[Book Spoilers Inc WoW Chapters] Ser Barristan Selmy

[Red Tiger]

You realize most of the gold cloaks are utter jokes, right? Tyrion points out that most of them aren't real soldiers but just rabble Cersei picked up.

[Genius]

The "Next Time On..." and next ep previews are notorious for throwing out false information to throw viewers off. What if Dany asks Missandei for some crazy Naath ritual to help save him, and that's how they set it up? Which probably wouldn't fit with Dany after what happened with Drogo, Rhaego, Mirri Maz Duur etc., but what viewer remembers that at this point? Basically I really want him to still be alive because his POV chapters are the most exciting and unpredictable parts of ADWD..

He's still alive to me, dammit!

Until he's dead. Then I suppose he's dead in the alternate universe that is the show.

[sj4iy]

You realize most of the gold cloaks are utter jokes, right? Tyrion points out that most of them aren't real soldiers but just rabble Cersei picked up.

This. The term "Kingsguard" doesn't mean much when you are simply using the position to confer favors.

[Red Tiger]

This. The term "Kingsguard" doesn't mean much when you are simply using the position to confer favors.

Gold cloaks are actuallty the City Watch (yeah, the show costume designers make this shit quite confusing :bang: ), but your point remains as both the Kingsguard and City Watch are utter jokes.

[sj4iy]

Gold cloaks are actuallty the City Watch (yeah, the show costume designers make this shit quite confusing :bang: ), but your point remains as both the Kingsguard and City Watch are utter jokes.

Uh, sorry. Long day. But both are complete jokes, I agree...completely corrupt because Robert didn't care and Cersei made it worse.

[skhansa1559]

Why would highly trained soldiers led by their top commander, presumably the most highly trained and educated among them, rush into a narrow alleyway in a battlefield spear formation...

Why would the most expensive, most well equipped slave soldiers available in the world not come with a side arm? The Unsullied haven't had their short swords at all since they appeared on this show. This fact has been very irksome to me from the beginning, and especially so while watching this scene unfold.

The Unsullied might be a little overrated, but this scene was just dumb to me.

RIP Ser Barristan. He went out as well as he could given the futility of the whole situation.

I had a theory that Dany would end up going all Mad King, and honorable Ser Barristan would have to Jaime Lannister her. But I guess I was off on that count.

[Red Tiger]

I always thought the Unsullied were a case of crippling overspecialization. They were highly trained sure, but trained for battle in vast open fields. Plus you have to keep in mind they were trained not to feel any fear or pain. Now that might sound badass and it kinda is, but it also means you are not afraid to die or unafraid to make mistakes, ergo you will make plenty of mistakes and rush into moronic situations.

[pukelman]

The Unsullied question is a really interesting one. No doubt they are a little overrated - they are a heavily advertised product, after all - but how good are they really?

I actually like the way they've chosen to equip them in the show. It's a 'cost-effective' armament rather than necessarily the best one. Their armour covers the obvious vulnerabilities, but is far from comprehensive. They carry spears, partly because they're trained as a phalanx, but also I suspect because spears are cheaper and easier to produce en masse than swords. Perhaps they don't carry sidearms for the same reason - expense.

Is there a little bit of Dany's hubris in the Unsullied too? Why not increase their armaments and broaden their training to make them better city guards? I may be rationalizing a bit too much, but thematically I think it works well. Dany is, after all, losing control of Meereen precisely because of her inflexibility and unwillingness to adapt to new circumstances.

[templar7]

**POSSIBLE [WOW] SPOILERS BELOW** (I haven't figured out the hidden spoiler text trick yet)

The loss of Barristan was the first time I lost all faith in D+D. I've been angry/sad/fuming/confused all day. It's been confirmed that Selmy is dead and Grey Worm survives, although there is speculation that Selmy lives long enough to impart some sage advice to Dany.

