Margaery incrimination too easy?

[Tadco26]

It's remarkable that Margaery for all her scheming couldn't just convince Tommen to remove the Sparrow's right to bear arms. Unfortunately only Tommen's body was aged up and not his mind.

[Stonehearted Snake]

It's remarkable that Margaery for all her scheming couldn't just convince Tommen to remove the Sparrow's right to bear arms. Unfortunately only Tommen's body was aged up and not his mind.

I think the right to bear arms was tied into his failed meeting with the High Sparrow to get Loras released. They happened at the same time but Tommen was turned away and doesn't appear to have tried to meet him again. He probably figured he would be dismissed at the inquest as well and left it at that. Him holding back the King's Guard though when they tried to protest Margaery... Utter stupidity.

[Tadco26]

Point being if he wanted to remove their right to bear arms, he doesn't have to meet with them first. He is the king. Write a declaration and it is law.

Furthermore on the show there is no other threat than the Sparrows and Stannis. What are the Lannister and Tyrell armies doing? No mention of fighting in the Riverlands. No Greyjoys threatening the Tyrell lands. He might not be able to crush them with the King's Guard, but if Tommen gives the order then the combined Lannister/Tyrell armies should do the job just fine. If the Faith is more powerful than the Lannisters and Tyrells combined already, then why did they need to get the King's approval in the first place?

[Stonehearted Snake]

Point being if he wanted to remove their right to bear arms, he doesn't have to meet with them first. He is the king. Write a declaration and it is law.

Furthermore on the show there is no other threat than the Sparrows and Stannis. What are the Lannister and Tyrell armies doing? No mention of fighting in the Riverlands. No Greyjoys threatening the Tyrell lands. He might not be able to crush them with the King's Guard, but if Tommen gives the order then the combined Lannister/Tyrell armies should do the job just fine. If the Faith is more powerful than the Lannisters and Tyrells combined already, then why did they need to get the King's approval in the first place?

No disagreement here! I have all the same thoughts. Though I'm not sure just writing a declaration would actually have accomplished anything. The Sparrows really seem to have taken over KL.

[Tadco26]

They showed Gold Cloaks ignoring the sparrows actions earlier this season. Like I said the Tyrell/Lannister army should be more than enough to put the Sparrows down. Summon them before signing the order if need be. In the end if Tommen wanted the Faith to be disarmed, there is little reason to believe it shouldn't happen in the context of the show. They aren't dealing with resistance in the Riverlands, Greyjoy raiding, and complete incompetence by Cersei, and Tommen has no faculty to make his own decision on arming the faith at his age in the books. But because they want to keep part of the book story line it won't happen, even though the reasons it wouldn't happen in the book don't exist here. Which is where the writers tend to struggle in most of their original story lines. They change the circumstances but want to shoehorn in the same ending. They also could have minimized the problem of why doesn't Tommen do something, by not aging up Tommen in the first place, so Cersei is Queen Regent again.

[Stonehearted Snake]

They showed Gold Cloaks ignoring the sparrows actions earlier this season. Like I said the Tyrell/Lannister army should be more than enough to put the Sparrows down. Summon them before signing the order if need be. In the end if Tommen wanted the Faith to be disarmed, there is little reason to believe it shouldn't happen in the context of the show. They aren't dealing with resistance in the Riverlands, Greyjoy raiding, and complete incompetence by Cersei, and Tommen has no faculty to make his own decision on arming the faith at his age in the books. But because they want to keep part of the book story line it won't happen, even though the reasons it wouldn't happen in the book don't exist here. Which is where the writers tend to struggle in most of their original story lines. They change the circumstances but want to shoehorn in the same ending. They also could have minimized the problem of why doesn't Tommen do something, by not aging up Tommen in the first place, so Cersei is Queen Regent again.

I still completely agree with all of this. There has been a lot of shoe-horning happening and everything is so rushed that it's hard to understand some characters' motivations.

[The Scabbard Of the Morning]

What, you expected anything that these writers come up with outside of the books to make sense, ha.

[Biglose]

The Spanish Inquisition actually gave fair trials. Well, as fair as they could be, considering the subject matter.

Don't you think of the roman inquisition. Fun Fact: This lead to people cursing god in prision. The first Inquisitor did not even give a single death penalty and only a hand full severe prison terms. This guy seemed to have actually believed what the guy with the cool beard and the sandles preached....

It's just poor writing. They could have at least made it less obvious without reminding everyone that he was Loras squire. Aging up Tommen is really backfiring too.

