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Xray the Enforcer

[Book Spoilers] EP506 Discussion v. 2

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Sounds like you're confusing Westeros with wherever you live in the real world. Height of presentist stupidity. Come on haters, you can do better than this shit.

Haters? I loved the show, when it was good. It introduced me to the books.

This is critical analysis. What you're doing here is flat-out denying that critical analysis should even exist.

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Honestly, D&D pull rabbits out of hats to make whatever ends meet that they've decided on. Time, plot, character, circumstance, book description or story, none of that matters. Just 'good' tv - according to them. Which it is not to me, to wit, the atrocious Sand Snakes.

Since Jon is going to Hardhome to save the realm from potential Wights, it's possible that his plan of saving fArya (show's real Sansa) doesn't come to fruition. It's more likely she gets saved by a conflicted, 'real knight' (barfing), that is stupid tv Brienne.

And please save us all from Sansa and Ramsay jr. I guess since time means nothing, if the little bouncing bundle of joy exists, she could have him as early as Ep10.

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This is critical analysis. What you're doing here is flat-out denying that critical analysis should even exist.

Read Lothar for critical analysis. No book bleed, no presentism and no juvenile abuse aimed at the showrunners.

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Sounds like you're confusing Westeros with wherever you live in the real world. Height of presentist stupidity. Come on haters, you can do better than this shit.

Is that even a real word?

And I think you're making a rather common mistake: even if the age of consent is twelve in Westeros, it doesn't mean Tommen magically has the understanding of an adult. He is still a chil, still unable to give meaningful consent and it is still rape, even if it is legal in Westeros.

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Is that even a real word?

And I think you're making a rather common mistake: even if the age of consent is twelve in Westeros, it doesn't mean Tommen magically has the understanding of an adult. He is still a chil, still unable to give meaningful consent and it is still rape, even if it is legal in Westeros.

No it's not rape and no matter how many times you misappropriate the word will make it so.

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They explicitly refer to him as being eight years old in season one-so unless a minimum of eight years has passed since, he's barely scraping thirteen and is a child.

A 13-year-old character can't have sex on TV in the UK, afaik. I don't know how reliable this site is, but they say the character is now 'around 18'. And what I meant before was, even if it's less, say 16, he can't act like a little boy or he comes across as a complete idiot.

Forgot the link:

http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/Tommen_Baratheon#Behind_the_scenes

Back in Season 1, Loras stated on-screen that Tommen is only eight years old. Four years pass by Season 5, which by this original number would make him only 12 on his wedding night - but when Tommen was recast for Season 4 with an older actor, his age was apparently retconned so that he is around 18 years old in Season 5. Other than retconning this one specific line from Season 1, however, it was indeed possible to increase Tommen's age to around 18 without violating internal story logic (Tommen can't be older than Joffrey would have been).

Edited by kissdbyfire

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A 13-year-old character can't have sex on TV in the UK, afaik.

Depends on the context. In historical drama can't hide from the fact that many people who would be considered children in the UK today, were married and even had babies at the age of 13 or 14 in medieval and Tudor times. Queen Matilda married Stephen when she was 14.

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.......Snip

.

Actually in rereading I am still perfectly ok with my four year old post. A personal approach you prefer to see as trolling! Obviously experiences of really existing people have no value for you compared to your fandom enthusiasm.

But why so serious! The whole thing is hilarious. You seem to collect all the old posts by all those who may ever have annoyed you. Do you have some more of what I wrote? I'd be interested in a reread. Actually you must have quite a collection of good reads by now, being the forum NSA or Stasi who only collect the best :D Do you seriously dedicate your time to your personal archive of "I hate it"? Enjoy.

But stop writing nonsense when paraphrasing and interpreting people. I wrote none of those arguments you have invented.

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You refused to properly respond to my critical point about this Sansa arc.

I guess it must never have happened, much like Sansa's character development in The Vale.

