Season 5 Impressions

[desire]

I just find it a bit slack that some people have been posting everyday on this site,devoted hours of hours effort making theories waiting for the next book release every 34 years its sort of a kick in the teeth for those few who have only to sort of have it ruined by this shambles of a show. I'm not a fan and most of it is just shock gore and sex scenes and i swear they could do the whole series with just a go pro camera up Dannys nose.

[El Guapo]

Of course that Cersei in the book is evil and paranoid and bitch but she's not just that and she has depth. On the show she doesn't as evidenced by the reaction of show watchers you described. And about Bronn that is what Im talking about, do we really need to see how is Jaime recruiting Bronn if the show is desperate for time as D&D often say? Wouldn't that time be more needed for Cersei and Kevan like Cas Stark suggested for example? Of course it would because in that case Cersei probably wouldn't be so shallow as she in the show.

is it needed? Not necessarily but if we didn't have that scene and they showed Bronn on the road to Dorne we would get complaints that D&D were leaving yet another plothole as Bronn was supposed to be marrying Lolly's. As far as Kevan and Cersei go I don't know what more you want to see. That scene established that Cersei is trying to take power for herself by packing the small council full of yes men and Kevan wanted no part of it.

[PatrickStormborn]

is it needed? Not necessarily but if we didn't have that scene and they showed Bronn on the road to Dorne we would get complaints that D&D were leaving yet another plothole as Bronn was supposed to be marrying Lolly's. As far as Kevan and Cersei go I don't know what more you want to see. That scene established that Cersei is trying to take power for herself by packing the small council full of yes men and Kevan wanted no part of it.

"You can marry Lollys when you return" would have covered that "plot hole" in literally about 3 seconds.

The point is that they could have used that screentime to build up more tension between Kevan and Cersei. Or, really, they could have used that screentime to accomplish ANYTHING. It took filler to a whole new level.

And the thing is... D&D don't care. They literally do not care. They achieved what they wanted to achieve, and that's all that matters to them. But some of us do care.

[Cas Stark]

"You can marry Lollys when you return" would have covered that "plot hole" in literally about 3 seconds.

The point is that they could have used that screentime to build up more tension between Kevan and Cersei. Or, really, they could have used that screentime to accomplish ANYTHING. It took filler to a whole new level.

And the thing is... D&D don't care. They literally do not care. They achieved what they wanted to achieve, and that's all that matters to them. But some of us do care.

Someone suggested they might have Lollys go to KL and Cersei gives her to Qyburn, in which case her casting would make some sense and she would be a plot point in Cersei's further downfall. If she literally is only appearing in that one scene, then, despite how nice and sweet it was, it was a complete and utter waste of time and total filler, to simply beef up Bronn's sympathy level before they kill him off. Lame.

[StepStark]

is it needed? Not necessarily but if we didn't have that scene and they showed Bronn on the road to Dorne we would get complaints that D&D were leaving yet another plothole as Bronn was supposed to be marrying Lolly's. As far as Kevan and Cersei go I don't know what more you want to see. That scene established that Cersei is trying to take power for herself by packing the small council full of yes men and Kevan wanted no part of it.

And please don't forget that all this is caused by the nonsense of a decision D&D made to send Jaime to Dorne. Their decision created the problem with Bronn's marriage which then they "solved" by wasting the time they keep saying they don't have. At the end of the day of course they don't have enough time to go into details with every character which is why smart creators would choose on what characters to focus their story. Or even better they could focus their story on those characters that are already in focus in the source material they are adapting.

[El Guapo]

And please don't forget that all this is caused by the nonsense of a decision D&D made to send Jaime to Dorne. Their decision created the problem with Bronn's marriage which then they "solved" by wasting the time they keep saying they don't have. At the end of the day of course they don't have enough time to go into details with every character which is why smart creators would choose on what characters to focus their story. Or even better they could focus their story on those characters that are already in focus in the source material they are adapting.

I am sorry but what exactly is the "problem" of Bronn's marriage?

[StepStark]

I am sorry but what exactly is the "problem" of Bronn's marriage?

There is no problem if Bronn isn't going to Dorne but because he is going now they have the problem that you talked about. Im talking about what you said that they couldn't just show Bronn traveling with Jaime because that would be seen as the plot hole because of Bronn's marriage.

[roxWolfox]

The interest in season 5 is flagging from what I've read, and it has nothing to do with Jaime going to Dorne in place of Oakheart, or the missing Arianne.

It's the storyline itself. For those who hold worldbuilding and extraneous political wrangling more important than a focus on already established plotlines, that's fine. That doesn't translate well in the visual medium, though. Though the two books (Feast and Dance) had moments of brilliance, it mostly felt that the writer was struggling to move forward in the song itself. In his attempt to show the aftermath of war we have Feast now a trilogy in itself, and still in a work in progress. The show cannot spend anymore time than it has to on Feast/Dance. The complaints the book recieved is now being heard from show-only fans. The great threat to mankind/Westeros has been sidelined in favour of a very long Chess match.

