[BOOK SPOILERS] Discussing Sansa XVI - Back at home...

[Winter Rose Crown]

From the books -- I don't understand the "thing with the dogs" Jeyne refers to when the spearwives show up to save her. Someone said something about the dogs raping her but all of Ramsey's dogs are bitches (female -- named after the women he has hunted). Maybe it was left unsaid because it was so horrible.

I think the point of Jeyne was to give a full, clear view of how absolutely insane Ramsey is. That wedding night scene was worse than anything Joffrey ever did. I think they will use Sansa to show that to the viewers and then she will escape with Theon and ride to the wall. I thought she would Take Alys Karstark's place and beg Jon to give her someone to marry but if she's married to Ramsey then that can't pan out.

IMO -- crackpot theory here -- Sansa hasn't had any wolf dreams like the other Stark children because Lady died so early. I think Ramsey will rape her and try to use the dogs in some sick way and she will unconsciously tap into her skin changing / warg powers and take over one and use it to kill Ramsey. She then runs like hell with Theon and Roose sends the pink letter to The Wall.

[Lord Damian]

Right now I'm just detaching myself from the scene until I see it play out just getting too depressing and again how much flesh does someone have to give up for being naive.

As far as Sophie being as good as her partners that goes for all actors, obviously she is doing a bang up job because other professionals are calling for her.

she i think will be the biggest break out star of a game of thrones when we look back at it years from now. No doubt in my mind. She has the look and is very, very photogenic. She also has the desire for it.

[Alayne's Shadow.]

she i think will be the biggest break out star of a game of thrones when we look back at it years from now. No doubt in my mind. She has the look and is very, very photogenic. She also has the desire for it.

I agree. She's got the ability, the look and the desire. Kit, Emilia, Maisie and Richard are close, but I'm not betting man. If I was, I'd bet on Sophie and Richard, because they have just the right amount of screentime not to become their characters and to showcase their abilities. Emilia's become Dany, and Kit's Jon, in the same vein as Jennifer Aniston is Rachel.

[Winter Rose Crown]

LF's plan isn't about Sansa escaping Winterfell and throwing herself at Stannis mercy. It's about Sansa helping Stannis from the inside so when Stannis finishes the Boltons, he has no choice but to make her Wardeness of the North. It's a matter of bargaining power. If Sansa copipastes Book!Jeyne, then she'll have to dance at Stannis tune. While a Sansa that manages to tear the Boltons from the inside (say, by having Fat Walda killed and Ramsay implicated) is a Sansa who can negotiate with Stannis and his army of freezing sellswords from a more advantageous position.

And narratively speaking, the difference between the damsel in distress and the girl avenging her family with her wits is huge.

After Jon refused Stannis, he will still need to find a warden of the north. Everything Stannis said about the Starks holding Winterfell and the North rallying around them is still true. Once Sansa is free of the Boltons (one way or another and assuming Stannis lives through the fight), he will need Sansa as much as she needs him. He isn't saving her, it is a mutually beneficial arrangement.

[Colonel Green]

Well she has been in every single one so far. Only Jon can boast that as I remember. All they needed to do to get her in Jeyne's place is drop her off at Winterfell. There has been significantly more than that. Brienne's entire plot is about Sansa, Sansa was the recipient of the story of the Tourney of Harrenhal but I guess it had to be someone, there is the smallfolk plot that doesn't exist in the book which seems to be the new Northern Conspiracy and the rivalry between Myranda and Jeyne. Its really quite fleshed out. Don't get me wrong, I'm glad. I'm suspicious about the long game. Sansa has no story left and so gets 8-10 episodes this year and more than others with actual story.

There are five actors, at present, who've been in all five (Turner, Dinklage, Harrington, Bradley, and Dillane) -- but the writers don't really pay attention to the "all episodes" thing (beyond pacing issues), otherwise Dinklage would always be in ten out of ten. She's in all five so far because the writers had to move her from the Vale to Winterfell, also have her meet Brienne to jumpstart Brienne's subplot, and then actually get into the Northern storyline and its supposed justifications for her being there.

Brienne was supposedly looking for Sansa in the books, but more to the point, her reformatted story isn't about elevating Sansa, it's about giving Brienne something to do after the show has cut her solo plot as well. Which also, in a knock-on effect, allows them to cut Mance Rayder and simplify that plot even more.

