[Book Spoilers Inc WoW Chapters] Ser Barristan Selmy

[El Guapo]

In addition to Tyrion being in the fighting pits there was a poster over at WOTW who showed an image from one of the trailers where it appears that Tyrion is in Dany's throne room. He suspects that he will be there during her "break the wheel" speech. We shall see about that, but it wouldn't surprise me one bit. The showrunners are not going delay the meeting up of two of their most popular charcters until next season.

[pukelman]

Uh no...it's not "ridiculous". Talk to my FiL, who can't remember the names of anyone past the Starks and Lannisters. Or the people who think Dany's name is khaleesi. Or hell, just watch the honest trailer for the show and how half of it is spent making fun of the fact that there are too many characters to remember on the show.

It's not people "being dumb", either- the pace is much faster and if you only see a character like Janos Slynt for a few minutes each season, it's easy to see why people forgot who he was. The show CAN'T be like the books and keep unnecessary characters around. Sucks for Selmy, but his loss is needed so that Dany's problems get worse. She needs a void, so that others (like Tyrion, possibly) can fill it.

I know somebody who LOVES the show but could never tell Jon Snow and Robb Stark apart. She ended up assuming that if there was snow in the scene it was 'Jon Snow' and if there wasn't any snow it was 'Non Snow' i.e. Robb.

[robasp2]

I know somebody who LOVES the show but could never tell Jon Snow and Robb Stark apart. She ended up assuming that if there was snow in the scene it was 'Jon Snow' and if there wasn't any snow it was 'Non Snow' i.e. Robb.

Good lord !!

Some people only watch the show because everyone watches it and dont want to be left out. I have a friend too who still thinks GoT is still about Stark vs Lannister. Like a soccer game :/

Anyway.. Should D&D stoop so low to please these dumb idiots? I think they take too much feedback these days rather than following their heart.

I maybe wrong but thats what I think..esp after sept scene

[sj4iy]

Good lord !!

Some people only watch the show because everyone watches it and dont want to be left out. I have a friend too who still thinks GoT is still about Stark vs Lannister. Like a soccer game :/

Anyway.. Should D&D stoop so low to please these dumb idiots? I think they take too much feedback these days rather than following their heart.

I maybe wrong but thats what I think..esp after sept scene

No need for insults. People aren't 'idiots' just because they don't care to get invested in a fantasy tv show beyond watching it once a week. This show is one of the most complicated shows ever to air. It has one of the largest casts of any tv show or movie- probably THE largest number of speaking parts ever for the medium. I enjoy dissecting and rewatching the show as well as dissecting the books, but I don't expect everyone to be the same way. When my fil asks me questions and messes up the names, I don't think of him as 'an idiot'...I think of him as someone who enjoys the show as something to watch once a week and nothing more.

And it's obvious that D&D don't 'aim' for the casual show watchers, since most of the casual show watchers don't know most of the characters. It's obvious to me that they aim for what the show requires, and not for what the audience wants- which is what they should aim for.

[Joe Pesci]

With there not being all of the Tower of Joy info on the show, could it be possible that before Barristan dies he tells Dany about R+L=J? I'm sure it would infuriate a lot of people but Barristan is the only real link the show has to Rhaegar.

[Nathaniel Stark]

With there not being all of the Tower of Joy info on the show, could it be possible that before Barristan dies he tells Dany about R+L=J? I'm sure it would infuriate a lot of people but Barristan is the only real link the show has to Rhaegar.

Very interesting idea, I actually think with all the clues in this last episode, you could be right. It would be a huge moment if he did. I hope you are right!

[Red Tiger]

With there not being all of the Tower of Joy info on the show, could it be possible that before Barristan dies he tells Dany about R+L=J? I'm sure it would infuriate a lot of people but Barristan is the only real link the show has to Rhaegar.