By sending Jaime (the most visually appealing man in Westeros) and Bronn (the rootin' tootin' stabbity-happy comic sidekick) to Dorne, they are eliminating Oakheart (not so appealing, and with no charisma whatsoever) and creating a sense of urgency to Myrcella's story.

I'm one who won't miss Arriane (sp?). Breasts, sex and entitlement issues. That's all she was, imo. I get that a lot of Westeros.org members adore Arriane. There are just over 100,000 members on this site, yet that number is a small drop in the book reader bucket. And even smaller when compared to the show-only fans.

tl;dr version:

The storyline of Dorne needs to be interesting...Jaime and Bronn are interesting. With them in Dorne, those getting bored with the 'neverending' feel of the story will continue to watch, hopefully.

[A Wolf Among Sheep]

There is no problem if Bronn isn't going to Dorne but because he is going now they have the problem that you talked about. Im talking about what you said that they couldn't just show Bronn traveling with Jaime because that would be seen as the plot hole because of Bronn's marriage.

But then they would have to cut Bronn out of the show.

[Cas Stark]

The interest in season 5 is flagging from what I've read, and it has nothing to do with Jaime going to Dorne in place of Oakheart, or the missing Arianne.

It's the storyline itself. For those who hold worldbuilding and extraneous political wrangling more important than a focus on already established plotlines, that's fine. That doesn't translate well in the visual medium, though. Though the two books (Feast and Dance) had moments of brilliance, it mostly felt that the writer was struggling to move forward in the song itself. In his attempt to show the aftermath of war we have Feast now a trilogy in itself, and still in a work in progress. The show cannot spend anymore time than it has to on Feast/Dance. The complaints the book recieved is now being heard from show-only fans. The great threat to mankind/Westeros has been sidelined in favour of a very long Chess match.

By sending Jaime (the most visually appealing man in Westeros) and Bronn (the rootin' tootin' stabbity-happy comic sidekick) to Dorne, they are eliminating Oakheart (not so appealing, and with no charisma whatsoever) and creating a sense of urgency to Myrcella's story.

I'm one who won't miss Arriane (sp?). Breasts, sex and entitlement issues. That's all she was, imo. I get that a lot of Westeros.org members adore Arriane. There are just over 100,000 members on this site, yet that number is a small drop in the book reader bucket. And even smaller when compared to the show-only fans.

tl;dr version:

The storyline of Dorne needs to be interesting...Jaime and Bronn are interesting. With them in Dorne, those getting bored with the 'neverending' feel of the story will continue to watch, hopefully.

I sort of agree and disagree.

I agree there were significant issues with the last two books, and that theoretically TV should be able to make those books progress more smoothly and with better flow and focus.

I have no problem w/them cutting extraneous storylines as I feel that the author gave himself a bit too much license there in creating too many new POVs and stories and the audience isn't really vested in.

But, I'm not confident that the show's decisions are much of an improvement, it feels disorganized and convoluted, and these are things within the show only.

I will have to assume Dorne plays some kind of major major role and so it couldn't be cut, because, me personnally, if it's a choice between the Riverlands and Dorne, I'm cutting Dorne and keeping Gendry, the Brotherhood, Stoneheart, the Blackfish and Edmure Tully and I am getting rid of the stupid as fuck Martell family.

And these continuity problems are unforced errors. Necklaces. Babies. Strategy changes.

[El Guapo]

There is no problem if Bronn isn't going to Dorne but because he is going now they have the problem that you talked about. Im talking about what you said that they couldn't just show Bronn traveling with Jaime because that would be seen as the plot hole because of Bronn's marriage.

What I meant was I don't think there is any problem. they could have handled this the way that Patrick wrote above and I would have been fine with that. They decided to show rather than tell and I don't have a problem with that either. I liked the scene and it only took about what 2 minutes of screentime. I am seriously baffled as to why this is even an issue. There are plenty of legitimate things that can be criticized about this season, the change to Ellarai being one great example. Nit picking about this seems so trivial.

[Good Guy Garlan]

The interest in season 5 is flagging from what I've read, and it has nothing to do with Jaime going to Dorne in place of Oakheart, or the missing Arianne.

It's the storyline itself. For those who hold worldbuilding and extraneous political wrangling more important than a focus on already established plotlines, that's fine. That doesn't translate well in the visual medium, though. Though the two books (Feast and Dance) had moments of brilliance, it mostly felt that the writer was struggling to move forward in the song itself. In his attempt to show the aftermath of war we have Feast now a trilogy in itself, and still in a work in progress. The show cannot spend anymore time than it has to on Feast/Dance. The complaints the book recieved is now being heard from show-only fans. The great threat to mankind/Westeros has been sidelined in favour of a very long Chess match.