The smallfolk, so far, don't appear to be anything other than a plot device to allow Brienne to contact Sansa.

The entire conceit around the Arya meets Arya theory is that Arya is becoming no one. Its a play on identity. They have done away with that 'Fake Arya takes Arya's identity as Arya becomes no one' angle and its less interesting as a result.

I agree it's less interesting and not nearly as thematically appropriate, but the show has never let that stop them before, has it? I expect, if that's what they do, the show's version will just be about Arya actually meeting another member of her family again (though, depending on how the "two Aryas" meeting actually goes in the book, it's not clear how exactly those two things would map onto each other).

[cgf]

I am curious just how brienne's storyline plays out. With the actor who plays Pod's musical talent I have to imagine that BriePod take over for Abel and the Washer women to get into the castle and let Brienne do what she does...end up having to kill some folks because she has no common sense...though I don't think they will have the escape happen until Stannis is already at winterfell's gates, because Sansa staying in WF to make things easier for Stannis to conquer it is her and LF's plan. So if we get the escape I see it happening when they're already under siege and Sansa senses the desperation in the castle and tries something that back fires.

Just an observation I find interesting, in terms of Sansa's reactions/behavior. Although Walda is a Frey, Sansa doesn't seem to direct any vengeful feelings toward her. Maybe because Walda is so out to lunch about the whole thing or simply because Sansa doesn't hold a Frey female responsible like she does Roose, who actually stabbed Robb. Or simple because Walda is 'outranked' by villains far more dastardly.

Yep, it's a nice departure from the "kill all freys" of LSH that I particularly liked with the contrast of Sansa wearing the clothes that evoke her mother.

That or maybe Walda's just too adorable, as even Ramsay only seems to hate the sons she can give Roose rather than plump Walda herself.

I'm not quite sure I agree with that. She's shared scenes with Aidan where she's great and he's his usual raspy self.

*shrug* The voice has been silly and he makes that weird face sometimes that's odd, but also makes some sense as a neutral mask for him to hide behind that's odd but only gives away that he doesn't want to give anything away, which characters should expect from LF so even the weird face he sometimes makes I can get around. Plus I actually think his mannerisms and expressions have been quite good in much of the show when he's not leaning on that face and doing weird things to his voice. The LF and Varys scenes, for examlpe, are still some of my favorites from the whole series; he was great opposite the Ned; him talking to Roz was a strong scene and performance; and in the WF crypts the other week he really brought it. The man can act, but he's tried a few things with this character that just haven't worked.

[Nefertari]

Based on what the story seems to lead us is that Sansa, an inexperienced maiden is supposed to put some real sweetness on Ramsay that he will be her dog on a leash. Now. who knows?

So you think that Theon is crying because in front of his eyes there is a sweet romantic scene( i don't know..Sansa singing a lullaby to Ramsay) and he's moved by it?

You REALLY believe it or it's just wishful thinking?

Sansa had no idea that Ramsay was Joffrey on steroids when she agreed to marry him.

The recapped.com says that Ramsay "deflowers" Sansa, which doesn't necessarily mean rape...BUT from what we know of TV Sansa's disgust in 5x05 for Ramsay, TV Ramsay enjoying causing emotional pain to Sansa in 5x05, Alfie Allen's comments about a controversial, "messed-up" scene, Iwan Rheon's comments about having to psych himself up to play a certain scene (when he's played numerous consensual sex scenes in the past), and Sophie Turner's comments about a " super traumatic" scene that was difficult for crew members to watch, I don't think this is going to be anything like an awkward but consensual sex scene. It's going to be emotionally brutal if not graphically violent, and it's going to be rape.

Of course, given the writing for Cersei last year, I expect Sansa to bounce back from this like it's no big deal.

I am glad that Alfie Allen and Sophie Turner are sharing scenes. My observation of Sophie Turner is that she's only as good as her scene partners, and I think Alfie Allen is amazing as Theon.

Sansa didn't know, but LF knew, so this is a hint for understanding just how much he cares for Sansa(nothing).

He played her like he played the viewers, making her believe that he cared for her more than a body to sell to the best offer...while in effect that's exactly what she is for him.

About the scene, as i said i expect a rape, probably not a "violent" scene(no screams or stuff like that), but a sad one, she probably will submit without a word, Ramsay will "use" her .

If there is nudity it will be Ramsay's of course.