Oh please, you and I both know what he'll say

"Tell Ashara, i'll be late for dinner"

[Ser Wun Wun]

With there not being all of the Tower of Joy info on the show, could it be possible that before Barristan dies he tells Dany about R+L=J? I'm sure it would infuriate a lot of people but Barristan is the only real link the show has to Rhaegar.

They could still cast Howland Reed. Meera is still alive and if she ever returns south if wouldn't be implausible for her father to show up at some point.

Also, Barristan doesn't know about R+L=J. If he did he would have said something about it already. I realize D&D don't always have their version of the characters behave logically....but man, that would be a doozy even for them. :stillsick:

If he gets to have one last convo with Dany before he dies, maybe he could tell her Rhaegar and Lyanna were in love. Set the ball rolling on unraveling the R+L=J mystery. My gut instinct tells me this won't happen though.

[Joe Pesci]

Also, Barristan doesn't know about R+L=J. If he did he would have said something about it already. I realize D&D don't always have their version of the characters behave logically....but man, that would be a doozy even for them. :stillsick:

Well it's possible he was waiting to make sure she wasn't like her old man, with the discussion about a trial for the captured SOTH being a possible hint at that. And with all the streamlining on the show, he is a logical choice from the show perspective if they don't use Howland Reed. Also, it would be pretty wild when Tyrion shows up Dany could ask him if he has ever heard of this Jon Snow fella...

[Farwynds Oceanseer]

It is too bad that Barristan won't get his character-defining ADWD arc on the show. No training of the new knights, no hint of the freedmen who show signs of being able to fend for themselves once Dany is gone (thus offering some hope for checks and balances between the classes in Meereen). No Round Table or explaining of chivalry to uncomprehending pit fighters, and no badassery by the last True Knight as armies from multiple slave cities converge on Meereen. The whole fascinating question of whether Barristan is successfully playing the game of thrones on Dany's behalf or being played by Shavepate will never come up.

Much as I hate to see the last living embodiment of chivalry get killed off without ever embodying chivalry, I can see how the streamlined plot might call for his early death. I think Barristan's death will force Dany to allow slavery outside Meereen and marry Hizdar to keep the peace within the city. The death of Barristan, the loss of so many Unsullied, and the continued insurgency of the SotH make her look vulnerable because the is. Her continued failure to use her dragons makes it clear she cannot control them. This is why she will have to compromise her ideals on the show. Instead of craving peace, the way she does in the books, she is driven to attempt peace through a political marriage and compromises on slavery because her newly apparent weakness forces her to seek support from factions of the Meereenese nobility.

[pukelman]

It is too bad that Barristan won't get his character-defining ADWD arc on the show. No training of the new knights, no hint of the freedmen who show signs of being able to fend for themselves once Dany is gone (thus offering some hope for checks and balances between the classes in Meereen). No Round Table or explaining of chivalry to uncomprehending pit fighters, and no badassery by the last True Knight as armies from multiple slave cities converge on Meereen. The whole fascinating question of whether Barristan is successfully playing the game of thrones on Dany's behalf or being played by Shavepate will never come up.

Much as I hate to see the last living embodiment of chivalry get killed off without ever embodying chivalry, I can see how the streamlined plot might call for his early death. I think Barristan's death will force Dany to allow slavery outside Meereen and marry Hizdar to keep the peace within the city. The death of Barristan, the loss of so many Unsullied, and the continued insurgency of the SotH make her look vulnerable because the is. Her continued failure to use her dragons makes it clear she cannot control them. This is why she will have to compromise her ideals on the show. Instead of craving peace, the way she does in the books, she is driven to attempt peace through a political marriage and compromises on slavery because her newly apparent weakness forces her to seek support from factions of the Meereenese nobility.

Barriston's dying act is the embodiment of chivalry.

[Cubarey]

Good lord !!

Some people only watch the show because everyone watches it and dont want to be left out. I have a friend too who still thinks GoT is still about Stark vs Lannister. Like a soccer game :/

Anyway.. Should D&D stoop so low to please these dumb idiots? I think they take too much feedback these days rather than following their heart.