The plus for aging Tommen:

1) Sex scene with Margaery

The minuses:

1) He should have regency at his age and Cersei should be nothing.

2) He shouldn't act like a six year old who can't speak or comprehend what is happening when his queen is threatened or he is challenged.

3) He isn't sweet, young and naïve, he is indecisive and a door mat that anyone can walk over.

4) He signed the order arming the faith, how about signing another one disarming them? For all Margaery's alluded scheming she hasn't accomplished convincing him of even that yet?

Please do not put "what I would have liked to happen" into the box of "what is reasonable to happen".

Let's be honest about it, he has agency. The point is his character. He does not want to murder people, he does not enjoy it. Thats why he did not order the Kings Guard to just cut through the people to get to the high sparrow before. Thats why he is between the chairs. And lets be honest given his position, I could imagine myself with 100 years of experiance still acting like he is acting. As a fan of the Order of the stick he kind of reminds of Lord Shojo, And it is not even that stupid. How should he have acted? Turn against his mother and therefor his family or turn against his wife and her family. Actually knowing it or not he is choosing the best path.

3) Again, what else? Kill the faith and be hated by the public?

4) Thats outside his power, and that you do not know that... If he would act like that he would risk open rebellion in KL, that would be stupid.

Like it or not, he is actually acting in the smartest manner known to men, wait until you do not have to pick a side. Look, in the real world thats what Angele Merkle does...

If you are perceptive enough and read the currents right (and you are able to act fast and people consider you morally integer) thats an awsome approach.

Margery thinks she controls him (or at least that Cercai is her only obstacle to control), the faith probably thinks they pulled some over him and Cercai thinks she controles him... Thats how you go down in history books at the wise king.

The argumention about how Tommen should have acted reminds me of the UN games we had in school where those kids tasked with playing Saudi Arabia introduced womenrights and gay rights... yeah...If Tommen is seen as a threat his live is in danger, just remember what happend to his brother!

[Direwight]

Major parts of the sparrows plot has made little sense to me. Homosexuality clearly (?) isn't a crime (Joffrey wanted to make it so; they'd have mentioned it if he had), Tommen doesn't do anything (neither when Loras was arrested originally, nor at the hearing) even though he'd obviously know that he can and there was nothing but Olyvar's word against both Loras and Margaery.

And one related thing that seemed completely bizarre and out of character was how Cersei basically sent Tommen to (try to) talk with the High Sparrow... which seems obviously dangerous, because they're clearly complete loonies. Considering how close it came to turning violent, it was almost as if she had been setting a trap for him, which she obviously wouldn't do.

[Biglose]

Major parts of the sparrows plot has made little sense to me. Homosexuality clearly (?) isn't a crime (Joffrey wanted to make it so; they'd have mentioned it if he had), Tommen doesn't do anything (neither when Loras was arrested originally, nor at the hearing) even though he'd obviously know that he can and there was nothing but Olyvar's word against both Loras and Margaery.

And one related thing that seemed completely bizarre and out of character was how Cersei basically sent Tommen to (try to) talk with the High Sparrow... which seems obviously dangerous, because they're clearly complete loonies. Considering how close it came to turning violent, it was almost as if she had been setting a trap for him, which she obviously wouldn't do.

Actually the high sparrow set a trap for him, in which Tomen did not walk. My guess is that to same degree he counted on the fact of it turning violent.

And thats the highest danger, they are NOT loonies. At least not their leader.

Yes he could act, but by doing so he would position himself activily against the population. Joffery did that. Even if the faith goes around killing gay people, well not really a danger to him. As a matter of fact, if they think he is the best king they can hope for... Well, lets just say that goes a long way towards consolidating his power.

That is what I love about SoIaF and GoT, they guy acting the most stick up his ass does not win, it is the guy or the girl acting smart and wise.

[Mindwalker]

Actually the high sparrow set a trap for him, in which Tomen did not walk. My guess is that to same degree he counted on the fact of it turning violent.

And thats the highest danger, they are NOT loonies. At least not their leader.

Yes he could act, but by doing so he would position himself activily against the population. Joffery did that. Even if the faith goes around killing gay people, well not really a danger to him. As a matter of fact, if they think he is the best king they can hope for... Well, lets just say that goes a long way towards consolidating his power.

That is what I love about SoIaF and GoT, they guy acting the most stick up his ass does not win, it is the guy or the girl acting smart and wise.

But would not letting the Hs kill his brother in law - not to mention his Queen - weaken the crown? It is in his own interest to save them and to assert himself against the Sparrows. Of course, if Cersei wasn't so stupid, she would know that, too.

