Margaery incrimination too easy?

[Dofs]

That's rather the point. Tommen isn't going to be anybody's panacea for the woes of Westeros.

I'm skeptical on this being the point. More like Tomment was made to be so pathetic only for the plot to make even a bit of sense. For Cersei to still rule the kingdom despite having no authority to do so and for the Faith plot to work.

[WildBlood]

I agree.

To me the whole scene made no sense whatsoever.

Olyvar was a squire.

Squire is essentially a male version of a handmaiden, right?

It is perfectly normal for a squire to happen to see his knight naked at some point.Don't they help them get dressedm help them with grooming or baths etc?

The birthmark being incriminating evidence of Loras being gay was just shoddy .

Also perjury isn't much of a serious crime enough to lock up the Queen herself.

She was just protecting her brother.

They should have gone with adultery.It's a much more serious offence and they could have easily done that in the show.

LOL I read that as grooming their balls for some reason! But this whole plot going on in KL doesn't feel anything like the books. Cersei doesn't seem like a paranoid alcoholic, in fact she seems the complete opposite. They really dropped the ball by aging Tommen, because with him in charge Cersei SHOULD have no power at all as opposed to the books where she is regent. And if Tommen is in charge why does he do nothing at all when margery is taken? D&D should have stuck with the source material if they couldn't come up with their own sensible replacement.

[jonny__bravo]

Iam sorry if this has already mentioned, but isnt Olyvar Littlefinger's agent from the get go. Wasn't his whole reason for being Loras's "squire" to cosy up/seduce him to find out that the Tyrells intended to marry Sansa to Loras and get control to the "key to the North", and didn't Littlefinger make this known to the Lannisters which earned him more recognition and I think permisson to to effectively the crown's man in the Vale?

Olyvar has been Littlefinger's brothel keeper since he went to the Vale (Oberyn scenes last season etc), and was present both times this season when the Faith Militant smashed up the place, saying "this establishment is owned by Lord Petyr Baelish" loudly and often, while earning blows both times along the way.

Now fast forward to the hearing we saw this episode, Olyvar clearly hasnt been "put to the question" by the Faith Militant, and quite readily (and seeminlgy happily) volunteers the knowledge he has about Loras and the Queen witnissing them in bed, desipte it being known by the Faith that he is a homosexual prostitute.

So what is his angle and the bigger angle here, isnt it quite possible that he is still Littlefinger's agent desgined to sow further discord and discontent between the Lannisters and Tyrells?

Trying to make sense of show Littefinger's motivations is a thread in itself, he has worked as the Lannister's agent on numerous occasions and for the Tyrells in Joffrey's murder, so what his possible angle is here with Olyvar is anyones guess. If the trailer is to be believed I think we are going to get a scene with the Queen of Thornes and Littlefinger ("theyl never find what's left of you") so that might reveal more.

[Ser Duncan of Flea Bottom]

This scene was stupid. So Olyvar's word is more acceptable than the others? I know he did tell the truth, but the impression I get is that the faith will forgive him, as he didn't seem to have been tortured at all, he was smirking and sat on that chair like a boss.

Also, side note, for a faith trial, and more, for someone linked to the royal family being tried, couldn't they find a smaller room to do so? (I am being ironic), it seemed they were in a cupboard.

[Ted Chang]

I'm skeptical on this being the point. More like Tomment was made to be so pathetic only for the plot to make even a bit of sense. For Cersei to still rule the kingdom despite having no authority to do so and for the Faith plot to work.

Surely for Cersei to rule Tommen is required to be weak and easily bullied? Cersei has the power, which is authority in itself. Of course a Tyrell army might well put an end to such power, but short of that we all (mostly) know what will bring Cersei down (although probably not completely out). In short, Tommen isn't the first puppet ruler I've ever read about.

[John Suburbs]

I'm just curious to know if non-book readers can already see how all of this is going to come back and bite Cersei in the arse.

[Ted Chang]

I'm just curious to know if non-book readers can already see how all of this is going to come back and bite Cersei in the arse.

My Unsullied sprog (well, he's 18 now so not that much of a sprog) has already pointed out to me that controlling religious loonies isn't an easy thing. He knows it isn't going to end well, but he's not certain who will be doing the suffering.

[Mish Windage]

Same as everyone, my first thought was if he was his squire, he'd know about the birthmark. Didn't make sense to me. I'm wondering how much contact Oly had with LF. Could LF have instructed him to do this, so LF can come in and save the day and strengthen his Tyrell alliance? Is this how Oly gets to the wall through a LF request to Tom as "punishment"?

[Lord Varys]

The set-up makes no sense. For instance, why would Littlefinger (or anyone, for that matter) care for a decree signed by King Tommen if actually nobody cares about what King Tommen wants to do. A puppet king is still dangling on the threads of those controlling him, but they do not actually undermine (or would be utterly stupid to undermine) the basis of the power of the king as an institution.

