Margaery incrimination too easy?

[Ser Knute]

I think on some levels the show makes some changes out of necessity but on some others I think they're deliberately changing things to preserve some book material.

Think about it, in almost every major plot, everything is going as it does in the books, excepting for Sansa and Jaime. Both of their manufactured/combined arcs will leave them in the same position as the end of ADWD does but also allows for the show to divert the arcs enough that some material isn't even spoiled.

Before this season started and you got a look at the Episode titles, would you have predicted a Battle of Ice or Battle of Fire? I did. Now it seems we may not get either but if we even get one of those, they'll be fundamentally different because there's no Freys, no Manderleys, no GNC and in Jaime's case, well we know he spends all of his ADWD time dealing with the Riverlands so nothing going on there is going to surpass the books by the end of the season. Same for Jon, Dany, Stannis, Tyrion and Jorah.

I agree with the sentiment that when changes are necessary they should be tracked better and fleshed out more.

Margaery being held on perjury HAD to happen, but without Kettleblacks and her late-night pillow parties with her handmaidens and their suitors, how else is the show to arrest Margaery? Well surely they could've came up with something better, which is the main point that people make, it's not the changes per se', it's the logic around the changes and the quality of the change versus the source. The Sand Snakes have been a huge miss in that regard.

I felt her perjuring herself was out of character for her; Margaery is much more adept as a character in the books for that; but since the show has cut the Kettleblacks I can see this as a way to have her incarcerated. Remember too that even in the books, it's less likely that Margaery will have to do the walk of shame than it was for Cersei. Does Lena Headey have a no-nudity clause? While I'm sure the show has something in mind for Cersei when her comeuppance is due, I do feel that this is crucial to Cersei's character and I'll be disappointed if Margaery has to make that walk because of contracts rather than artistic reasons. But there again, the show set itself up for that already by having the former HS have a naked walk of shame of his own; now they're bound to have that in the scene when it could've been cut and their public disgrace considered enough of a point to leave it at that.

It is what it is. When we finally stop diverging for reasons related to the medium and get back closer to the source material I fully expect the series to finish off strong, but in the middle here it feels a bit muddy, but we're troopers, keep marching on! Some of the decisions have been poorly thought out or executed regarding the changes, but all in all, I still think they're doing a pretty good job. It will be cool to analyze things at the end and maybe see why certain changes were done, or maybe we'll even get admissions from the show as to why this or that was done.

[Attitude]

I guess in a real life situation a judge wouldn’t decide on keeping margeary and/or loras in custody because there isn’t enough evidence that makes it very likely that the accusations against Loras are through nor that margeary is a liar. But I do think there is enough evidence for them to start a investigation. Loras’ reaction on Olyvars statement should say enough. If Loras was for sure he lied and he didn’t have anything to worry about, he wouldn’t have gotten angry but just called him a liar. Getting angry and trying to attack him didn’t help his credibility.

Oh, and why does should a statement from a noble be considered higher in any way in the eyes of the gods (and the high sparrow) Pretty sure they don’t care whether you’re a heir of a great house or a squire, in the eyes of the gods you’re the same. So Olyvers statement is as strong as Loras’. However, for convict Loras for anything, they will need more evidence for sure.

[ummester]

Wait, does anyone doubt that was a kangaroo court set up by the High Sparrow to behead the government of the Seven Kingdoms? Of course the procedure is idiotic. It's not meant to be a fair trial.

Well, I think set up by Cersie, who is under the illusion that the High Sparrow is on her side when he isn't.

Don't forget, right back in the first episode, Lancel tried to atone for his sins with Cerise and she rejected him. No doubt the High Sparrow is aware of that, with Lancel being so devout. Lancel probably went to the high Sparrow for forgiveness after he was rejected by Cerise.

And, all that they established was that there is enough reason to go to a full trial. Margery and Loras have not yet been convicted in the Eyes of the 7.

[Attitude]

And, all that they established was that there is enough reason to go to a full trial. Margery and Loras have not yet been convicted in the Eyes of the 7.

Agreed. This is a big point that I missed so far in this thread.

[Nobody of the canals]

I wondered if they skipped the adultery, torture-induced confessions, etc to avoid any resemblance to The Tudors, especially considering Natalie Dormer's playing Margery. But meh, then why cast Dormer in the first place? They could have at least insinuated some kind of a three-way between Loras, Margery and Olyvar (since she was around), to up the ante and foreshadow some of the Cersei troubles coming up, but they decided to go for perjury, which I found quite underwhelming, especially when it's clearly a he-said-she-said, like so many people point out.

What's the punishment for perjury, even if she's found guilty in her trial? Definitely not death?

I have no idea why Olyvar the male prostitute was smirking all along during the inquest - considering he was actually admitting to an activity that the Faith Militant were running around punishing by death. It's not even like the FM pity the prostitutes and let them off the hook, and he definitely can't claim to have been a victim considering he was actually in an administrative position of some sort in LF's brothels.

[Guess who's back]

The Spanish Inquisition actually gave fair trials. Well, as fair as they could be, considering the subject matter.

WHAT?!! Tell that to those people that were killed for witchcraft.

brb lets drown her, if she survives she is a witch. If she doesn't then that's that.

[Balerion the one eared cat]

Agree with everyone. So many gaping plot holes, characters being useless (ie. Tommen), things not making sense.

I'm struggling to figure out what Olyvar gains from betraying Loras, if he's supposedly Littlefinger's creature. Surely he's going to receive the same punishment as Loras?