[Biglose]

But would not letting the Hs kill his brother in law - not to mention his Queen - weaken the crown? It is in his own interest to save them and to assert himself against the Sparrows. Of course, if Cersei wasn't so stupid, she would know that, too.

She ain't dead yet. And to give the question back: What did Arthur do? Is Arthur a weak King with no agency?

Her broken to a point and still accepted by him, might even play well with the people since she is quite popular. And it would restrict her scheming against him.

And lets be honest, her family killed his brother. They are (at this point) the worst thread to him.

As a King you are top of the foodchain, yes. But you depend on the fact, that the order in general is respected. And faith may play a very important role here. (Thats why a lot of rulers liked to style themself as gods. (One of the reasons why I am not that ungratefull for christianity, because I kind of would mind to still live in a roman style society (even though it probably would have been better for me assuming I would have been born in the same situation.)

If you go just in the face of the population that rules mean nothing to kings but they have to follow, you kind of seed your own revolution.

And if his brother in law violated the law of men and gods then he has to pay for it. (Thats what King Arthur would say)

[Stonehearted Snake]

Major parts of the sparrows plot has made little sense to me. Homosexuality clearly (?) isn't a crime (Joffrey wanted to make it so; they'd have mentioned it if he had), Tommen doesn't do anything (neither when Loras was arrested originally, nor at the hearing) even though he'd obviously know that he can and there was nothing but Olyvar's word against both Loras and Margaery.

I agree that a lot of it doesn't make sense, but as far as it being a crime, I thought the High Sparrow was trying him for a religious crime. Not something the crown prohibited.

[Tadco26]

Please do not put "what I would have liked to happen" into the box of "what is reasonable to happen".

How should he have acted? Turn against his mother and therefor his family or turn against his wife and her family. Actually knowing it or not he is choosing the best path.

4) Removing their power to bear arms is outside his power, and that you do not know that... If he would act like that he would risk open rebellion in KL, that would be stupid.

Like it or not, he is actually acting in the smartest manner known to men, wait until you do not have to pick a side.

He wouldn't be knowingly turning against his mother regardless, remember his mother keeps claiming she had nothing to do with this.

How is it outside his power? Sure it would have repercussions, but so does letting people ignore his orders, arrest his queen and his brother in law against his wishes. There is nothing in the show to say the people want the Sparrows to be armed and would revolt if it was taken away from them. In fact it wasn't even the Sparrows idea to be armed in the first place. No it wasn't the smartest manner known to man. The smartest manner known to man would be to point out that squires see their knights nude on a semi-regular basis.

[Johnsmith]

Why didn't Ollena/Margaery command an audience with the king upon arrival at Kingslanding?

That trial was monthy python. The acting was also quite atroticus.

A birthmark so what? Totally riciduclously unreasonable considering a squires duties. Even more absurd given by a later brothel manager. This kind of nonsense is thrown out of the door immediately, because under their laws he was already baring false testimony considering his stature.

Margaery perjured from placing her evident upon supposedly witnessing a squire. Under that same unreasonable witness their testimony.

This kind of Justice would have seen reasonable men act against the lack of Justice.

The expressions at the trial what were they? Help prease, I kill youuu, bothered, faceplam, smirks, I am ze law.

An act of war has been declared but badly arriving by dung cart, muddy feild, it was all seriously corny, in stead of arriving in force commanding the Kings ear.

I cannot comprehend this kind of dumbing down failling in every sense.

[Direwight]

Actually the high sparrow set a trap for him, in which Tomen did not walk. My guess is that to same degree he counted on the fact of it turning violent.

And thats the highest danger, they are NOT loonies. At least not their leader.

Yes he could act, but by doing so he would position himself activily against the population. Joffery did that. Even if the faith goes around killing gay people, well not really a danger to him. As a matter of fact, if they think he is the best king they can hope for... Well, lets just say that goes a long way towards consolidating his power.

That is what I love about SoIaF and GoT, they guy acting the most stick up his ass does not win, it is the guy or the girl acting smart and wise.

Well, I just don't see why opposing the sparrows would mean opposing the population? It's not like the majority of commoners are sparrows, or why would the population take the side of fanatics who pour their wine into the gutter. Common people seem to like drinking and brothels a whole lot, after all.

Even so, surely Tommen wouldn't think of something that complicated. He's old enough to understand that he's the king and an authority, but not smart enough to perform some kind of advanced long-term power dynamics calculations on the spot.

