Who killed Little Walder?

[ThePromiseThatWasAPrince]

The hooded man. Theon was walking toward the part of Winterfell where Little Walder's body was found. The hooded man was walking away from where Little Walder's body was found. Little Walder's body was across from the entrance of the Winterfell crypts. The hooded man killed Little Walder because Little Walder saw him exiting from the crypts.

I have tried to explain in the past about why the blood on Big Walder did not support the idea that he killed Little Walder, but if you don't have a lot of experience with extreme cold temperatures and snow, I guess the explanation doesn't make sense.

Anyhow, I think it was the hooded man, whoever he is.

The Hooded Man indeed, but not just him. Theon is the Hooded Man.

Theon is going crazy, so in his delusional mind, he sees this man walking away from a body, who happens to recognize Theon, and antagonizes him. It is most likely Theon's subconscious messing with him after he killed Little Walder. Stew on that for a minute.

[Cas Stark]

Theon Durden is crackpot as far as I'm concerned.

I initially thought it was the Manderly men, but on reread, I think it probably was Big Walder, he's got motive--his cousin is turning into a Ramsay type and it removes one more person in like for the Twins; he's got the means and the opportunity, he's covered in blood, so we know he touched the body.

I doubt it was the hooded man either, whoever he is, which isn't Theon's subconscious. In my opinion.

[aryagonnakill#2]

I don't see why we would be given the clue of the blood being all over him if it wasn't Big Walder. I also think Theon Durden is crackpot and would be really disappointed if it was true. I would also point out that if it is true, then Theons subconscious is smart enough to have cleaned off his dagger/ not gotten a single drop of blood on himself.

[BitsOfBrains]

Now that someone pointed out that Little Walder was higher in the Frey succession I am sold on him.

My read on him was that he was kind of not so bad but I have been convinced he did it.

[Knight of the Teabags]

My theory is that the Manderly guards did indeed kill Little Walder but with Big Walder as a somewhat coerced accomplice.

Big Walder's main motive is saving his own skin.

When Big Walder earlier confided with 'Reek' in the stables we learn Big Walder has pretty much worked out that Manderly was behind the three Freys killed on the road between White Harbor and Winterfell. He's also right in concluding Manderly is out to potentially kill every Frey in the North. The fact he is confiding this with 'Reek' who's a madman suggests he either failed already or realises he is unlikely to convince his relatives or the Boltons of the danger and his sole concern is how to save himself. At which point he only has one person to turn to: which is Manderly himself and try and cut a deal, I believe the price Manderly put on Big Walder's life was to help set up the rest of his kin for slaughter.

Which puts a whole other meaning on the quote 'He might have grown up to be a Frey'.

[Alaynsa Starne]

I've heard people say Big Walder but I am not sure why he would do it.

They seemed to be kind of friends.

Maybe Theon Durden? They did say Little Walder liked to join in Ramseys cruelties.

Plus Theon has killed innocent children (that might even have been his own) so why would he mind killing a not so innocent child?

I think Big Walder was the really vicious one, and also the one who wanted to be Lord of the Twins. I don't think he and Little Walder were especially close, they just kept getting paired together.

And Theon didn't kill children by his own hand, and he was pretty torn up about it afterwards. I doubt he'd kill a child in cold blood and be so casual about it after that he didn't even internally give a hint about his guilt.

[bemused]

I hope I can keep the bigs and littles straight.. here goes..

Big Walder did the deed, but at Roose's behest (or possibly Ramsay's, but I think that's less likely).

Looking at the killings in general .. At first, they remind Theon of the killings Ramsay, as "Reek" committed in WF before he sacked it. He has other thoughts later.. the HM.. the spearwives... but I think his first thought was right.

As opposed to Roose, Ramsay always wanted to take the fight to Stannis , and resents having to tone down his "amusements" in the presence of the other northerners. He would want to force Roose's hand.

Roose tells us that all Ramsay's men are really his men .. but this would exclude the Walders ,who have been under Ramsay's "protection" since the sack. Little Walder has been on the road to becoming Ramsay's "best boy" (a sort of mini Yellow Dick).

Both Roose and Ramsay try to get Theon to carry "cool it" messages to Ramsay. Theon wouldn't dare. Yellow Dick , Ramsay's current "best boy", would not share Theon's fears.

Roose tells Theon he owes him a debt of gratitude...

Bolton’s pale eyes looked empty in the moonlight, as if there were no one behind

them at all. “I mean you no harm, you know. I owe you much and more.”

“You do?” Some part of him was screaming, This is a trap, he is playing with you, the son is just the shadow of the father. Lord Ramsay played with his hopes all the time. “What … what do you owe me, m’lord?”

..so Theon tells us that Roose would also play with a person's hopes. .. and we know that Big Walder has a very specific hope (and a determination ) to become Lord of the Crossing. He's young, ambitious and unlike Theon, might not see the son as his father's shadow. Roose played a large role in bringing down Rob Stark, maybe he could help advance Big Walder.

And so, I think most of the killings were Ramsay's , but the grizzled Frey squire found naked in the lichyard may be down to the spearwives.. (intentional or unintentional). Yellow Dick was Ramsay's work (perhaps with the help of Little Walder)... probably as a result of Ramsay realizing YD was actually Roose's man.

Roose then counters by getting Big Walder to kill Little. At this stage he doesn't mind letting Manderly take the blame. Manderly brought a relatively small number of fighting men, and Roose is convinced he's plotting against the Boltons, anyway... but it's doubtful Big Walder could have carried out the deed alone, without someone to hold Little Walder. Little W. was much bigger and stronger, yet Big W. has no apparent injuries....

