certain we've seen from trailers what their primary role is:

They will intercept and capture Jaime and possibly Bronn (with Areo Hotah's help, apparently)

Oh that is kind of blah... I know maybe they go to KL and take it over. Three heads has the Sand Snake, one to bed, one to dread and one to love. Mother of snakes, daughter of snakes bride of snakes. Probably not. Well at least I don't have to hear anyone say double daggers again, yes I get it you have two daggers.

[PatrickStormborn]

It might also be a nice opportunity for the show to portray Sansa as a successful manipulator as opposed to Cersei and Dany who are messing up their own situations royally (heh, puns).

This....... might possibly be the worst thing I've read. Congrats.

Sansa will surely be seen as a "successful manipulator" if she manages to get slightly less abuse from Ramsay than he'd normally give, right?? I hate to break it to you but that's literally what she was doing in King's Landing.

And you want to compare this to Dany and Cersei... why? They're trying to rule, not avoid abuse... It would be absolutely ridiculous to draw comparisons between the characters. (A better comparison for Sansa would be Theon; a better comparison for Cersei and Dany would be - surprise surprise - each other.)

[1234567]

Any hints as to Edmure or the Blackfish this season?

[Jack Bauer 24]

.

[Beric175]

@PartickStormborn: All 3 female characters are in very compromised positions because Sans will be around the Boltons where she won't be allowed a false step, whereas Cersei and Dany will have their own problems to deal with so that's where the comparison comes in but Dany and Cersei notoriously mess up things really badly whereas we do not know what Sansa's story is in TWOW so what will you do if her plot in book 6 resembles what they are doing on the show with the Boltons but instead of the Boltons it's Harry the Heir who's an asshole? Since Sansa has spent a lot of time around psychos (LF, Joffrey, Cersei, Lysa, Sweetrobin, etc.) she has the experience to deal with a guy like Ramsay so I'll be optimistic and if she's just there to replace fArya then it's condensing the meandering book plot so I'm not that upset about it. Sansa's lot in life so far has been to be around criminally insane people who abuse her but until now she has not been able to change her situation herself and on the show she will most likely be doing exactly that. So how would this be a step backwards again? I think it's the change in her attitude that will make the difference. None of the shots we've seen of Sansa in season 5 promo material indicate fear or distress so she's clearly in control to some extent and that's a good thing.

If you could lend me your copy of TWOW to show me where Sansa's story goes I'd be happy to have a look at it. I fear that until the book is published you'll just going to have to bite the bullet and more importantly, watch how the thing plays out on the show before you judge it.

By the way, I think Linda defending Robert sexually abusing Cersei is much worse than my speculations about the sansa plot tbh so your initial claim seems erroneous to say the least :). I would rather not have Sansa be abused by the Boltons but if her TWOW material turns out to include just something s bad then the problem lies with the material. But again, we do not know where the books are headed here so I'll just be positive about this development on the show and see where it goes. I think it might mainly be to condense the plot and structure the season around a couple of hotspots like Winterfell, KL and Essos, instead of having all the characters spread out even more.

The show needs to get to the endgame, the books have no such obligation because there is no limit to the written text. The changes made on the show are likely because the characters need to converge and having sansa as a potential fArya/Manderly/LSH/Dustin stand-in is a good idea in my opinion but I agree that the execution has to be excellent but then again I enjoyed last year's inventions (the Bran stuff and the Brienne vs Hound fight were refreshing in that I did not know where the story'd go and I think it's good to see the same thing happen here).

[AllOfTheHours]

What if that person is Sansa? :ack:

I think he is talking about the wedding night. I seriously hope they don't have anyone having sex with dogs.

Where does he do that in ADwD, btw? I remember it being said, but don't know the passage.

I try to get hyped for the alternate universe Winterfell plot, but I just can't. For this reason. If Ramsey does something so heinous to Sansa, how will the show deal with her trauma? How will the show make it more "meaningful" than just violent soft-core porn? For Sansa to suffer abuse at the hands of Ramsey makes her and LF look like incompetent, bumbling idiots.

But I actually want to like it...ugh! On paper having Sansa know Ramsey, confront Reek (and possibly learn about Bran/Rickon), and get some Stark vengeance actually sounds brilliant and awesome. But, if her show story follows book FArya too much... it leads us down a path of plot stagnancy, violence, and wasted time (why set up, justify and execute a plot that doesn't happen/matter in the books, when we could be seeing Arianne? The Shy Maid? Or just a greater focus on other characters in the show?)