Your ridiculous response to this was akin to saying that D&D can do whatever the hell they want without being criticised.

If you want GoT to be an Exploitation Movie, then fair enough. I don't want that and it's disrespectful to the intentions of the source material.

It's hilarious to read your thoughts about others being juvenile, Khal Boner.

I've answered it endlessly. Yes I think her show arc is better than her book arc, including getting raped.

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I've answered it endlessly. Yes I think her show arc is better than her book arc, including getting raped.

Yet still not responding to my points.

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A 13-year-old character can't have sex on TV in the UK, afaik. I don't know how reliable this site is, but they say the character is now 'around 18'. And what I meant before was, even if it's less, say 16, he can't act like a little boy or he comes across as a complete idiot.

Forgot the link:

http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/Tommen_Baratheon#Behind_the_scenes

Back in Season 1, Loras stated on-screen that Tommen is only eight years old. Four years pass by Season 5, which by this original number would make him only 12 on his wedding night - but when Tommen was recast for Season 4 with an older actor, his age was apparently retconned so that he is around 18 years old in Season 5. Other than retconning this one specific line from Season 1, however, it was indeed possible to increase Tommen's age to around 18 without violating internal story logic (Tommen can't be older than Joffrey would have been).

Let me just say that retcon is ridiculous.

However.

If Tommen is indeed eighteen, then he seems, to my uneducated ey, to present an intellectual disabilitY. He acts like a child and it seems just as bad, y'know?

I might not have minded so much if they actually addressed it on the show but it was just brushed aside without impact as though it was only there for the "didn't last long" jokes.

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Yet still not responding to my points.

Your guesses about what comes next you mean? I have no idea how D & D will write it but whatever they do is sure to be more interesting than having her sat on her ass in the Vale, singing songs, eating lemoncakes and trusting LF..

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Okay, there seems to be a lot of miscommunication between us. First off, you seem to be stuck on rescue of Jeyne. When I say Jeyne's main purpose is to motivate Theon, I'm *not* saying her purpose is to motivate Theon to *aid in her rescue* (which is what I think you're implying). Theon's arc in this part of ASOIAF is largely about his own identity (going from Reek back to Theon). The events you cite are actually an example of that: Jeyne's presence serves as a catalyst for the spear wives to influence Theon to escape.

Beyond that, I don't know how to clear this up other than a labor-intensive reread. We will have to just disagree.

To the second point, I was not trying to involve myself in your conversation about 'rape apology'. I'm only trying to point out that fictional rape being different from real-world rape is highly applicable to *our* conversation. In fiction some characters are more important than others. Minor characters serve different narrative purposes than main ones.

1. That is still a gross oversimplification of what happens in that storyline.

2. People on these boards have not been making assertions about Jeynes torment at the hands of Ramsey and her rescue by a resurgent Theon, not her "presence", or Theon's "escape".

I still have a big problem with the distinction between major and minor characters where rape is concerned. The pitfalls are the same regardless.

Because there are so many reasons why this scene was a bad idea we maybe talking at cross purposes about different things. I have objections when these type of scenes are used as shock value, play into unpleasant tropes, play to the nastier wishes of the dark side of fandom or when plot lines are wrung through an insanity wormhole to make them happen, all of which I think have happened in this case.

There is an "insanity wormhole" only if you start with the assertion that "the show writers took her to Winterfell just so she could get raped" and reason backwards. I don't agree with this. I do agree with your comment about the "darker side of the fandom", but I'm seeing very little of that here. If there were people who thought Sansa deserved to be raped or somehow found that scene tittilating, I don't know what they're talking about. They should probably get fitted for an ankle bracelet ASAP because, yikes.

The whole scenario of her being "sold" to the Boltons by Littlefinger is ludacris and further so for her at Moat Caillin to go ahead with it. That right there, when she agrees to cross Moat Caillin is the hingepoint to where this whole Sansa/Ramsay thing really went off the rails.

