[BOOK SPOILERS] Discussing Sansa XVI - Back at home...

[Lady Lovisa]

If Theon is crying while watching what is going on and it's "traumatic," I'm going to assume there's some violence involved. Could Sansa accept her fate with the assumption it's her wedding night and she'll lose her virginity? Sure. But I don't think she'll be prepared for his tendencies and that she'll likely get smacked around regardless of her acquiescence. That will be really horrible. Where is Littlefinger or someone like Olenna for Sansa? Olenna couldn't bear to see her granddaughter subjected to Joffrey so she took him down before any bedding took place. I wish there was someone there for Sansa. Or Sansa could take control of her circumstances herself. But, at the end of the day, she is being pimped out in the off-chance this plan of Littlefingers will work.

I really hate how this is going down. What was the point of having Goth Sansa walk down the stairs at the end of Season IV like she was some playa only to have her abused and humiliated worse than when she was at King's Landing? If she gets revenge in the end, it's worth being victimized? Oh, finally Sansa is a player in the Game of Thrones, said every article after the Season 4 finale! She'll be manipulating everyone with the lessons she's learned from Littlefinger. Really? Because I haven't seen any of that. I haven't seen Sansa use her sexuality to manipulate Littlefinger either and that was something Sophie Turner said herself, although I imagine she might not have had all scripts all the time. In fact, it seems like Sansa and Littlefinger barely even spoke to each other this season, and they're supposed to be some sort of "tag team."

I think this is really the cheap way for Sansa to make her claim and seek revenge. The dumbest plan ever. What would stop the Boltons from turning her over to the Lannisters while Littlefinger is away? That would solidfy their claim on the North more than anything. All along I thought Sansa would be manipulating Littlefinger but she just blindly went along with what he wanted. I really don't think she has any other plan in mind. It would be great if she was ahead of the game the entire time. But not holding my breath.

:agree:

I'm a Sansa fan and I've been preparing myself for the worst to happen.... I just can't. If there's really a rape scene, I'll have to switch off the telly and cry in the corner of my room and I'm not even exaggerating.

[Woman of War]

Well, I am a Shireen fan. Guess what might be waiting for me. Will this stop the show from showing it?

[Colonel Green]

I'm really confused as to who this "old friend" Sansa confronts is. Is that supposed to happen in episode 8? Anyway, I don't think it'll be Theon, and I don't think it'll be Littlefinger either. I really don't see him getting out of King's Landing in one episode. Perhaps he gets tied up trying to get Cersei in trouble with the Faith Militant?

I'm trying to think who else it could be and I'm honestly stumped. I guess it could MAYBE be Pod, but wouldn't really consider him an "old friend" of Sansa's. They were civil with each other, but to me they were just aqquaintences.

I'm 99% sure it's Theon, and the difference in wording between the blurbs for episodes 7 and 8 is that the same guy wrote them at the same time and therefore switched up his terminology to avoid seeming repetitive.

[Grail King]

Rory McCann won't be in this series and we do not know if he will ever show up again.

In the books Martin created a cute little story of Pod being infatuated with Sansa, something they left out in the show.

I don't remember that part, which book or chapter I would expect it in a Tyrion chapter.

I think I found it.

A Storm of Swords, Chapter 38, Tyrion V.

Actually Sansa Chapter 59.

[Woman of War]

I don't remember that part, which book or chapter I would expect it in a Tyrion chapter.

I think I found it.

A Storm of Swords, Chapter 38, Tyrion V.

Actually Sansa Chapter 59.

It's in ASOS, when Tyrion jokes about Pod being so awkward and blushing in Sansa's presence and can't look at her, always looks down . "Some day he'll confess (whatever, don't remember) to your shoes"

It's cute, really, and quite touching how Tyrion realized it. But sorry, I do not remember the exact chapter. But it's one of those gems within all the grisly stuff.

But you have found it yourself

[Alayne's Shadow.]

Well, I am a Shireen fan. Guess what might be waiting for me. Will this stop the show from showing it?

Well, although It won't stop the show from showing her death, I would understand if you chose not to see it. Anyone can do whatever they want. I'm not putting myself through this episode, as my own choice.

[Lady Lovisa]

Well, I am a Shireen fan. Guess what might be waiting for me. Will this stop the show from showing it?

Your point is? If Sansa's raped and Shireen's burnt, I can go cry in my corner, and you in yours.

