[BOOK AND SHOW SPOILERS] Scarlett has left the building!

[Emanresu]

@Rapsie (again, I can't quote) - re rape being more common in medieval times, read any history book. Really, any one.

Re the survivor point, you're right; but I don't think the dramatic purpose is to establish her as a survivor. I think it's to force Theon to re-emerge from Reek. My point, doubtless badly expressed, was that in comparison to the rape scene I found really appalling (Dany's), I think that Sansa will ultimately overcome her rapist (rather than meekly fall in love with him - which was atrocious, and was in season one, and hey, we're all still here). Sansa's scene was horrible - no question. But I think it is dramatically justified (unlike Dany's) by Theon's arc not Sansa's - in the books it's Jeyne Poole and I don't see how her being an incidental character makes it more acceptable - it either is or isn't, and in this case I think it's dramatically justified and certainly not portrayed as anything other than horrendous.

[gash is back]

OK, you've asked this 17 times. I think people have been ignoring you because the differences are so obvious, but here they are.

1. The show wasn't a big deal culturally back then, so the main answer is simply that people weren't talking about it.

2. Another big deal is that what happened was not all that terribly different from what happened in the books.

3. People hadn't already been watching Dany going through hell for 4 years only to finally escape.

4. It made sense and fit in with the arc of the story.

There's a quickly chopped-out starter.

But please allow me to add this: when people don't answer your question, it's usually because they're not interested in your question. Bringing it up over and over and over again when people want to ignore it is not a nice thing to do. So please play more nicely in the future..

it's a very valid question to this debate that a few people have asked in a few different threads. if it's uncomfortable for you to think about it, that's your problem i'm afraid.

[Hodor's Dragon]

I'll still watch, as I still enjoy the show, and I understand that 'that scene' is vital for Reek's transition back to Theon, and further understand the decision to replace Jeyne with Sansa .

I've also got a novel solution for those who are desperately unhappy with the show:

1) never watch another episode

2) keep away from the show forums

3) stick to the book forums.

I promise you'll be happier and so will we.

(edited for autocorrect typos)

It's very tempting to tell people who disagree with you on the internet to shut up and go away, but it's never a good idea.

[R4W13Y]

This is a really good point. I really want to see Gash's reply.

I think it's a great testament to how "book snobs" aren't just rallying against any changes. For me personally, I hate the Sansa storyline because it makes no sense in the context of THE SHOW. To have her do a scene like the one I described it does a lot of great things:

• Shows she's becoming a "player" in her own right

Shows she's "getting back" at LF

Shows she is still interested in vengeance against the Boltons and the Freys (and successful at it eventually)

Shows that the show is still invested in portraying the aftermath of the Red Wedding, which is kind of a huge deal

Is faithful to the ideas/themes/characterizations of the book despite not being a plot from the book, thus proving that it's totally okay to stray from the book if you are still consistent to the characters, plot, and world-building.

[Hodor's Dragon]

it's a very valid question to this debate that a few people have asked in a few different threads. if it's uncomfortable for you to think about it, that's your problem i'm afraid.

I'll bet they only asked it once.

Your feeble attempt to go on the offensive with your last sentence is a knee-slapper.

[Darryk]

I"m a bit bemused by the reactions, to be honest.

What exactly has caused such outrage? Obviously it's not that there was a rape, that happens plenty in both book and show.

With some people it seems to be that sansa got raped. Well, yeah, that's kind of the point; the show writers want you to feel abhorred by Sansa's ordeal and to hate Ramsay, so in that sense the scene achieved the desired effect.

But with most posters it just seems to be the usual "omg they changed the books, weh weh weh"

Yeah well, I don't see what options they had. Sansa's story in book 4 is not interesting, would not have worked for TV. Putting her in such a precarious position instead of random northern girl disguised as Arya makes for much better TV.

[R4W13Y]

I"m a bit bemused by the reactions, to be honest.

What exactly has caused such outrage? Obviously it's not that there was a rape, that happens plenty in both book and show.

With some people it seems to be that sansa got raped. Well, yeah, that's kind of the point; the show writers want you to feel abhorred by Sansa's ordeal and to hate Ramsay, so in that sense the scene achieved the desired effect.

But with most posters it just seems to be the usual "omg they changed the books, weh weh weh"

Yeah well, I don't see what options they had. Sansa's story in book 4 is not interesting, would not have worked for TV. Putting her in such a precarious position instead of random northern girl disguised as Arya makes for much better TV.

I'm guessing you didn't actually read any of the arguments then.