What irks me the most is that I feel like a lot of the book readers were looking forward to Barristan's aDwD story arc. Now I'm guessing that they will give it to Jorah or Daario (UGGGGHHH, Daario.) Tyrion will earn Dany's trust and become the new advisor/Westerosi history teacher, and either Jorah or Daario will step into Selmy's role once Dany takes flight. This is a true shame. D+D really wasted Barristan's character on the show and to have him go out in such a casual fashion was the worst. I simply can't see Jorah or Darrio giving the same rousing speech/monologue that Selmy gives his "army" in the WOW chapter. He was a leader. A commander. The greatest knight in the Seven Kingdoms.

I also loved every page of the Barristan chapters in aDwD. When he finally puts the Harpies down, I had to turn each page very slowly and with caution since I was so scared he wasn't going to make it. The book really gave that story arc beautiful tension and suspense.

Killing Ser Barristan Badass at this point in the season just doesn't make any sense. He should have had his day in the pit at least. The death seemed like it was nothing more than an attempt at "shock value", but most non-book readers didn't even know the real Barristan so they weren't that shocked. My unsullied friends didn't bat an eyelash when "that old guy died." They wasted a great character and even wasted him in death.

Why the writers decided to go this route is beyond me, other than they wanted to thin out Dany's entourage because they think viewers are too dense to handle all the storylines and characters ... which is patronizing and offends our intelligence.

RIP Ser Barristan the Bold, I'm grateful I still have you in the books.

#ITSHOULDHAVEBEENDAARIO

Thank you, I dont have to write anything now, you said it perfectly!

[Claymore]

Ser Barristan's apparent fate has pretty much dispelled any remaining doubts I may have had about the inclusion of the Siege of Meereen. It probably bodes ill for his survival in that conflict.

[clawson24]

I always thought the Unsullied were a case of crippling overspecialization. They were highly trained sure, but trained for battle in vast open fields. Plus you have to keep in mind they were trained not to feel any fear or pain. Now that might sound badass and it kinda is, but it also means you are not afraid to die or unafraid to make mistakes, ergo you will make plenty of mistakes and rush into moronic situations.

Agreed. People calling them "undefeatable" or the "best soldiers in the world" are overstating it a bit in my opinion. They are extremely skilled, extremely obedient, and fearless, but obedience means little outside of organized battle situations and fearlessness doesn't stop four daggers to the torso from killing you. They are excellent soldiers but not undefeatable fighters.

[The Dragon has three heads]

Having been prepared to defend the show, after ep 4 I can't.

I just can't.

The unsullied who don't know better or don't understand how important selmy is, is itself a huge failure on behalf of the show.

Couple this with the sand snake intro of which indira was the only solid player/actor and the other women although trying I'm sure, got no way to show their range. And obaras little speech was too long, and the spear throw was stupid.

So freaking stupid.

[sj4iy]

The unsullied who don't know what a secondary character like Selmy does in the books better or don't understand how important selmy is in the books, is itself a huge failure not something that actually matters in on behalf of the show.

FTFY. Because again, what happens in the books to Selmy is absolutely irrelevant in the show.

In any case, as a book reader myself, I'm finding it kind of difficult to understand why anyone would claim that Selmy was THAT important to begin with. Seriously. He really isn't, and it's very likely that he'll die soon in the books anyway after all of five POV chapters so far.

[CaptainTheo]

I have already been very unhappy at some of the changes made in this season yet (Mance being burned, Tommen/Margaery consummating their marriage, a betrothal between Sansa and Ramsay) but this gets my vote for the most idiotic adaptation change yet. I thought not promoting Ser Barristan to series regular was bad enough (given that the likes of Daario and Missandei got promoted) but killing him? With Jorah banished and with increasing strife in Mereen, Ser Barristan plays an increasingly important role at this point in the series. (They never even bothered casting his sidekick Strong Belwas.) Later in the story, Barristan basically takes charge of Dany’s storyline, becoming a POV character late in the books and getting no fewer than four chapters. Not only that but he appears in an unreleased chapter in book #6 and survives this too, remaining alive and well. It’s worse than the writers not knowing his fate… this time (if they have been paying any attention at all) they know that he survives and they kill him off anyway! WTF??