Well, although It won't stop the show from showing her death, I would understand if you chose not to see it. Anyone can do whatever they want. I'm not putting myself through this episode, as my own choice.

Exactly.

--

On a side note, I wonder how Cersei would react to the news of Sansa being in Winterfell, and what she would do to LF when he's in King's Landing. LF would probably convince her that Sansa is a fake - one of his girls from the brothels - and that is the best way to pacify the Northerners and guarantee their support (although I think wedding their late lord's daughter to her family's murderers would further incite their rage). And I doubt Cersei would let it pass so easily. Thoughts?

[Woman of War]

Your point is? If Sansa's raped and Shireen's burnt, I can go cry in my corner, and you in yours.

My point is that Martin will not spare a character just because we like her, not even young girls.

But whatever horrible things happen to Sansa - she will still be alve after that (I guess), she would still have a story . But if Shireen gets burned her story would be over.

[Newstar]

I'm 99% sure it's Theon, and the difference in wording between the blurbs for episodes 7 and 8 is that the same guy wrote them at the same time and therefore switched up his terminology to avoid seeming repetitive.

If I had to guess, I'd guess Theon, too. "Confronts" sounds like Sansa has beef with the person in question, and if Theon (to her knowledge) murdered her brothers and then proceeds to stand by and watch while she's brutally raped by Ramsay, I'm guessing she'll have a bone to pick with the person in question.

[Ser Pounce FTW]

If I had to guess, I'd guess Theon, too. "Confronts" sounds like Sansa has beef with the person in question, and if Theon (to her knowledge) murdered her brothers and then proceeds to stand by and watch while she's brutally raped by Ramsay, I'm guessing she'll have a bone to pick with the person in question.

Yes, all indicators point to Theon. She has unfinished business with him on behalf of her family. I think it will be a great scene.

[NymeriaWarriorQueen]

What throws me for a loop is the new look show Sansa is sporting. The black crow/raven feathers in her dresses and the new necklace. Does it have a symbolic meaning for this arc of her story? The circular part at her neck reminds me a little of the shape of the prayer wheel Catelyn Stark made. The chain with the spike or needle at the end must be of importance too because she keeps fiddling with it. It is probably a weapon she will eventually use.

What do the black feathers mean? Maybe she will warg into a raven and claw a few eyes out. All the Stark children are suppose to have this ability although Bran is the only one the show has really focused on. Since Lady is gone.....so are her days of being a lady. Perhaps she will be a raven now.

[Grail King]

Well show runners and costume designers have said that Sansa's outfits have meaning, so symbolically:

Crows and Ravens:

Although crows and ravens are part of the same family (Corvus), they’re not exactly the same bird. Typically, ravens are quite a bit bigger than crows, and they tend to be a bit shaggier looking. The raven actually has more in common with hawks and other predatory birds than the standard, smaller-sized crow. In addition, although both birds have an impressive repertoire of calls and noises they make, the raven’s call is usually a bit deeper and more guttural sounding than that of the crow.

Both crows and ravens have appeared in a number of different mythologies throughout the ages. In some cases these black-feathered birds are considered an omen of bad tidings, but in others they may represent a message from the Divine. Here is some fascinating crow and raven folklore to ponder:

In Celtic mythology, the warrior goddess known as the Morrighan often appears in the form of a crow or raven, or is seen accompanied by a group of them. Typically, these birds appear in groups of three, and they are seen as a sign that the Morrighan is watching – or possibly getting ready to pay someone a visit.

In some tales of the Welsh myth cycle, the Mabinogion, the raven is a harbinger of death. Witches and sorcerers were believed to have the ability to transform themselves into ravens and fly away, thus enabling them to evade capture.

Crows sometimes appear as a method of divination. For the ancient Greeks, the crow was a symbol of Apollo in his role as god of prophecy. Augury – divination using birds – was popular among both the Greeks and the Romans, and augurs interpreted messages based on not only the color of a bird, but the direction from which it flew.

A crow flying in from the east or south was considered favorable.

The Native Americans often saw the raven as a trickster, much like Coyote. There are a number of tales regarding the mischief of Raven, who is sometimes seen as a symbol of transformation. In the legends of various tribes, Raven is typically associated with everything from the creation of the world to the gift of sunlight to mankind. Some tribes knew the raven as a stealer of souls.