[gash is back]

So because Sansa is in WF = Rape. Got it. Or they could have come up with a number of other storylines. Someone suggested having her and LF disguised as Vale nobility at the wedding and her conspiring with Dustin and Manderly behind LF's back. Seems a lot more compelling and logical to me. And that could have been done without throwing out 4.5 seasons worth of characterizations and plot development.

because she is winterfell with ramsey bolton, the most sadomasochistic character in the series, yes, rape is highly probable. it is unrealistic for it not to happen in fact. she was not brought to winterfell by the writers just so she could be raped, she was raped because she was in winterfell, married to ramsey bolton.

[David Selig]

Yeah well, I don't see what options they had. Sansa's story in book 4 is not interesting, would not have worked for TV. Putting her in such a precarious position instead of random northern girl disguised as Arya makes for much better TV.

Sure, because a plot line full of gigantic plot holes where all characters behave like morons 80% of the time makes for great TV...

[Daphne of House Vakarian]

so again, for the umpteenth time, your problem is not particularly with a character getting raped, but rather you don't like the show diverging so heavily from the book.

that is the subtext here. and it's not at all subtle.

I don't know what answer you are trying to get out of me and what point you are attempting to prove .

You want me to say I am OK with a character getting raped?

Rape , torture, genocide, killing are horrible things.Of course I will be distressed when I read it happening to anyone or seeing it on screen.But I understand it is fictional.

Also, about not liking that the show is diverging so heavily from the book...

Yes, I admit I don't like that.Especially when the changes are just bad overall.

Is that a bad thing?

Anyway, you obviously think Sansa being in Winterfell and wed to Ramsay makes sense.

I personally don't.End of story.

Let's agree to disagree.

[gash is back]

I"m a bit bemused by the reactions, to be honest.

What exactly has caused such outrage? Obviously it's not that there was a rape, that happens plenty in both book and show.

With some people it seems to be that sansa got raped. Well, yeah, that's kind of the point; the show writers want you to feel abhorred by Sansa's ordeal and to hate Ramsay, so in that sense the scene achieved the desired effect.

But with most posters it just seems to be the usual "omg they changed the books, weh weh weh"

Yeah well, I don't see what options they had. Sansa's story in book 4 is not interesting, would not have worked for TV. Putting her in such a precarious position instead of random northern girl disguised as Arya makes for much better TV.

nail on the head. 100% correct.

[1234567]

@Rapsie (again, I can't quote) - re rape being more common in medieval times, read any history book. Really, any one.

I currently have "Stolen Women in Medieval England : Rape, Abduction and Adultery 1100. - 1500", and "Medieval Maidens Young women and gender in England 1270-1540" and "The World we have Lost" in front of me and so far cannot find anything to back the claim that rape was significantly more widespread than it is today.

Re the survivor point, you're right; but I don't think the dramatic purpose is to establish her as a survivor. I think it's to force Theon to re-emerge from Reek. My point, doubtless badly expressed, was that in comparison to the rape scene I found really appalling (Dany's), I think that Sansa will ultimately overcome her rapist (rather than meekly fall in love with him - which was atrocious, and was in season one, and hey, we're all still here). Sansa's scene was horrible - no question. But I think it is dramatically justified (unlike Dany's) by Theon's arc not Sansa's - in the books it's Jeyne Poole and I don't see how her being an incidental character makes it more acceptable - it either is or isn't, and in this case I think it's dramatically justified and certainly not portrayed as anything other than horrendous.

Sansa's arc is then reduced to Jeyne as being a catalyst for Theon's growth which in turn leads back to a problem many have had with Sansa's arc which is that instead of her being developed, her character is used as a springboard for male development.

Also if it is about Theon, then they could have done it another way.

[Bastard of Balmora]

So it's okay for Jeyne, not for Sansa.


Got it. You people sure do love to be outraged.

[gash is back]

I currently have "Stolen Women in Medieval England : Rape, Abduction and Adultery 1100. - 1500", and "Medieval Maidens Young women and gender in England 1270-1540" and "The World we have Lost" in front of me and so far cannot find anything to back the claim that rape was significantly more widespread than it is today.

Sansa's arc is then reduced to Jeyne as being a catalyst for Theon's growth which in turn leads back to a problem many have had with Sansa's arc which is that instead of her being developed, her character is used as a springboard for male development.

Also if it is about Theon, then they could have done it another way.

did it ever occur to anyone that maybe sansa is not supposed to an empowered character? there are plenty of strong women in the series, maybe she just isn't one of them.

[Ser Pounce FTW]

Defy all internal logic to plop her in Winterfell to be raped, then pluck her out when that's done and set her back right where she started.

Even better TV!

If you think Show Sansa will be returned to the Vale after this season to flirt with HtH, you're really not paying attention. Show LF tells Cersei he's talking the knights of the Vale north to Winterfell.. Book LF tells Sansa to win over HtH, marry him so they can rally the knights of the Vale and head north to Winterfell. Hmmmmm.

Why is that?I honestly want to know, not attacking or anything.I just want to know why this makes sense and so many other people think it makes sense?

