Good Guy Garlan Posted May 18, 2015 Share Posted May 18, 2015 YET.Right, then we'll talk when (and if) it happens in the books Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gash is back Posted May 18, 2015 Share Posted May 18, 2015 Why is that?I honestly want to know, not attacking or anything.I just want to know why this makes sense and so many other people think it makes sense? jeyne's a fake stark. arya is over the sea. who else could they send up?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mladen Posted May 18, 2015 Share Posted May 18, 2015 Like I said, what happened to Jeyne was fucking horrible and unnecessary and I think GRRM did it for shock value, but it's just a whole new level of horrible if it happens to Sansa. I mean, that's not messed up. I'm not "ok" with the rape of Random Peasant Woman #233, but I would obviously be even more disgusted if it happened to a character I've been following from book one, and especially a character that DOESN'T have to go through that shit in the books in the first place. It is not about Sansa being protected and Jeyne or someone else dispensable. The thing is about the impact and what it brings. Even GRRM drew a line and said "no rape for POV". That is the thing here. It only served as a childish play of shock value. No narrative, no thinking process, even the disgusting empowerment idea... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chambraigne Posted May 18, 2015 Share Posted May 18, 2015 Are you saying it makes sense for a major character to have her entire storyline changed and any character development removed so that they could change her entire arc to be the same as a minor side character in an easily cut or altered storyline? Here's an idea: maybe she's not going to be a major character for much longer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1234567 Posted May 18, 2015 Share Posted May 18, 2015 That's ultimately what happens in the books too, except its Jeyne and not Sansa. Considering there is no Jeyne in the show, it certainly makes sense for Sansa to take that role.Are you saying it makes sense for a major character to have her entire storyline changed and any character development removed so that they could change her entire arc to be the same as a minor side character in an easily cut or altered storyline? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Takyon Posted May 18, 2015 Share Posted May 18, 2015 So, Sansa was rape because they couldn't have thought appropriate transition for Theon? Heavens...You can argue that there could have been a different trigger but the problem with transitioning from book to screen is that you lose many of Theon's internal monologues. If they just kept him as Ramsay's bitch until whenever his spiritual awakening would have occurred at the weirwood, it may have seemed like very flat development with an abrupt and ill-thought epiphany.Perhaps D&D aren't creative enough to think of subtle moments of revelation that Theon could experience so they settled for a traumatic event to turn his tides,but I have trouble myself thinking of how Theon's epiphany could be done without the introduction of a catalyst like Sansa. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emanresu Posted May 18, 2015 Share Posted May 18, 2015 The rape scene was horrible to watch, albeit that we "saw" it vicariously, and Theon didn't have to "prepare" Sansa (cf books). I think it does serve a valid dramatic purpose: if being rescued by his own sister wasn't enough to shake Theon from his Reek torpor, something truly horrendous would be needed to do so. Of course, the Asha rescue wasn't in the books... The rape scene I struggled with most was the Dany scene in Season One. Specifically not "just" the rape but the idea that she would then fall in love with her rapist. The books handled it differently (she said yes before they did it - a major cricitism of the show is that that didn't happen, but she fell in love with him anyway). I think (no, I don't know) that show Sansa's reaction will be rather different and portray her much more as the strong survivor and ultimate victor over her rapist. It might even be the event that really moves her from pawn to player (those aren't the right words either but you know what I mean). While it was both very intense and utterly revolting, I can see the dramatic need for it and I think the aftermath will be very different, and - well, I'm trying not to use the word "better" because there are no gradations of rape, there's no such thing as a "better" or "worse" rape, but I'm struggling to find the right word, maybe "more developed"? - than the aftermath of the rape of Dany. There is much to object to with the Dany scene and what followed it; I'd like to think that D+D learned from that. So the answer to your question is no, I will keep watching. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mladen Posted May 18, 2015 Share Posted May 18, 2015 Here's an idea: maybe she's not going to be a major character for much longer. So, we have her in 7 out of 7 episodes this year? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gash is back Posted May 18, 2015 Share Posted May 18, 2015 Cersei's been in KL for 4.5 seasons.......... ya nothing ever happens there. :rolleyes: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tharvot Posted May 18, 2015 Share Posted May 18, 2015 Why? Why did Sansa have to take on the Jeyne role? Why did the Jeyne role have to be in the show? As has been previously argued, the Northerners plotting against the Bolton's is the true northern storyline, along with Theon's redemption. If they were going to cut Jeyne (not something I would have been upset about in the least) why then add Sansa in her place? If Sansa did indeed have to go to WF in the show, her plotline could have easily been something completely different. I honestly don't understand this argument at all. Well, I did not write the show script and I'm not privy to either the showrunners' minds nor GRRM's ultimate final plans, so I can't really answer WHY that scene had to be included. Seems to me that Theon's redemption and ultimate escape from WF to Stannis must be pretty important to the end storyline or you're right that they could have just completely glossed over or ignored that scene and entire plot all together. I don't have that much emotion tied up into the Sansa character, so maybe that's why the scene didn't affect me nearly as much as it did some. I mean, cmon, there have been scenes far worse on the screen and in the books that that one. I'm interested to see it all play out and to see where the group goes from here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tharvot Posted May 18, 2015 Share Posted May 18, 2015 So, we have her in 7 out of 7 episodes this year? We saw Ned in quite a few episodes in S1 too. Perhaps Sansa doesnt make it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gash is back Posted May 18, 2015 Share Posted May 18, 2015 Are you saying it makes sense for a major character to have her entire storyline changed and