Tommen Baratheon is a puppet in the books in the sense that he is kept away from the governance of his own Realm, and in the sense that he is also kept in the dark about what is going on (for instance, Pycelle and Ser Harys do not tell him about the trouble his mother and his wife are in at the end of AFfC, nor does Ser Kevan later tell anything to Tommen about his mother's walk of shame).

The implication is clear - had King Tommen known anything about those developments/situations he may actually have been able to make his voice heard, and done something to help Cersei and/or Margaery. Cersei also has to use blank warrants Tommen has signed into which she later inserts the names of the people that should be arrested - a hint that Tommen would not have signed warrants demanding the arrest of Margaery's friends and kin.

As the regent Cersei could, of course, also sign stuff as the regent but she (and Tywin before her) is smart enough to make every important act of government the king's decision to give the impression of continuity and order.

The show completely botches this by making Cersei a scheming plotter when in fact she would not have to plot. As I've said before, her not being Queen Regent and officially ruling the Realm in Tommen's name is the core mistake of this whole (stupid) plot line. It makes both her and Tommen jokes, and Margaery and Olenna, too.

In the books it is clear that the sparrows are overstepping themselves when they arrest Margaery and Cersei, and the Tyrells are not really helpless (and stupid) women but actually the most powerful house in the entire Realm, and Mace and his bannermen and their armies. Cersei has to tread carefully not to appear innocent in front of the vegetable Tommen but to not offend her formal allies to much.

And I actually thought they could make this into a decent, book-based story - have Cersei rule in Tommen's name, Margaery try to get Tommen to stand up to his mother, Cersei secretly gathering and feigning evidence against Margaery, and so on.

Instead we get a crusade against homosexuals (great idea, D&D, especially since the Faith does not exactly consider homosexuality a crime in George's books) and stupid rules made out of the blue enabling the sparrows to do whatever the hell they like.

[ambi76]

(well, he's 18 now so not that much of a sprog)

There is no way Tommen is 18, no matter what bullshit the GOT-Wiki pulls out of their ass. DCC says he's playing a twelve year old and that's what I'm going with rather then some insane SORAS.

[Mish Windage]

I'm just curious to know if non-book readers can already see how all of this is going to come back and bite Cersei in the arse.

I know one show only person who thinks arming the FaMil was a genius move. Am so very very very looking forward to future reactions.

[ambi76]

damn double.

[WildBlood]

There is no way Tommen is 18, no matter what bullshit the GOT-Wiki pulls out of their ass. DCC says he's playing a twelve year old and that's what I'm going with rather then some insane SORAS.

I think they were talking about their son

[ambi76]

I think they were talking about their son.

:blushing:

Okay, maybe I should just calm down after work first. As for the perjury indiction of Marg: Lame as hell IMHO. Seriously? They are going to chain her to a dungeon wall for that? I was at least expecting some "ironic" incest accusations.

[Skagosi High Chef]

They write like its a fucking pie eating contest. Its disrespectful to the audience, at least the portion of it they suspect might be literate, and to writers that would actually try. Not even Cersei would allow it to go down like that because it completely usurps the power of the throne, her throne, and makes Tommen's dick look smaller than Theon's. Makes me miss Joff.

[ambi76]

Makes me miss Joff.

A sentiment I have seen in many fan discussions now. It's kinda hilarious because that's exactly what Cersei feels in the books: "Fuck (that Tyrell loving) Tommen, I want Joffrey back!"

[Ted Chang]

There is no way Tommen is 18, no matter what bullshit the GOT-Wiki pulls out of their ass. DCC says he's playing a twelve year old and that's what I'm going with rather then some insane SORAS.

It would be MY kid who is 18, not Tommen... but I think you now spotted that! :)

[Stonehearted Snake]

Shouldn't the kings guard have acted without tommens approval though? I mean aren't they sworn to protect the queen as well?

No, they are only sworn to the King. The King can then "lend" out his guards to whomever he chooses, including the Queen (and also often to mistresses). I don't have the books in front of me but that was one of the awful things about the Mad King - he brutalized and basically raped his wife Rhaella but the King's Guard just stood around doing nothing. When confronted, using the same argument you made, the response was basically that they are not sworn to protect the Queen from the King. In this case, Tommen held up his hand to hold them back. His decision as King to do that takes priority over any duty to the Queen, Margaery.

[Stonehearted Snake]

My issue/interest is where exactly this is all going for the HS. What is his end goal? He clearly set up Margaery to be arrested - why? The Tyrells are most likely the ones providing the bread he likes to give out! Is he trying to install a religious ruling authority? Mayhaps... I'm hoping this will become more clear in future episodes.

[Bosfan]

My problem with all that is that Tyrells are waaaaaay too easily round up,including also Mace and his little trip, without any meaningful resistance that you have to wonder how how they lasted so long. (Well, tbf they have at least four or five soldiers so yay I guess...). It just makes them Lannister hostages which I feel is other way around in the books.

I guess including Willas and Garlan would just burst show's Tyrell matriarchy myth which I see is showing up more and more in mainstream, but that's another story...