The role of "Stark" married to Bolton is critical to all the storylines of the North: It gives the northern people a cause to rally around "Save Ned's girl"; it gives the Boltons a reason to taunt Jon away from the Watch; it gives Jon a reason to ignore his vows and choose to go to Winterfell; it gives Theon a reason to find himself again; and it gives Stannis an enemy that he can use to reach out to northern bannermen on his quest for the Throne. That "girl" is the lynch pin in everything that is and will happen there. Of course they could have given that role to an extra while Sansa sits in the Vale flirting and having girl talk with Myranda while slipping Uncle LF kisses or they could put her in this pivotal role and continue to show her character growth. And I'll address the idea of using rape for growth below.

The huge difference is that Sansa's narrative basically went kaboom with this. The problem is that they are going to use rape as some "maturity factor" or "empowerment". That was never the point with Jeyne. The implications of Sansa's storyline, the entire retrograde nature of her character in season 5, all of that makes quite the case that here, the rape was simply not needed. And that it is used for shock value and some awful trope...

It is not the rape that empowers Sansa. She's shown that she's stronger since she walked back into Winterfell. She didn't cow or shy away from the Boltons, she didn't fall for Myranda's trick, she spoke boldly (albeit unwisely so) at dinner when Ramsey was trying to psych her out. Her wedding night is just another example (after many already!) of how she is standing strong with her head held high in the face of adversity. When she agreed to try to avenge her family from inside the Bolton camp, she knew it would mean a wedding and a bedding. She was ready for it and I'd be willing to bet a thousand internet dollars that she won't be traumatized by it in the slightest. She was not expecting soft romance. She is bedding her enemy as part of a bigger plan. From the preview we see her already plotting and planning and it is clear she is leading the plan, not Theon. His redemption will not be saving Sansa but probably involve finding his courage again. Too many people are focusing on the bedding and even D&D didn't focus on that. It's just a step on her way to vengeance. I don't know how successful she'll be but I do think she will try and she will send word to others in the North that evil is happening at Winterfell and I suspect we will see quite a bit of action with Sansa at the center all while she treads carefully around the crazy Ramsey. Having her around another psycho will really show how different she is from Sansa of KL. We've already seen that at the dinner in Winterfell vs. the dinner in KL with Cersei. It looks like she won't be using her courtesy armor much. And come to think of it, she seemed to have scrapped that strategy at the end of the new Alayne chapter as well opting instead for direct baiting of her prey.

[David Selig]

did it ever occur to anyone that maybe sansa is not supposed to an empowered character? there are plenty of strong women in the series, maybe she just isn't one of them.

Tell that to the screen writers of the show who can't shut up about how emporewed Sansa is this season.

[gash is back]

So it's okay for Jeyne, not for Sansa.

Got it. You people sure do love to be outraged.

yep

jeyne raped - makes perfect sense, necessary scene, she's a nothing character anyway

sansa raped - OMG WHAT AN OUTRAGE, MAKES NO SENSE!! WHAT ABOUT HER EMPOWERMENT??

[R4W13Y]

because she is winterfell with ramsey bolton, the most sadomasochistic character in the series, yes, rape is highly probable. it is unrealistic for it not to happen in fact. she was not brought to winterfell by the writers just so she could be raped, she was raped because she was in winterfell, married to ramsey bolton.

But she was brought to WF by the show writers and was married to Ramsay Bolton because of the show writers. I've already listed a good example as to how they could have not done that and had her still in WF "avenging" her family.

I never said that she shouldn't get raped but ALSO still be married to Ramsay. I object to her being married to Ramsay in the first place. To have her in WF though? I don't object to that necessarily, depending on what story they tell. The story they've decided to tell? Well, I believe it is without logic or attention paid to previous seasons worth of characterizations and story arcs.

(You might have misunderstood what I meant when I said she and LF are at "the wedding" disguised as Vale citizens. I didn't mean Sansa's wedding to Ramsay. I don't think that should happen because of reasons discussed ad nauseum already. I meant Ramsay's wedding to someone else or even Roose's wedding to Fat Walda).

[Lord Godric]

This may be an unpopular opinion, but I think people are overreacting to that scene. Is it solely because it was Sansa? The scene was hardly different from Dany's rape in season 1, and clearly that stopped no one. That was an altered scene from the books as well. I don't quite understand why people are saying this scene alone is enough to make them stop watching.

[Hodor's Dragon]

Another point that is worth making, I think:

The reason this scene was in the books was to emphasize and underscore Ramsay's depravity.

In the show, we have already seen multiple Ramsay torture scenes and human-hunting scenes that weren't in the books. Ramsay's depravity is well and truly underscored already. This scene taught us nothing at all new about Ramsay.

It seems that the show-makers just enjoy underscoring Ramsay's depravity.