I maybe wrong but thats what I think..esp after sept scene

Actually, I have read the books, and frankly the first season I had trouble distinguishing between Robb and Jon, they are far more similar physically in the show then they are in the books. It's not dumb idiots but normal people who do not re-read the books seven times, spend hours on internet channels dealing with the books or watch the show three times. If anything we are the nuts who babble about whether armor has nipples and whether a chracter is wearing the correct costume that might be thought of as idiots.

[The Bear]

First, I was pretty devastated because he's one of my top 5 favourite characters.

My feeling was that Jorah and Tyrion would arrive and Jorah would take Barristan's place as Queensguard and Tyrion would take his place as Hand.

[clawson24]

Well, the average Son of the Harpy would be an average citizen of Meereen - which means he is not trained at arms at all, and should thus not be able to stand a chance against the average Unsullied - who is very much trained at arms.

The whole shield wall stuff refers to the Unsullied's capability to stand against cavalry. That is not the same thing.

25-30 untrained men with daggers still undeniably pose a great threat to 7-8 Unsullied. No amount of puppy killing, baby killing, or martial training can completely counterbalance overwhelming numbers and the element of surprise, especially when the Unsullied are wielding incredibly ineffective weapons in close quarters. It would have been much more ridiculous if those Unsullied handily defeated all of their attackers.

I for one think the Unsullied are pretty overrated as is, and I think this episode spoke to that a little bit. Unfailing obedience and a resistance to pain don't really make much difference in a scenario like this, and the fact that they've received martial training from a young age isn't much different than any other boy who trained from a young age to be a knight, etc.

[TheSmallOther]

They could still cast Howland Reed. Meera is still alive and if she ever returns south if wouldn't be implausible for her father to show up at some point.

Also, Barristan doesn't know about R+L=J. If he did he would have said something about it already. I realize D&D don't always have their version of the characters behave logically....but man, that would be a doozy even for them. :stillsick:

If he gets to have one last convo with Dany before he dies, maybe he could tell her Rhaegar and Lyanna were in love. Set the ball rolling on unraveling the R+L=J mystery. My gut instinct tells me this won't happen though.

Yea, it would be a huge dissapointment, but it's the show. In the books Dany herself thinks R was in love with Lyanna (and it seems she is the only person to think so), so no need for Barristan to tell her.

[Attitude]

No need for insults. People aren't 'idiots' just because they don't care to get invested in a fantasy tv show beyond watching it once a week. This show is one of the most complicated shows ever to air. It has one of the largest casts of any tv show or movie- probably THE largest number of speaking parts ever for the medium. I enjoy dissecting and rewatching the show as well as dissecting the books, but I don't expect everyone to be the same way. When my fil asks me questions and messes up the names, I don't think of him as 'an idiot'...I think of him as someone who enjoys the show as something to watch once a week and nothing more.

And it's obvious that D&D don't 'aim' for the casual show watchers, since most of the casual show watchers don't know most of the characters. It's obvious to me that they aim for what the show requires, and not for what the audience wants- which is what they should aim for.

Thank you! I watch the show with my GF and she does the same. But I am happy to help her understand who is who and why things are happening. Because I can understand it's hard to follow if you didn't read the books!

With there not being all of the Tower of Joy info on the show, could it be possible that before Barristan dies he tells Dany about R+L=J? I'm sure it would infuriate a lot of people but Barristan is the only real link the show has to Rhaegar.

I don't think he knows. And wasn't there some info about the cast shooting a scene near a small tower before the season aired (in december or something?)

[The Bear]

25-30 untrained men with daggers still undeniably pose a great threat to 7-8 Unsullied. No amount of puppy killing, baby killing, or martial training can completely counterbalance overwhelming numbers and the element of surprise, especially when the Unsullied are wielding incredibly ineffective weapons in close quarters. It would have been much more ridiculous if those Unsullied handily defeated all of their attackers.