Is this something we are doing post hoc or were there outrage threads at the time about her crossing Moat Calin?

Lol, people saying this is a realistic rape scene are really reaching. You want to see a realistic rape scene. Here are two examples.

http://rapebait.net/?p=250

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KNqJdsiQZyA

Now, the second one is Dr Melfi's rape from The Sopranos. Here is an excerpt from on the writers of Entertainment weekly when discussing the rape.

"The rape scene is brutal in its directness, focusing mainly on Melfi’s face as she screams and sobs. There’s no ominous music or stylized camera work to remind the viewers that it’s just a TV show and to take them out of what’s being shown on screen."

The complete opposite from the Sansa scene.

Here's some more.

"For a physically and emotionally terrorized Melfi, Tony now represents protection – and, possibly, revenge. Chase(showrunner) didn’t brutalize Jennifer to make her a victim; he did it to push her to the brink of a moral and ethical crisis. Will Melfi sic Tony on her attacker, have him, in her words, ”squashed like a bug”?

I actually thought the Melfi "crisis" storyline in those episodes was one of the most compelling things they did in that show. However, re-watching that season of the Sopranos a while back, I must confess I had to skip that part. In much the same way I still approach the Red Wedding episode and will probably approach future viewings of "Unbent, Unbowed, Unbroken", it's just crushing to watch.

It would be interesting to see what the critical and fan reaction to that scene was at the time. A scene, I will add that was far more graphic and far more brutal than what we saw last Sunday. Not that it has anything to do with the validity of the direction of the Sansa story line, but it might be interesting.

Yes. Thank you. That's the freaking point.

ANYONE would save Sansa Stark. No one would lift a finger for Jeyne Poole.

Theon did.

And if they ever find out, Theon is dead. He didn't mind. He had enough and saved Jeyne Poole.

That's the difference between reading and understanding the text.

Theon didn't.

Yes.

And before you start something senseless, boys can be raped too. Margaery, a grown woman, is having sex with him with the purpose of manipulating him and using him. Doesn't matter how much he enjoyed it (because, for instance, victims of rape, male and female, can have orgasms as well): it was statutory rape.

Yea he is, actually. Tommen is no more than thirteen right now -his age in season one was stated to be eight.

I don't think that's right. In fact, it's stated a number of times that many of the Northern Lords believe her to be Arya.

The showrunners aged Tommen up to the medieval age of consent precisely so they could have him and Margaery sleep together. It didn't do Tommen's character any favours, frankly, but the showrunners just wanted more sex.

I must have slept through part of that episode or something. That, or you are arguing that the show's creators made a gratuitous editorial decision for something they didn't actually depict. There is no Margery/Tommen sexy time scene. There was no reluctant voyuer in the room. There was no physical/sexual domination or extortion/compulsion taking place or even alluded to. There is no analogy to that Sansa scene or crypt scene or Dany's honeymoon at all.

I for one like the slightly aged, though weak and inexperienced Tommen as opposed to the super childish pre-pubescent Tommen. Tommen in the books is someone who can't do anything. Tommen in the show is someone who should do something.

On the subject of characters ages and sexual maturity, Martin himself has addressed this regarding what happens in the books. This world is thoroughly patriarchal and medieval in nature. In those times, there was no conception of adolescence. That's not me saying that, that's GRRM.

Even beyond that, current statutory rape laws notwithstanding, It is really easy to forget that we are only a few generations removed from a time when it was utterly ordinary for a young woman to be married off at 16 and even as young as 13 or 14. I'm talking about my great grand parents or even grandparents generation. Now, it was also typical for the male to be a few years older. They have reversed this in the case of Margery/Tommen. So what?

Time is short and they're wasting it on fanfiction so that Sophie Turner gets more screen time (not even getting into WHAT THEY DID WITH HER of course). Protar's suggestion would actually have given them more time to tell the actual fucking story.

Fictional character, right? I'm sure Sophie is just fine.