The blood on BW is caked (congealed, but not frozen)..The scent of it set the horses to screaming.. but the blood on LW's body is definitely frozen ... The body in Ser Hosteen’s arms sparkled in the torchlight, armored in pink frost. The cold outside had frozen his blood.

The body had been outside for some time, but Big W. appears to have been waiting inside until the appropriate moment to "discover" the body. His questioning by Roose seems rehearsed.

[ThePromiseThatWasAPrince]

The real questions is, what purpose did it serve? So what if BW came after LW in the line of succession for the Twins, he still has like 9000 other people in front of him (exaggeration). This is why I think it has to be someone else. Unless Roose or Ramsey plan on killing all the other Frey's as well, it serves no purpose other than to cause dissent amongst those gathered at Winterfell. The blood being on BW could be from discovering LW and running for help, since he is bigger the BW, so he would need help to get him out of the snow. Or I could be totally ass wrong and it was BW, but killing him for succession really doesn't pay it for me.

[I Am TheSongOf IceAndFire]

Daario

or maybe Rhaegar

[bemused]

The real questions is, what purpose did it serve? So what if BW came after LW in the line of succession for the Twins, he still has like 9000 other people in front of him (exaggeration). This is why I think it has to be someone else. Unless Roose or Ramsey plan on killing all the other Frey's as well, it serves no purpose other than to cause dissent amongst those gathered at Winterfell. The blood being on BW could be from discovering LW and running for help, since he is bigger the BW, so he would need help to get him out of the snow. Or I could be totally ass wrong and it was BW, but killing him for succession really doesn't pay it for me.

I agree that LW's death didn't advance BW much, but the point is ..it serves Roose's purpose, in making sure that Ramsay has NO men of his own.

Roose knows Ramsay very well, and he knows what went on at WF when Theon held it and Ramsay was "Reek". I think he could figure out the game Ramsay was playing. He probably sent some form of warning or suggestion about the killings and Ramsay's treatment of "Arya" via Yellow Dick.

The violence of his killing stands out from any of the previous deaths. It can't be passed off as accidental. It speaks of rage, and a strength that would argue against it being committed by the spearwives, but it's very compatible with Ramsay's outburst of rage against Barbrey Dustin, in which he threatened to "cut off her teats and feed them to my girls".

Roose orders the death to be kept quiet, but Ramsay talks it up in open defiance.

Roose enlists Big Walder in LW's killing (Roose always likes to appear to have clean hands), thus removing, in one stroke, the only two possible accomplices Ramsay has left.

If Big Walder thinks (or hopes) that Roose will then help him remove some of the rivals ahead of him in the succession, Roose would let him think it. to quote Barbrey Dustin..

".. This is a game to him, mildly diverting. Some men hunt, some hawk, some tumble dice. Roose plays with men. You and me, these Freys, Lord Manderly, his plump new wife, even his bastard, we are but his playthings.”

ETA: Since the blood on the body was frozen , but the blood on BW was not, it can't have come from merely discovering the body. He would have had to wait for some time indoors before telling anyone.. also, frozen blood does not spatter, like the blood on BW's "chest and arms and cloak."

[pigpiginsunspear]

Big Walder's story that Littler Walder was looking for a White Harbor knight who owed him money is way too suspect to overlook. I vote Big Walder.

[Lost Melnibonean]

Big Walder

It is known.

[edd tollett:(]

I'd say big walder, all day. Little walder was a head of big in the line of succession. And I believe big walder has got a big plan, he stated as much in clash, didn't he?

[Petyr Patter]

Not enough attention is paid to the obvious suspect... or at least the usual suspect. Ramsay.

Now, I know what you are thinking, why would Ramsay kill... Oh, he doesn't really need a reason.

All the blood on Big Walder really shows is he had contact with the body within a few hours of death.

That is hardly conclusive.

[Fire Eater]

I agree with this but it could also mean that Big Walder was there and helped carrying his body when Little Walder was butchered. A possible scenario is that Ramsay did it and implicated the Manderlys in order to force Roose's hand to send the host against Stannis. Wyman saw this scheme too but it was also suitable for his own game, so he jabbed the Freys with "Mayhaps" and got it on.

Blood on his hands really seal the deal for me. Besides, Ramsay is not that cunning, and if he wanted to force Roose's hand he would have done so without risking alienating the Freys.

[Lord BitterRaven]

I'll take the sneaky Blackfish for 500$ Alex! lol

I don't know why the spearwives would risk exposure to kill strangers.

[SerJeremiahLouistark]

The other Walder. But honestly, Manderlay is right, now he doesn't have to grow up with the name Walder Frey. Good riddance.

[BitsOfBrains]

Also isn't Little half Blackwood? Blackwoods tend not to fuck around.

The grasping, treacherous, conniving Frey genes combined with the stubborn, hard, warlike Blackwood genes? Yeah I bet he did it.

[danm_999]

Also isn't Little half Blackwood? Blackwoods tend not to fuck around.

The grasping, treacherous, conniving Frey genes combined with the stubborn, hard, warlike Blackwood genes? Yeah I bet he did it.

Ha good catch!

Big Walder is of the Blackwood Frey's, whose number include Lame Lothar Frey ie; the Frey who pretended to be Robb's buddy and lured Robb to the Twins to attend Edmure's weddin), and then planned the way in which the Reins of Castamere would be used to murder the guests.

Merrett calls him one of the most dangerous of all Frey's too.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Also isn't Little half Blackwood? Blackwoods tend not to fuck around.

The grasping, treacherous, conniving Frey genes combined with the stubborn, hard, warlike Blackwood genes? Yeah I bet he did it.

No, his mother is a Darry, his grandmother was a Crakehall. No Blackwood genes for Little Walder, as far as is known.