I for one think the Unsullied are pretty overrated as is, and I think this episode spoke to that a little bit. Unfailing obedience and a resistance to pain don't really make much difference in a scenario like this, and the fact that they've received martial training from a young age isn't much different than any other boy who trained from a young age to be a knight, etc.

I can buy the SoTH being able to take down Unsullied, absolutely. They were only in groups of 2-3 and were unprepared, plus this isn't their style of fighting, they can't really use their spears in the enclosed spaces they were attacked in. IMO this was fine.

What upset me was the idea that the 10 or so unarmed Sons of the Harpy could take on an armoured and sword-weilding Ser Grandfather. Even in his sixties, Selmy can take on the entire kingsguard, take down a group of gold cloaks when he was initially completely unarmed, and he can kill effortlessly with just a wooden pole. The Selmy of the books should have won that fight, he should have cut down 10 men armed only with daggers like they were nothing. The men didn't even attack in a group of 10, they came at him in smaller groups.

I understand WHY they killed him, I understand Barristan may well eventually go down to one person who he easily could have beaten in a dual, but it just really irked me that THE Barristan Selmy, the greatest living knight and one of the finest fighters in the world, would go down to a small group of untrained noblemen armed only with daggers when he had armour and a sword. Just did not ring true.

At least he got his wish though, which was to die in combat with his sword in his hand.

[robasp2]

Sons of the Harpy could take on an armoured and sword-weilding Ser Grandfather. Even in his sixties, Selmy can take on the entire kingsguard, take down a group of gold cloaks.

The Selmy of the books should have won that fight.

THE Barristan Selmy, the greatest living knight and one of the finest fighters in the world, would go down to a small group of untrained noblemen armed only with daggers when he had armour and a sword. Just did not ring true.

He was unarmored. He did not even wear chain mail. Look at Selmy in S1 , that was armor, thick metal plates. Only that can fend off dagger pokes.

Or maybe like the hound wore, metal affixed into clothes in small rectangular pieces.

Old ser was unarmored. Yet he goes straight to the fight instead of calling for backup. That is boldness and maybe why he is called Barristan the bold.

Old people loose their talent over time, especially if it is raw physical strength.

An old powerlifter cannot lift at 60 the same way of his 20s. Same goes with a martial arts fighter, a boxer etc. They may still be badass but not as much as their young self.

Anyway SoTH , were all around him. When he dug his sword into one, another pokes him from behind. When he tries to deal with that one two poke him from both sides. He is clearly outnumbered.

Let me try an analogy :)

What will you do if say only 5 honeybees attack you. You have this electric swatter. If you wore protective clothing, you could easily fry them one by one and not bother as they sting your protection.

But, if you are naked and you decide to take them, you are in trouble :)

Same thing with Selmy. He maybe the legendary fighter of the 7 kingdoms. But in the wrong circumstances at this age... This must happen.

Guerilla warfare is very effective. Armys even today fail miserably to them. So I dont need to explain unsullied.

[Red Tiger]

^This man is correct. If Barry was armored he would have come out of that fight with maybe a flesh-wound, saying "Book Barristan would have won!" is utterly ridiculous.

[The Bear]

^This man is correct. If Barry was armored he would have come out of that fight with maybe a flesh-wound, saying "Book Barristan would have won!" is utterly ridiculous.

Okay, I thought he was wearing armor. My bad.

I still think book Barristan wouldn't have sustained those wounds. It doesn't matter that he's sixty, because throughout the books we're given many examples of him winning fights against superior opponents (gold cloaks, for instance) while he wasn't wearing armor or carrying a sword (granted, he appropriates a sword from the gold cloaks, but he had to disarm a man to get it). That happened at the same age he is now, so I don't need to guess his current abilities because we've seen them.

At any rate, even if I do believe book Barristan would win that fight this wasn't book Barristan so it doesn't matter. I was just saying, I would expect the Barristan we see described in the books to win that fight.