Personally, if there is an abuse scene (which seems super likely). I suspect it might happen to Myranda (give her a reason for being in the story). Myranda will try to kill Sansa out of jealousy/crazy. Roose will see his chance at being legitimately Lord of Winterfell and securing the North through marriage fading away. So Ramsey will "prove" himself by killing Myranda. It would be an ironic parody of Ramsey and Myranda hunting down the other girl together (and make sense of why they made up that scene too). :dunno:

Oh that is kind of blah... I know maybe they go to KL and take it over. Three heads has the Sand Snake, one to bed, one to dread and one to love. Mother of snakes, daughter of snakes bride of snakes. Probably not. Well at least I don't have to hear anyone say double daggers again, yes I get it you have two daggers.

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: Perfection.

[Hath4]

Apprently Alfie Allen has said in an interview that halfway through the season Theon bears witness to something really awful and that people won't be happy about it...also Iwan Rheon has said that this year we'll get to see Ramsay do the worst thing the character has EVER done....you guys, are they gonna have Ramsay force someone having sex with one of his dogs? It's a thing he does in the books and I think it's in Ramsay's character from the books but I was happy enough to see the toned down version of Ramsay on the show....I'm not sure I'm ready for bookRamsay to rear his ugly head on the show.

link?

[Jasta11]

The thing that gets me is that he is criticizing the show for making the sands snakes exactly like they are in the books

He can try to pretend that they were deeper characters in the books as much as he wants but they were still the same B-movie bad girls who he is now criticizing in the TV show

What he also forgot to mention was that the sands snakes were barley in the first 4 episodes of seasons 5

They were in quick introduction scene and they barley even spoke during it lol

Yes, that is a criticism that stood out to me. I can understand being upset that Ellaria replaces Arianne, but ''B-movie bad girls'' is exactly how I would describe the Sand Snakes in the books. But then again, I really didn't like the Dorne story arc in the books so if you ask me, they can't really make it worse and I don't really have a horse in this race.

Also, @ the people who saw the first episodes, how would you say Tyrion and Dany's stories are looking like so far? In vague terms of course, but does it feel like cutting content in their arcs could be promising or too much is left out?

[Ser Duncan The Average]

link?

Ha ha ha ha, oh shit.

It took me way too long to realize that you were asking for a link to the interview, not for a link to somebody having sex with a dog.

[Ghosts Lunch]

Reckon the Sand Snakes will come into it more in the second half once

Jaimie and Bronn land in Dorne, then we'll probably see some diversity and dialogue

Sounds like they are there to be backup to Ellaria and are reinforcing her as a revenge "faction" as an offset to the Doran moderate "faction" backed up by Hotah

Hotah and the Sand Snakes are probably extensions of Doran and Ellaria's perspective and willpower and perhaps not overly deep, they are probably mostly there to "look the part"

In a visual medium this makes some sense, and the show runners are probably rightly investing most of the narrative in the acting skills of Alexander Siddig as Doran and Indira Varma as Ellaria

It's probably similar to how they are bypassing Astapor and Yunkai, book Harpy's and Brazen Beasts and streamlining the "former slaves versus former Masters" class conflict into a straight out Unsullied versus "Brazen Sons of the Harpy" insurgency.

As long as they capture the essence of the false liberation of Slavers Bay and the false narrative of "liberation sand freedom on the march" and like everywhere else (eg Renly and Loras's "Knights of Summer" and Sansa's songs versus reality) they honour GRRM's great knack for brutally ripping out any semblance of romance from warfare and power plays

The tearing down of the Harpy statue seems to be a nod to the tearing down of Saddams statue so hopefully this is a good sign. People are slagging off Emilia's acting but the "badly acted" "I will rule" and "break the wheel" speeches may be that way for a reason,

eg like the books she is trying to fit into Viserys dream and narrative of the Targs which is not her truth. As I've said often she will throw it out the window, go Fire and Blood on everyone's ass and stay East to resurrect/revive Valyria but I digress

As for Sansa,

It would be a grave mistake if they basically allow Ramsay to be Joffrey mkII, as this would be like Jaimie in S4 all over again but in relation to Sansa I actually reckon they'll use Myranda as a JP stand-in for the show. Or rather they should in order to honour that aspect of the Theon/Reek narrative

Have to remember this is combining Sansa POV for the Vale and Reek POV for Winterfell, so they can't fundamentally violate the narrative of the Vale which is basically about Sansa re-ascension in the Alayne persona.