Very weak accusations against Margaery - lying to the Faith, with only one witness, doesn't seem enough to imprison the Queen. Adultery and high treason, definitely; protecting your brother, not so much.

Also, how is this going to bring about Cersei's imprisonment? The thing I loved about Cersei's storyline in AFFC was that everything that happens to her is her own fault - she flippantly allows the Faith to rearm, not thinking of any possible consequences; she then sends Osney to seduce Margaery, thinking she's the most fiendish player to walk the 7K, and it backfires in her face when the allegations turn on her. She's the orchestrator of her own destruction, and it's brilliant. Now I just feel like she's catching a lucky break, and it's all just happening around her and she's benefitting, rather than her playing an active role in destroying herself. Where's the power-mad, thinks-she's-so-cunning, batcrap crazy Cersei we all know and love?!

[The hairy bear]

I wondered if they skipped the adultery, torture-induced confessions, etc to avoid any resemblance to The Tudors, especially considering Natalie Dormer's playing Margery. But meh, then why cast Dormer in the first place?

This is an interesting thought, and I could imagine something like that crossing the writer's head. Most non-readers would immediately make the connection, and it could harm the viewing experience.

I've always thought that it was a mistake to age up Margaery and cast Dormer. She is a great actress, but custing such a great actress forced the writers to expand her role unnaturally. Also, it took away interesting dynamics with Sansa, Joffrey and Cersei that aging up the character made impossible. It would have been much more interesting to keep guessing whether behind the veil of innocence there was a cunning player, or she was really the young candid girl that she seemed. The similarities between her character and Boleyn didn't help.

[Attitude]

What's the punishment for perjury, even if she's found guilty in her trial? Definitely not death?

Can't imagine that.

Where's the power-mad, thinks-she's-so-cunning, batcrap crazy Cersei we all know and love?!

Yes, missing that part too. At this point it feels like everything is working out for Cersei, where in the books, we already got some subtle hints about things about to backfire on her ass.

This is an interesting thought, and I could imagine something like that crossing the writer's head. Most non-readers would immediately make the connection, and it could harm the viewing experience.

Not really. How many viewers also saw the tudor? Not the majority is my guess.

[Zombies That Were Promised]

K.

...care to expand on that and add to the discussion?

Sure! The Faith Militant are batshit insane, they are after all of the high lords, but mainly Cersei. It's all theater. They're making up laws and the severity of crimes as they go. "False testimony is as grave a sin as any, my lady." They have been written in the show to be an omnipotent presence in King's Landing (able to walk up to the high walls of the Red Keep in order to arrest Loras). Loras's hearing being in 5x06 is definitely a callback to Tyrion's farce of a trial being in 4x06.

[Ted Chang]

For me the whole thing felt terribly rushed. I appreciate that the show is tight for time but I could do without Grey Worm's love life if they want a few more minutes. As has been said, any squire can expect to see his lord in the buff at some point, and Margaery's evidence is flimsy to say the least. Of course we are meant to be seeing religious nutjobs in action, and I guess that was the point. As for Tommen... who hadn't already got the message that he is some way past indecisive?

[Antler's Fury]

Shouldn't the kings guard have acted without tommens approval though? I mean aren't they sworn to protect the queen as well?

He explicitly signaled them not to with his hand.

[Dofs]

The whole trial was extremely stupid and wow, how pathetic Tommen was. It is really sad that the show made this to cross my mind:

Joffrey would have never allowed this!! :angry2:

[Ted Chang]

The whole trial was extremely stupid and wow, how pathetic Tommen was. It is really sad that the show made this to cross my mind:

Joffrey would have never allowed this!! :angry2:

That's rather the point. Tommen isn't going to be anybody's panacea for the woes of Westeros.

[+cassius]

People forgetting the evidence was weak af in the books too

[Winter's Knight]

WHAT?!! Tell that to those people that were killed for witchcraft.

brb lets drown her, if she survives she is a witch. If she doesn't then that's that.

Ehh.

The category "superstitions" includes trials related to witchcraft. The witch-hunt in Spain had much less intensity than in other European countries (particularly France, Scotland, and Germany). One remarkable case was that of Logroño, in which the witches of Zugarramurdi in Navarre were persecuted. During the auto-da-fé that took place in Logroño on November 7 and November 8, 1610, 6 people were burned and another 5 burned in effigy. In general, nevertheless, the Inquisition maintained a skeptical attitude towards cases of witchcraft, considering it as a mere superstition without any basis. Alonso de Salazar Frías, who, after the trials of Logroño took the Edict of Faith to various parts of Navarre, noted in his report to the Suprema that, "There were neither witches nor bewitched in a village until they were talked and written about".

[Winter's Knight]

Holy DP Batman.

[+cassius]

Loras charging at Olyvar gave it away too

[polythenehigh]

In the books she was arrested on the testimony of a Kings guard knight and the Grand Maester .. In the show one squire saying "she saw us once" is enough evidence to arrest a Queen.. Lora's as well should have pointed out that of course his squire had seen him naked, it was evidence of nothing!

Was just poor all round that scene.

[+cassius]

In the books she was arrested on the testimony of a Kings guard knight and the Grand Maester .. In the show one squire saying "she saw us once" is enough evidence to arrest a Queen.. Lora's as well should have pointed out that of course his squire had seen him naked, it was evidence of nothing!

Was just poor all round that scene.

She wasn't arrested cause she saw them tho