For those who follow the Norse pantheon, Odin is often represented by the raven – usually a pair of them. Early artwork depicts him as being accompanied by two black birds, who are described in the Eddas as Huginn and Muinnin. Their names translate to “thought” and “memory”, and their job is to serve as Odin’s spies, bringing him news each night from the land of men.

In parts of the Appalachian mountains, a low-flying group of crows means that illness is coming – but if a crow flies over a house and calls three times, that means an impending death in the family. If the crows call in the morning before the other birds get a chance to sing, it’s going to rain. Despite their role as messengers of doom and gloom, it’s bad luck to kill a crow. If you accidentally do so, you’re supposed to bury it – and be sure to wear black when you do!

Even within the Christian religion, ravens hold a special significance. While they are referred to as “unclean” within the Bible, Genesis tells us that after the flood waters receded, the raven was the first bird Noah sent out from the ark to find land. Also, in the Hebrew Talmud, ravens are credited with teaching mankind how to deal with death; when Cain slew Abel, a raven showed Adam and Eve how to bury the body, because they had never done so before.

Also if the necklace is worn a certain way you can see a hidden "S"

Since GRRM lives in New Mexico I like this part.

ETA: forgot link: http://paganwiccan.about.com/od/othermagicspells/p/The-Magic-Of-Crows-And-Ravens.htm

[Rhaenys' kitten]

Littlefinger thinks she is his little mockingbird.

[Grail King]

Littlefinger thinks she is his little mockingbird.

Hopefully the joke is on him.

[NymeriaWarriorQueen]

ETA: forgot link: http://paganwiccan.about.com/od/othermagicspells/p/The-Magic-Of-Crows-And-Ravens.htm

Thanks for the link. It is just difficult to discern whether Sansa as a raven or crow ( don't know which) bodes well for her in the end.

[nationalanthem91]

I'm 99% sure it's Theon, and the difference in wording between the blurbs for episodes 7 and 8 is that the same guy wrote them at the same time and therefore switched up his terminology to avoid seeming repetitive.

I can see where that'd be possible. The only thing that doesn't make sense to me is this: in episode 7, the synopsis says "Sansa tried to talk to Theon", meaning obviously that she attempts to speak to him about whatever; "tries" insinuates that either she's unable to carry out what she wanted to do, or Theon is difficult and doesn't want to listen to what she has to say out of fear.

My problem is is that I'm not sure she would just go right back to him the very next episode and "confront" him if he's still unwilling to listen because it could very well be a waste of time. I don't know, I wouldn't mind if it was Theon, but it would just be a little weird to me. I'd actually like for it to be Varys (unlikely) or even Tyrion (completely unlikely and just wishful thinking on your part LOL.)

Did any of that make sense? I swear it sounded more clear when I was thinking about it in my head.

[Lord Damian]

My point is that Martin will not spare a character just because we like her, not even young girls.

But whatever horrible things happen to Sansa - she will still be alve after that (I guess), she would still have a story . But if Shireen gets burned her story would be over.

Well, Right now, Martin is not in control of their show fates. This crap we are freaking out over is all D&D and Cogman.

[Tanacetum Vulgare]

Roose is shaping up to be the character I enjoy the most.

Seriously, time in both books and show is a secondary concern to narrative drive and themes. You need to be less strict on age and time as concepts to enjoy this saga.

This probably isn't the thread for it, but I'm really enjoying Michael McElhatton's performance so far this season. I mean, he's always been great, but suddenly he's the closest he's ever been to book!Roose for me. The way book!Roose is supposed to speak softly but be so creepy and threatening at the same time.

As for character age, I refuse to guess anyone's age until Gilly's poor baby starts at least crawling. This is getting ridiculous.

[starklover]

This probably isn't the thread for it, but I'm really enjoying Michael McElhatton's performance so far this season. I mean, he's always been great, but suddenly he's the closest he's ever been to book!Roose for me. The way book!Roose is supposed to speak softly but be so creepy and threatening at the same time.

As for character age, I refuse to guess anyone's age until Gilly's poor baby starts at least crawling. This is getting ridiculous.

he's doing a great job. he's a very creepy character. you have no idea what he's thinking.

[Brav]

I think Kill the Boy set up a way forward for Sansa to manipulate the Boltons. Ramsay showed his vulnerability to her over his position as heir and Roose showed his impatience over Ramsay's behaviour. They are two dangerous men. Surely she can sow doubt and mistrust between them. The only thing is there's only four episodes to go so little time to do it.