I also think it is a brainless decision because it makes Barristan's return at the start of season #3 pointless – all he ever did was save Dany’s life when he first appeared, and give her good advice that she mostly ignored. His death is equally pointless, especially as the Sons of the Harpy already committed murders in episode #1.

Aside from which he was the most perfect knight in every sense of the word. Not to mention he’s one of the best fighters in the world and should not be anywhere near that easy to kill. (Compare this to the scene late in season #3 where Daario, Grey Worm and Jorah manage to defeat a succession of guards when invading Yunkai.) It's as if this season the writers insist on killing off a character every episode just for the hell of it, no matter how stupid and pointless it is.

And this also rams home the point that the show is best when the writers don't deviate too far from the books. (Season #1 was truest to the books and I found it consistently strong and entertaining.)

[The Bear]

You realize most of the gold cloaks are utter jokes, right? Tyrion points out that most of them aren't real soldiers but just rabble Cersei picked up.

Yes, but they're rabble with armor and swords with some training as opposed to the CoTH who are all nobles with no training, no armor and they're armed with just daggers. Ostensibly it would be harder to fight them than the harpies. Barristan also thinks that he could take on all the kingsguard present when Joffery strips him of command, and while it's only a thought Barristan isn't arrogant or proud about his abilities and it's probably fairly accurate. These book incidents inform my opinion of Barristan's fighting abilities but like I said, this isn't show Barristan and we don't see him doing the same things on the show as he did in the books. Hell, maybe show Barristan just isn't as good as he is in the books.

I'm not really sure why there's a debate about this, it's just my opinion. I'm not presenting what I'm saying as fact.

[TheSmallOther]

I'm not really sure why there's a debate about this, it's just my opinion. I'm not presenting what I'm saying as fact.

Well, most of the things worth to have debate about, are opinions. Especially in forums. Facts, if they are really facts, usually are discussed much less.

[Jon Snow Bengal]

I just hope they don't skip over Tyrions story too much. I can't remember seeing any casting for Griff, Aegon or Penny and they are fantastic characters.

[Jon Snow Bengal]

Agree completely with Captain Theo.

It's okay to use a little bit of creative license to add to the story but skipping completely over essential elements to a characters arc is going too far. It's dangerous territory when all they had to do was stick to the road, stay clear of the moors :) I just hope it doesn't turn into another Lost; I'm already at the stage when i don't really care if i watch episode 5 or not. I'm just not excited anymore.

[robasp2]

Ofcourse the unsullied are overhyped. Thats what the Astapor masters wanted. To spread hype and sell them at extremely high prices.

The only time I saw a dagger with them was when Daario sneaked into Dany's tent.

And ofcourse Barristan had no role except telling her that her father was mad.

He spoke from experience yet she ignored him every frikkin time. This highlights that Dany is currently a bad ruler and that is what they wished to convey.

Hence old ser became a good old grandpa who tells kids the history since dany had no use of his advice. No "fair trial" given to the former slave.

I must confess that I feel D&D irritate me with the slaves always screaming. Uhh..

Misah, mercy, misah, aah :(

[El Guapo]

Ofcourse the unsullied are overhyped. Thats what the Astapor masters wanted. To spread hype and sell them at extremely high prices.

The only time I saw a dagger with them was when Daario sneaked into Dany's tent.

And ofcourse Barristan had no role except telling her that her father was mad.

He spoke from experience yet she ignored him every frikkin time. This highlights that Dany is currently a bad ruler and that is what they wished to convey.

Hence old ser became a good old grandpa who tells kids the history since dany had no use of his advice. No "fair trial" given to the former slave.

I must confess that I feel D&D irritate me with the slaves always screaming. Uhh..

Misah, mercy, misah, aah :(

Actually she didn't.