By sending Jaime (the most visually appealing man in Westeros) and Bronn (the rootin' tootin' stabbity-happy comic sidekick) to Dorne, they are eliminating Oakheart (not so appealing, and with no charisma whatsoever) and creating a sense of urgency to Myrcella's story.

I'm one who won't miss Arriane (sp?). Breasts, sex and entitlement issues. That's all she was, imo. I get that a lot of Westeros.org members adore Arriane. There are just over 100,000 members on this site, yet that number is a small drop in the book reader bucket. And even smaller when compared to the show-only fans.

tl;dr version:

The storyline of Dorne needs to be interesting...Jaime and Bronn are interesting. With them in Dorne, those getting bored with the 'neverending' feel of the story will continue to watch, hopefully.

I have no problem with Jaime and Bronn going to Dorne, mostly because

a) Like you said, Arys Oakheart was a bore and I find a lot of elements of Dorne to be lackluster

and

b ) Other than his dealings with the Tullys, I found most of Jaime's aFfC storyline to be just treading water

But...what I don't like is the whole undercover, mission impossible deal. I think it's cheesy and unnecessary. If D&D are all into streamlining and merging storylines and characters, why didn't they combine Jaime with Balon Swann. Have him go to Dorne with the pretext of taking Gregor's skull to the Martells and to fetch Myrcella with the excuse that Tommen misses her. He could've taken Bronn too, why not? But I guess the undercover thing is more "tv friendly" or whatever

[StepStark]

But then they would have to cut Bronn out of the show.

So? Does Bronn have to be in the show? Is he the main character or something? Is Bronn more important than Cersei's moves and decisions and her negotiations with Kevan for example? Is Bronn more important than Jaime finishing the war for the Lannisters and along with that inspecting Cersei's affairs that he found out about from Tyrion? Oh that's right Tyrion didn't tell him anything about that in the show so Jaime can't have any doubts about Cersei and he can't inspect Lancel and Kettleblacks. Oh that's right Kettleblacks aren't cast in the show but Lolys is so Kettleblacks certainly aren't important for the endgame but Lolys definitely is because if not why would D&D cast her at all?

Maybe there can be a great story out of Bronn's character but Im absolutely sure about two things: a) Martin would tell that story much much better than D&D ever can. b) Martin is telling a much better story than that one and that is ASOIAF and in that story Bronn's arc is finished at least for now.

[Carey Snow]

So? Does Bronn have to be in the show? Is he the main character or something? Is Bronn more important than Cersei's moves and decisions and her negotiations with Kevan for example? Is Bronn more important than Jaime finishing the war for the Lannisters and along with that inspecting Cersei's affairs that he found out about from Tyrion? Oh that's right Tyrion didn't tell him anything about that in the show so Jaime can't have any doubts about Cersei and he can't inspect Lancel and Kettleblacks. Oh that's right Kettleblacks aren't cast in the show but Lolys is so Kettleblacks certainly aren't important for the endgame but Lolys definitely is because if not why would D&D cast her at all?

Maybe there can be a great story out of Bronn's character but Im absolutely sure about two things: a) Martin would tell that story much much better than D&D ever can. B) Martin is telling a much better story than that one and that is ASOIAF and in that story Bronn's arc is finished at least for now.

Bronn's arc is alive and well in the books. It is just being told through Cersei's POV, "off camera", so to speak. Besides that, I agree with your points, and I personally think that the show is going off the rails. There is no doubt the last two books could have used better editing and could have been combined in a better way. Splitting the books up by locals was a mistake. It would have been better to tell the whole story and just stop at different places. That said, it is clearly a better story than what is being told in the show. It is starting to look cheesy and typical fantasy fare. The Sand Snakes are like Xena the warrior princess. Jamie and Bronn are going on a undercover mission to rescue the princess with no politics involved. Brienne and Pod are a comedy routine and not building a relationship. What are they even going to do with Varys? Some of the greatness of the books is that Martin is routinely breaking the typical fantasy plot lines and instead goes in refreshingly unexpected directions. Right now it looks like the show is going in the typical fantasy directions. But we shall see. It is only 2 episodes in, they may pull it together.

[Esa1996]

Edited for spoilers.

Edited for spoilers.

You should both edit your comments and remove the spoilers. Ran has clearly stated that anyone who talks about the leaked episodes will be permanently banned.