[Nilan8888]

Brienne was supposedly looking for Sansa in the books, but more to the point, her reformatted story isn't about elevating Sansa, it's about giving Brienne something to do after the show has cut her solo plot as well. Which also, in a knock-on effect, allows them to cut Mance Rayder and simplify that plot even more.

The smallfolk, so far, don't appear to be anything other than a plot device to allow Brienne to contact Sansa.

Arguably, one could say the same thing about Brienne's plot from the books given it was late in the game when it was realized a jump-ahead of five years was not going to work.

Brienne's plot from the books was not going to work on the TV show. Many would argue it didn't work in the books either.

[robasp2]

Guys some clarification please.

Sansa does not know Rickon and Bran are alive. Why isnt she mad at Thron then?

Ok, Roose killed her broother and mother, and Ramsey tells her she disciplined Theon for "killing starks" (He cant discipline his dad)

We know its all bullshit coz we are third person. But in this episode, she has too much sympathy to "murderer" Theon, finds Roose to be much better than Ramsey.

Why?

Confused

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

There are five actors, at present, who've been in all five (Turner, Dinklage, Harrington, Bradley, and Dillane) -- but the writers don't really pay attention to the "all episodes" thing (beyond pacing issues), otherwise Dinklage would always be in ten out of ten. She's in all five so far because the writers had to move her from the Vale to Winterfell, also have her meet Brienne to jumpstart Brienne's subplot, and then actually get into the Northern storyline and its supposed justifications for her being there.

Brienne was supposedly looking for Sansa in the books, but more to the point, her reformatted story isn't about elevating Sansa, it's about giving Brienne something to do after the show has cut her solo plot as well. Which also, in a knock-on effect, allows them to cut Mance Rayder and simplify that plot even more.

The smallfolk, so far, don't appear to be anything other than a plot device to allow Brienne to contact Sansa.

I agree it's less interesting and not nearly as thematically appropriate, but the show has never let that stop them before, has it? I expect, if that's what they do, the show's version will just be about Arya actually meeting another member of her family again (though, depending on how the "two Aryas" meeting actually goes in the book, it's not clear how exactly those two things would map onto each other).

Tyrion isn't doing much either. Like we are checking in with him travelling about and having some witty one liners. Stannis and Sam are for Jon's story and he's also been pushed a lot because we know how he ends this year. I wouldn't be surprised if Stannis ends the year in the same way.

If Sansa goes to Braavos that would basically mean Sansa having to tag along in Arya's plot. Because I don't think Jeyne is coming back if she goes there. I don't think that butterfly effect would work for either of them.

[Nilan8888]

Sansa does not know Rickon and Bran are alive. Why isnt she mad at Thron then?

Because it's one thing to see the man that killed your brother as he was as you remember him, or when he killed your brother. It's another thing to see him now already punished on your behalf, a shell of a human being, obviously tortured and brainwashed. That can take the retribution urge out of a lot of people.

This isn't to say she's still not mad at Theon or has forgiven him: just that it's more complex than that. Not everyone is going to see someone they hated broken down like that and feel just as mad as they had previously.

We know its all bullshit coz we are third person. But in this episode, she has too much sympathy to "murderer" Theon, finds Roose to be much better than Ramsey.

I don't think it's necessarily the case that she has sympathy for him yet, but even so it's possible to just see him and have that be your gut instinct. Frankly when she first saw him, I think she didn't know what to feel.

As for finding Roose better than Ramsey, I don't think that's the case so much that Ramsey is who she has to deal with, and Roose has power over Ramsey.

[Colonel Green]

If Sansa goes to Braavos that would basically mean Sansa having to tag along in Arya's plot. Because I don't think Jeyne is coming back if she goes there. I don't think that butterfly effect would work for either of them.

You mean as in, Jeyne is killed by Arya? I doubt it.

Like I said, though, we really don't know how a "two Aryas" meeting would go, or what the effect is, so overall compatibility can't really be judged. It just crossed my mind as a possibility.

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

You mean as in, Jeyne is killed by Arya? I doubt it.

Like I said, though, we really don't know how a "two Aryas" meeting would go, or what the effect is, so overall compatibility can't really be judged. It just crossed my mind as a possibility.