Obviously it wouldn't make sense either because Vale Lords wouldn't allow up jumped LF to arrange a match for Sansa stark of Winterfell to someone like Ramsay. Only way it works is if there is a sizeable force to protect her as a hedge against Ramsays perversions

Mind you this is the show which messed up the Sept scene portrayal and perceivably drove back Jaimie's arc and had the Captain of the Bloody Gate to inexplicably simply allow Arya Stark to walk off after revealing herself so even though I "got" the Sept scene when I saw it's White Tower twin in S4E10 the show makes thematic mistakes at times

[Lord Damian]

So, I guess, Sansa is going to play "Arya-Jeyne" and be married and rape/bedded after a warmup by theon to Ramsay. IF they pull this crap, I will throw up.

[Beric175]

They have done this kind of stuff well before: Theon season 2 had a lot of differences from the book but kept the essence of that storyline and they have generaly nailed Theon throughout the show so why wouldn't they with Sansa or the Dorne plot? Both seem to have stand-ins for other characters in order to condense the plot and scope and to keep the show's pace going.

I simply don't think that AFFC and ADWD lend themselves to a 1:1 adaptation, even if other people were involved noone would keep every single new POV in place or keep all of the events exactly like they were on the page because ADWD and AFFC are slooooooooow, which is death on tv because the audience loses interest unless you show them something exciting once in a while and AFFC and ADWD don't have a lot of those moments despite how interesting Elio and Linda might think they rethematically and how everyone would love to see it on screen exactly as it was on the page (a big assumption by the way).

I don't think people would like to see it on screen as it was in these 2 books because not only is the story progression sacrificed on a pyre for worldbuilding, a lot of the worldbuilding (especially in Dany's plot in Meereen) is unengaging because it involves names and concepts that people won't easily get into or keep being interested in, simply because 80% of the people involved are people we might not care about and the book does not give us enough complexity in those characters to care about them and all of that just to tell us something that was not that special to begin with. This has been a problem that my brother recgnized when I told him about the series: there re so many characers in there to give the appearance of complexity but the characters themselves barely get any development BECAUSE of the huge size of the enterprise and reading through books 4 and 5 that's exactly how I felt. It felt like the POV characters were being shoved around the place oftentimes at random (see Brienne) whilst not giving the supporting characters the space they needed and so when the show decides to change and condense things I think it might be for the best.

@Hath4: It was in an interview between Alfie Allen and Terry Schwartz and she mentions and cites the interview with Alfie Allen that she seemingly has yet to publish in this podcast and she discusses the story elements that might be involved here from around minute 27 until 30:

http://postshowrecaps.com/tv-show/game-of-thrones-book-club-terri-goes-to-westeros/

@Lord Damian: I think that would be the intended reaction they would want to achieve with that scene.

[Mingolla]

So, I guess, Sansa is going to play "Arya-Jeyne" and be married and rape/bedded after a warmup by theon to Ramsay. IF they pull this crap, I will throw up.

Why it is ok if that happen to Jeyne in the books and so wrong if that happen to Sansa in the show? Such hypocrisy. There is always such double-standard to what is allowed to happen to main and minor characters. I am little sceptical how Ramsey/Sansa marriage will have a sense for all involved, but sexual violence part of it happen in the books and it is integral part of the story. I dont think it will happen to Sansa though, but i suspect she will witness something really ugly. (maybe Myranda will try to kill her and Ramsey will punish her for it, which could be quite unpleasant for Sansa to be part of it).

Regarding Sand Snakes, from the interview of actresses it sound that they will be pretty much like in the books. It is just unfortunate that D+D decided to introduce them through the fight scene instead of their interaction with Doran like in the books. That would flesh out their personalities instantly. But people who criticize them are mostly those who disliked them in the books so this criticism of them is largery irrelevant. Judging them for one short scene is bit desperate. You can go back to previous seasons and tell me which character was briliantly introduced during one scene. I remember only Team Dragonstone and even that was subjected here to some overblown critique for every minor deviation. If Tyrion had only the scene with prostitutes in the pilot, would it mean Tyrion is awful character or would it mean it was a poor choice of introduction? I think the answer is obvious.

[Ran]

That would flesh out their personalities instantly.

Indeed. That's the major issue for me, the fact that they're minions acting as muscle for a third party when we meet them.

[Beric175]

I can wait and besides the fact that those leaks might probably have been dealt with at this point by HBO I don't want to support piracy.