any character development removed so that they could change her entire arc to be the same as a minor side character in an easily cut or altered storyline? the books are not filmable in their current form. stories have to be combined, others cut out completely. so yes it makes perfect sense. especially seeing as sansa will more than likely end up in winterfell in the books anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mladen Posted May 18, 2015 Share Posted May 18, 2015 I think (no, I don't know) that show Sansa's reaction will be rather different and portray her much more as the strong survivor and ultimate victor over her rapist. It might even be the event that really moves her from pawn to player (those aren't the right words either but you know what I mean). This is beating a dead horse. It has been established like 100 times that Sansa is indeed a survivor. You can argue that there could have been a different trigger but the problem with transitioning from book to screen is that you lose many of Theon's internal monologues. If they just kept him as Ramsay's bitch until whenever his spiritual awakening would have occurred at the weirwood, it may have seemed like very flat development with an abrupt and ill-thought epiphany.Perhaps D&D aren't creative enough to think of subtle moments of revelation that Theon could experience so they settled for a traumatic event to turn his tides,but I have trouble myself thinking of how Theon's epiphany could be done without the introduction of a catalyst like Sansa. The problem that rape alone, or at least attempt of rape could have been a trigger enough. But, no, they continued with it. Why? To make a point they are not Disney show? To teach us how women can survive rape? This rape has no purpose, and that is what it makes so awful. Beside, of course, the obvious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chambraigne Posted May 18, 2015 Share Posted May 18, 2015 We saw Ned in quite a few episodes in S1 too. Perhaps Sansa doesnt make it. The best case for Sansa staying alive in the series is to survive physical trauma. Characters that survive life-altering physical trauma tend to become powerful players if they allow themselves to change in the series. If she remains cowed and courteous, she's doomed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mladen Posted May 18, 2015 Share Posted May 18, 2015 We saw Ned in quite a few episodes in S1 too. Perhaps Sansa doesnt make it. Perhaps Jon doesn't make it. Or Dany. Or Arya. Or Tyrion. Or Jaime. Or Cersei... I grew tired... You get the point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mladen Posted May 18, 2015 Share Posted May 18, 2015 The best case for Sansa staying alive in the series is to survive physical trauma. Characters that survive life-altering physical trauma tend to become powerful players if they allow themselves to change in the series. If she remains cowed and courteous, she's doomed. Wait, woman has to be raped in order to become powerful strong, whatever we use these days? Is that what is the moral of this show? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1234567 Posted May 18, 2015 Share Posted May 18, 2015 I think (no, I don't know) that show Sansa's reaction will be rather different and portray her much more as the strong survivor and ultimate victor over her rapist. It might even be the event that really moves her from pawn to player (those aren't the right words either but you know what I mean)..So she has watched her father be beheaded, been imprisoned beaten, nearly murdered had her family slaughtered, but all this is not enough to make her strong. Rape. That's the only thing that can empower women. This idea that women can not be strong characters without the magical transformative effect of rapist penis is one of the most cliched, sexist and mysoginistic tropes going. The book character is infinitely stronger than Jeynsa and so far she hasn't been raped. Nor needed rape as a catalyst. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1234567 Posted May 18, 2015 Share Posted May 18, 2015 Double post Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R4W13Y Posted May 18, 2015 Share Posted May 18, 2015 jeyne's a fake stark. arya is over the sea. who else could they send up?? Um, anyone else? Jeyne is not a Stark nor has any familial ties to the Starks. Send up some random brown haired brown eyed whore from LF's brothel if you don't want it to be "Jeyne" and if you HAVE to have this storyline (instead of the far more interesting Northern Lords). Well, I did not write the show script and I'm not privy to either the showrunners' minds nor GRRM's ultimate final plans, so I can't really answer WHY that scene had to be included. Seems to me that Theon's redemption and ultimate escape from WF to Stannis must be pretty important to the end storyline or you're right that they could have just completely glossed over or ignored that scene and entire plot all together. I don't have that much emotion tied up into the Sansa character, so maybe that's why the scene didn't affect me nearly as much as it did some. I mean, cmon, there have been scenes far worse on the screen and in the books that that one. I'm interested to see it all play out and to see where the group goes from here. I'm not complaining about how the scene was hard to watch or whatever (even though it was, among others) - anyway, that's not my (or many other) argument. My main argument is this: with complaints about the complication of the books, the vast amount of characters and storylines, how little time and budget there is, etc. etc. we spend time on a fArya plot that is not even the focal point of the WF storyline in the books, while every other WF storyline has been cut (so far). I understand things need to be cut/altered/streamlined, but what they choose to cut and what they choose to put in is fair game for criticism. How they choose to streamline and alter storylines and characters is also fair game for criticism. My argument is the fact that they butchered a main characters storyline and arc (and I'm going by just the SHOW here, for those who might jump on me for book reasons) for what purpose? Seriously, she got raped, Westeros is a bad place, Ramsay is a psychopath...we know all of this. Sansa's life sucks. We don't need her raped for any thematic purpose. She has enough reason to hate the Boltons without being raped. She has enough material to become an "empowered woman" without being raped. She's already been tortured and emotionally abused by people in the past. If they want Sansa in WF she can do that without being raped and obliterating her character arc in favor for someone else's (Theon's). If they want the fArya plot, they can do that without it being Sansa. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SerJeremiahLouistark Posted May 18, 2015 Share Posted May 18, 2015 Do the republicans in Westeros get all pissed if she tries to have an abortion or should the female body have shut that whole thing down? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.