Edited by Deadlines? What Deadlines?

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Let me just say that retcon is ridiculous.

However.

If Tommen is indeed eighteen, then he seems, to my uneducated ey, to present an intellectual disabilitY. He acts like a child and it seems just as bad, y'know?

I might not have minded so much if they actually addressed it on the show but it was just brushed aside without impact as though it was only there for the "didn't last long" jokes.

Well, yeah. That was the point I was making! :laugh:

Depends on the context. In historical drama can't hide from the fact that many people who would be considered children in the UK today, were married and even had babies at the age of 13 or 14 in medieval and Tudor times. Queen Matilda married Stephen when she was 14.

Doesn't matter, I'm talking about the law.

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Still not addressing the issues.

The issue seems to be that you think you know how the rest of the story will play out before it's even aired. I wouldn't be so confident if I was you. Bet you didn't see last weeks episode coming.

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The issue seems to be that you think you know how the rest of the story will play out before it's even aired. I wouldn't be so confident if I was you. Bet you didn't see last weeks episode coming.

Of course I did. It was obvious as soon as they contrived to have Sansa in Jeyne Poole's position beyond all realms of narrative sense.

I don't see how else they can play it. She's either a victim, treated with honesty and realism. Or she's 'empowered' by the experience and seeks revenge.

As I explained, it's either a terrible narrative choice for the story or a terrible narrative choice for Sansa's character development. Both ways it's a bad choice.

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As I explained, it's either a terrible narrative choice for the story or a terrible narrative choice for Sansa's character development. Both ways it's a bad choice.

In your opinion. I think it's a good narrative choice for the story but obviously it has to change Sansa's character. Lets see what D & D come up with.

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I don't see how else they can play it. She's either a victim, treated with honesty and realism. Or she's 'empowered' by the experience and seeks revenge.

You don't see how they can play it because you've set up a false dichotomy between two specific tropes. Forget "empowerment" which is a word that has a positive connotation and has been bandied about far too often. How about someone who "is wronged and seeks retribution"? How about someone who is "degraded and humiliated and seeks revenge."

And if you think the experience of rape victims is some homogenous mass of consensus and raped women revenging themselves on their rapists is a tired trope, guess again. You could google "revenge against rapists" for instance, or, off the top of my head, tow words: Lorena Bobbit.

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I was going to say something about the Tommen situation, but... while the problem of women being raped is big, and people is now -hopefully- aware of it, men and boys being raped is still denied. They are invisible victims because people (well, idiot people) even laugh at them. At least with women, they are given the benefit of the doubt. With men, nope. "You got raped? LOL, you must be gay or something". Or "you abused a child? I hope every other men in jail rape you!". I wonder if they would say the same when a women is sent to jail for the same reason: sexual child abuse.



And for those who said that "Tommen is thirteen!" let's remind that one scene in which Tywin had to explain him about birds and bees. That scene shows he is not, in any way, ready to start a sexual relationship despite he's thirteen and the King. And btw, my own son is thirteen too. He's been aware of how sex works years ago, since he had one single digit in his age he has been told how human sexuality (kinda) works. And he is still in no way prepared to have sex. He is a child. He's mature, but he is a child. If a women who is in the same age of Margaery tries to seduce him, I would send his sassy ass to jail like there is no tomorrow. And no. There is no "but in middle ages boys matured faster!" because the one scene with Tywin I referred above debunks that about the specific case of Tommen. Either the show forgot or they presented that scene because they thought it would be "funny" to make a joke of the kid being so inexpert and so excited by being doing something he doesn't understand. I'm sure many people always thought it was hilarious seeing the 10 years old Drew Barrymore drunk and high when they fed her with drugs because she was famous and could afford it, right?





If Sansa's arc is boring and unfilmable why make her the protagonist of this season?





That's a good question. They definitely thought Arianne being "just" a powerful women with zero warrior skills was boring enough to cut her from her own arc and put the Snakes to replace her.


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