[BOOK AND SHOW SPOILERS] Scarlett has left the building!

[R4W13Y]

So it's okay for Jeyne, not for Sansa.

Got it. You people sure do love to be outraged.

You sure love to miss the entire point of long, well-analyzed, and well-thought out arguments.

[RoamingRonin]

Sansa's arc is then reduced to Jeyne as being a catalyst for Theon's growth which in turn leads back to a problem many have had with Sansa's arc which is that instead of her being developed, her character is used as a springboard for male development.

Also if it is about Theon, then they could have done it another way.

Why cant her arc do two things at once? What if seeing Sansa is just one of several things that encourages Theon to change?

Theres four episodes left. Jesus Christ.

[R4W13Y]

did it ever occur to anyone that maybe sansa is not supposed to an empowered character? there are plenty of strong women in the series, maybe she just isn't one of them.

The empowered character stuff comes straight from the showrunners and writers. We're not just making that up.

[Bastard of Balmora]

You sure love to miss the entire point of long, well-analyzed, and well-thought out arguments.

You keep posting the same reply "omg you guys aren't reading it"

Since you're so eloquent and versed on the subject, I'd expect you to reply with something other than that, but you're just another consumer of outrage that pervades our cultures and loves to cry about EVERYTHING.

I can't wait for her upcoming scenes that will silence all you babies.

[Darryk]

I'm guessing you didn't actually read any of the arguments then.

I've read a few of them and the gist of the complaint seems to be "the problem isn't that it was Sansa being raped, the problem is that the show put her in a position where she would get raped"

That basically just seems like another way of saying "I don't like that they changed Sansa's storyline".

IMO the reason Sansa was there is because they wanted to give the 'Boltons taking Winterfel' storyline more punch.

To do that they needed a character the audience was actually invested in, someone with a stronger connection to the Stark heritage. Hence Sansa, whose storyline in book 4 and 5 isn't that interesting anyway so they weren't sacrificing much by having her swap places with fake Arya.

Once they'd made that decision, to have Sansa be the one who marries Ramsay; there was always a strong likelihood that Ramsay would end up tormenting Sansa in this way

Firstly because that's his character, secondly because they want the audience to genuinely fear for Sansa and thirdly because they want to continue to build up ramsay as the most despicable and hated character on the show.

Sure, because a plot line full of gigantic plot holes where all characters behave like morons 80% of the time makes for great TV...

Which TV show are you talking about?

[Bastard of Balmora]

Accidentally double posted.

[R4W13Y]

You keep posting the same reply "omg you guys aren't reading it"

Since you're so eloquent and versed on the subject, I'd expect you to reply with something other than that, but you're just another consumer of outrage that pervades our cultures and loves to cry about EVERYTHING. Really, it's watching this spoiled, coddled group of children stamp their feet every time something they don't like happens, that's really removing my faith in humanity. We're fucked.

So you want me to just copy and paste what I've already said in this thread instead of directing people to just read it instead of jumping to baseless accusations?

[The Kinkslayer]

That was the second wedding night rape in this show, If you are going to stop watching because of it you are 5 seasons late.

As GRRM said in his blog, Scarlett O'hara had 3 child in the book, 1 in the movie and none in real life.

People who complain that it didn't happen in the book, do you have an advance copy of TWOW?, because my hunch is that Sansa's wedding night with Harry the hairy is going to play pretty much the same.

[David Selig]

Which TV show are you talking about?

American Idol. Was that not obvious?

[Bastard of Balmora]

So you want me to just copy and paste what I've already said in this thread instead of directing people to just read it instead of jumping to baseless accusations?

All I know is that your precious snowflake character got raped by an utterly repulsive monster who rapes and kills women for fun and you're surprised/outraged. Go watch another show.

[Valetudo]

@Rapsie (again, I can't quote) - re rape being more common in medieval times, read any history book. Really, any one.