[Carey Snow]

Ok, I do not understand how the Ramsay/Sansa marriage is even possible. Isn't Sansa still wanted as an accomplice in Joff's murder? And the Bolton's are in bed with the Lannisters so they would be most likely to turn her over to Cersei. I understood that the folks in the vale may want to help her as her aunt ruled there but the Bolton's need Tommen on their side. And on Sansa's end, isn't she aware that the Bolton's conspired with the Freys against Robb? Seems like that would be problematic.

I think the writers should have stuck closer to the books this season, what they are writing is not making a whole lot of sense.

[Mr Fixit]

Actually, the more I think about it, the more sense it makes. What's the best political card to play when in deep shit? Nationalism of course! The Northern nobles hate the Boltons and are looking for some payback at the earliest opportunity. Stannis is parked at the Wall with considerable forces. Roose isn't stupid; he knows this. He is also aware that his best "friend" and guarantor of his rule, Tywin, is dead and that King's Landing is in no position to help him retain his grap on the North in case shit gets real. With that in mind, marrying Sansa to Ramsay seems like a good idea. Roose gets the last living Stark (as far as he knows) which means that Sansa's children, whoever fathers them, really are heirs to Winterfell, even from a Stark loyalist perspective. And since Sansa is wanted for regicide, that can also serve to boost Roose's credentials as a true Northern patriot. Yeah, Red Wedding was unfortunate and all, but see how I stick the middle finger to those southron pansies. Support me and I'll make us independent once and for all!

[Carey Snow]

Actually, the more I think about it, the more sense it makes. What's the best political card to play when in deep shit? Nationalism of course! The Northern nobles hate the Boltons and are looking for some payback at the earliest opportunity. Stannis is parked at the Wall with considerable forces. Roose isn't stupid; he knows this. He is also aware that his best "friend" and guarantor of his rule, Tywin, is dead and that King's Landing is in no position to help him retain his grap on the North in case shit gets real. With that in mind, marrying Sansa to Ramsay seems like a good idea. Roose gets the last living Stark (as far as he knows) which means that Sansa's children, whoever fathers them, really are heirs to Winterfell, even from a Stark loyalist perspective. And since Sansa is wanted for regicide, that can also serve to boost Roose's credentials as a true Northern patriot. Yeah, Red Wedding was unfortunate and all, but see how I stick the middle finger to those southron pansies. Support me and I'll make us independent once and for all!

I am not sure they can become independent, and Sansa's whereabouts will quickly become known in King's Landing. If they piss off the Lannisters they would end up with a war on both sides.

[Mr Fixit]

I am not sure they can become independent, and Sansa's whereabouts will quickly become known in King's Landing. If they piss off the Lannisters they would end up with a war on both sides.

With Tywin dead and their armies decimated in the war, the Lannisters are in no position to wage war against the North. And, as I said, nationalism! The only way Roose can bring his nobles to heel is if there's an outside threat to unite them. Lannisters (and Stannis) could do the trick, if he plays his cards right.

[StepStark]

Actually, the more I think about it, the more sense it makes. What's the best political card to play when in deep shit? Nationalism of course! The Northern nobles hate the Boltons and are looking for some payback at the earliest opportunity. Stannis is parked at the Wall with considerable forces. Roose isn't stupid; he knows this. He is also aware that his best "friend" and guarantor of his rule, Tywin, is dead and that King's Landing is in no position to help him retain his grap on the North in case shit gets real. With that in mind, marrying Sansa to Ramsay seems like a good idea. Roose gets the last living Stark (as far as he knows) which means that Sansa's children, whoever fathers them, really are heirs to Winterfell, even from a Stark loyalist perspective. And since Sansa is wanted for regicide, that can also serve to boost Roose's credentials as a true Northern patriot. Yeah, Red Wedding was unfortunate and all, but see how I stick the middle finger to those southron pansies. Support me and I'll make us independent once and for all!

With Tywin dead and their armies decimated in the war, the Lannisters are in no position to wage war against the North. And, as I said, nationalism! The only way Roose can bring his nobles to heel is if there's an outside threat to unite them. Lannisters (and Stannis) could do the trick, if he plays his cards right.

Sorry but no it doesn't make sense at all. Distancing from Lannisters is one thing but marrying a girl wanted for regicide is something else completely. That is not distancing from Lannisters that is declaring a war to them. And right now they maybe dont have enough power to fight a war but if they manage to hold their rule for a few years they will absolutely be able to fight the war with Boltons. And lets not forget that Lannisters always pay their depths even in the show. And about Stannis I don't know which northern lord would be so stupid to side with Boltons against Stannis. Boltons were involved in Red Wedding while Stannis so far never harmed anyone from the north. And by the way what can be Littlefinger's possible angle in all this? Why the hell would he went all that trouble to secure the vale for himself only to now leave it? In fact nothing seems to make sense the more I think about it.