The part about the HS being the one who tried to set a trap for Tommen seems plausible, though.

[Biglose]

He wouldn't be knowingly turning against his mother regardless, remember his mother keeps claiming she had nothing to do with this.

How is it outside his power? Sure it would have repercussions, but so does letting people ignore his orders, arrest his queen and his brother in law against his wishes. There is nothing in the show to say the people want the Sparrows to be armed and would revolt if it was taken away from them. In fact it wasn't even the Sparrows idea to be armed in the first place. No it wasn't the smartest manner known to man. The smartest manner known to man would be to point out that squires see their knights nude on a semi-regular basis.

Right... Look how easy it is to pass gun control in the USA. Or to restrict hunting in France (hell, each season there are probably more people shot than deer).

They are armed, issuing a piece of paper won't make their arms magically disappear.

A mace for corn stand?

Yeah, but this was not fucked up by him. This was fucked up a certain member of a certain noble house who had to jump the witness, making it nearly an admition of guilt.

Yes, tommen is not the knight in shining armor for the tyrell in distress, but why should he be...

[Biglose]

Well, I just don't see why opposing the sparrows would mean opposing the population? It's not like the majority of commoners are sparrows, or why would the population take the side of fanatics who pour their wine into the gutter. Common people seem to like drinking and brothels a whole lot, after all.

Even so, surely Tommen wouldn't think of something that complicated. He's old enough to understand that he's the king and an authority, but not smart enough to perform some kind of advanced long-term power dynamics calculations on the spot.

The part about the HS being the one who tried to set a trap for Tommen seems plausible, though.

How many of the poor folks do you think can afford wine? Do you really think that Littlefingers brothel is "for the guy next door?".

The faith preaches this ugly idea that people are equal. Thats quite appealing to people who used to be told they are nothing.

No, Tommen does not think that far. He just acts with commen decency. Not killing people if he happens to disagree with them. Yeah, I know in GoT this makes him the odd one. I am just saying that in his position this is something which could actually go a long way in helping him, all things considered. He has not the powerbase to be the King who is feared, his grandfather would have been. And with him gone, he can only try to be the guy everybody thinks he or she can manipulate. Too much effort to get rid of and getting rid of him would bring all the other people against you, who also think they can manipulate him. Not a long term strategie for sure, but as for now the best he has, unfortunatly for him.

[Tadco26]

Right... Look how easy it is to pass gun control in the USA. Or to restrict hunting in France (hell, each season there are probably more people shot than deer).

They are armed, issuing a piece of paper won't make their arms magically disappear.

Yeah, but this was not fucked up by him. This was fucked up a certain member of a certain noble house who had to jump the witness, making it nearly an admition of guilt.

Yes, tommen is not the knight in shining armor for the tyrell in distress, but why should he be...

He is a monarch, he doesn't have to have his orders signed by congress or any other legislature. If he did the Sparrows never would have been armed in the first place. And you are right that issuing a paper won't magically make their arms disappear. The Tyrell and Lannister armies will.

The witness had no credibility even when telling the truth over the word of the queen and heir to high garden. His knowledge of the birth mark was easy to explain away. Tommen should be protecting his queen because an attack against her with no repercussion opens up an attack on him. It only works in the books because he is a little kid with no regency or even awareness of what is going on. If you think that he is the best king ever based on his actions I suspect we will never agree on that point.

[Biglose]

He is a monarch, he doesn't have to have his orders signed by congress or any other legislature. If he did the Sparrows never would have been armed in the first place. And you are right that issuing a paper won't magically make their arms disappear. The Tyrell and Lannister armies will.

The witness had no credibility even when telling the truth over the word of the queen and heir to high garden. His knowledge of the birth mark was easy to explain away. Tommen should be protecting his queen because an attack against her with no repercussion opens up an attack on him. It only works in the books because he is a little kid with no regency or even awareness of what is going on. If you think that he is the best king ever based on his actions I suspect we will never agree on that point.

Look, I point you back to Arthur.

Sure as a king a can "swing his dick" and hope that everybody backs down. But what if they don't? He can't afford it. Simple as that. He is in the middle of two crazy chicks and a crazy sparrow shooting at each other. Keeping your head down would not seem as a bad idea. And yes it is his character that he thinks everybody is as good hearted as he is. But as a coincidence this could actually work against the crazy sparrow, because he claims the same for himself. (He probably sees not even a fraction of what I am writing here. But it would be funny if he did. If he starts taking advice from his cats he would become my favorite character (and he should take a paladin level).