Jeyne won't return to Westeros when there is the safety of Braavos and that is if she isn't so tortured she asks for 'The Gift'

[Colonel Green]

Jeyne won't return to Westeros when there is the safety of Braavos and that is if she isn't so tortured she asks for 'The Gift'

If Arya's going back North to help out with the war, Sansa can go with her, even if Jeyne isn't (I doubt the "gift" scenario, just because that kind of renders Theon's ADWD storyline pointless). Or they can go their separate ways to accomplish other stuff, I suppose.

[Thats_So_Craven]

Honestly the only thing that gives me hope at this point is the quote from Sophie Turner's recent EW interview: "It's definitely a dark season for [sansa]. She just escaped King's Landing, and she goes back to a place where she becomes somewhat of a prisoner again. Despite being a prisoner again, she plays it out very differently this time compared to before. She tries to take command and begins to manipulate the people who are keeping her prisoner-- which is nice."

[NymeriaWarriorQueen]

Honestly the only thing that gives me hope at this point is the quote from Sophie Turner's recent EW interview: "It's definitely a dark season for [sansa]. She just escaped King's Landing, and she goes back to a place where she becomes somewhat of a prisoner again. Despite being a prisoner again, she plays it out very differently this time compared to before. She tries to take command and begins to manipulate the people who are keeping her prisoner-- which is nice."

Bring it on! Anxious fan are salivating for Sansa to make good on what ST said!

[Thats_So_Craven]

^ TheFirstofHerName I know! I was torn between rooting for Sansa Snark this episode and being like "Wait wait wait you're blowing it!!"

[Newstar]

Honestly the only thing that gives me hope at this point is the quote from Sophie Turner's recent EW interview: "It's definitely a dark season for [sansa]. She just escaped King's Landing, and she goes back to a place where she becomes somewhat of a prisoner again. Despite being a prisoner again, she plays it out very differently this time compared to before. She tries to take command and begins to manipulate the people who are keeping her prisoner-- which is nice."

Sophie Turner's comments about Sansa's arc this season have already been proven to be misleading--talking about using her sexuality to manipulate Littlefinger, for one--so I don't know how much stock we can place in those comments. I wouldn't have paid much attention to her super traumatic scene comment if it weren't for Alfie and Iwan making similar comments about an extreme scene.

[Colonel Green]

Honestly the only thing that gives me hope at this point is the quote from Sophie Turner's recent EW interview: "It's definitely a dark season for [sansa]. She just escaped King's Landing, and she goes back to a place where she becomes somewhat of a prisoner again. Despite being a prisoner again, she plays it out very differently this time compared to before. She tries to take command and begins to manipulate the people who are keeping her prisoner-- which is nice."

Sophie, like any good PR person for the show, has always been game about trying to put a positive spin on whatever the writers give her to do (see, e.g., her attempts to represent the godawful writing Sansa got in season 3 as Sansa growing as a character/player), so I'll have to wait and see on that.

[mirthula]

So you think that Theon is crying because in front of his eyes there is a sweet romantic scene( i don't know..Sansa singing a lullaby to Ramsay) and he's moved by it?

You REALLY believe it or it's just wishful thinking?

Sansa didn't know, but LF knew, so this is a hint for understanding just how much he cares for Sansa(nothing).

He played her like he played the viewers, making her believe that he cared for her more than a body to sell to the best offer...while in effect that's exactly what she is for him.

About the scene, as i said i expect a rape, probably not a "violent" scene(no screams or stuff like that), but a sad one, she probably will submit without a word, Ramsay will "use" her .

If there is nudity it will be Ramsay's of course.

yeah i told this before rape doesn't always have to be violent. physically sansa can't fight off ramsay the moment she sees reek in the room and understands what ramsay wants she will know this is the worst that could happen to her and this is joffrey all over again but million times worst. but she will submit to it and it will be rape of her soul because she can't go running out of the room screaming because no one is going to save her. she might even look at theon with teary eyes to save her that is why poor theon is crying too because he can't help her.

i think some of the spoilers are out saying that sansa will confront an old friend, it could be theon she confronts they grew up together they must have had some bond like brother sister or friends, he was part of her family for years her father raised him like a son but he stood there and let ramsay take her and watched it happen and murdered her brothers ruined her family. but i think sansa is going to see theon not acknowledge anything he is mentally reek now she might see that theon is just a lost soul and there is no use hating him, the man theon she hates is dead. that is when sansa will stand tall enough is enough and find a way to escape and take theon with her.