Re the survivor point, you're right; but I don't think the dramatic purpose is to establish her as a survivor. I think it's to force Theon to re-emerge from Reek. My point, doubtless badly expressed, was that in comparison to the rape scene I found really appalling (Dany's), I think that Sansa will ultimately overcome her rapist (rather than meekly fall in love with him - which was atrocious, and was in season one, and hey, we're all still here). Sansa's scene was horrible - no question. But I think it is dramatically justified (unlike Dany's) by Theon's arc not Sansa's - in the books it's Jeyne Poole and I don't see how her being an incidental character makes it more acceptable - it either is or isn't, and in this case I think it's dramatically justified and certainly not portrayed as anything other than horrendous.

Let me start with this:

Yes, the rape scene is important to Theon's redemption.

And yes, raping anybody is equally wrong. Sansa or Jeyne doesn't matter here.

But then, you have to look at the consequences of the rape, like you said yourself when talking about Danny.

The problem there was that they introduced rape for no reason and then forget about it, making the whole Danny/Drogo relationship unbelievable.

Now, they're doing the same thing with Sansa. She's raped but will surely end in a situation where this will not be important.

Jeyne is completely broken after it and she'll surely never surpass it, but Sansa will be empowered because that's the point they have to achieve, so her endgame in the show is the same as in the books.

I wouldn't be pissed if they decided to kill her next episode, diverging completely the show from the books.

The problem is that this isn't happening, and they'll shoehorn her into whatever role she'll have in the future books like they shoehorned her into this situation.

[Good Guy Garlan]

You keep posting the same reply "omg you guys aren't reading it"

Since you're so eloquent and versed on the subject, I'd expect you to reply with something other than that, but you're just another consumer of outrage that pervades our cultures and loves to cry about EVERYTHING.

I can't wait for her upcoming scenes that will silence all you babies.

Are you seriously whining about whining right now?

[RoamingRonin]

That was the second wedding night rape in this show, If you are going to stop watching because of it you are 5 seasons late.

As GRRM said in his blog, Scarlett O'hara had 3 child in the book, 1 in the movie and none in real life.

People who complain that it didn't happen in the book, do you have an advance copy of TWOW?, because my hunch is that Sansa's wedding night with Harry the hairy is going to play pretty much the same.

I dont think she will be raped but I dont think she will wait until her wedding night. I think Harry will come on strong and she will give herself to him in hopes of winning and keeping his affection. Cersei told her a woman holds a weapon between her legs and LF owns brothels. Sexuality has always been in the background of her chapters, slowly coming to prominence.

Rape is certainly worse but I find what Cersei and Arianne do (use their bodies to buy loyalty) disgusting in a different sort of way. And I see Sansa going down that path.

[R4W13Y]

All I know is that your precious snowflake character got raped by an utterly repulsive monster who rapes and kills women for fun and you're surprised/outraged. Go watch another show.

Yup, a character that I don't even particularly like that much - but no, you know better than me how I feel about the character in the show and in the books.

Like I said, if you had read my arguments they amount to this: I don't think it's logical for Sansa to be married to Ramsay in the first place, due to things like character arcs and plotlines previously explored on the show (so you can stop acting like I only care because it's a change from the books). I've already gone into why I don't find it logical.

I and others have already come up with more compelling, logical stories that could have happened with Sansa in WF without Sansa marrying/being raped by Ramsay. I would have preferred a WF plot revolving around "The North Remembers" with the fArya stuff cut. But, since we all know you didn't actually read my thoughts and instead like creating strawmen, you wouldn't know that.

[gash is back]

Let me start with this:

Yes, the rape scene is important to Theon's redemption.

And yes, raping anybody is equally wrong. Sansa or Jeyne doesn't matter here.

But then, you have to look at the consequences of the rape, like you said yourself when talking about Danny.

The problem there was that they introduced rape for no reason and then forget about it, making the whole Danny/Drogo relationship unbelievable.

Now, they're doing the same thing with Sansa. She's raped but will surely end in a situation where this will not be important.

Jeyne is completely broken after it and she'll surely never surpass it, but Sansa will be empowered because that's the point they have to achieve, so her endgame in the show is the same as in the books.

I wouldn't be pissed if they decided to kill her next episode, diverging completely the show from the books.

The problem is that this isn't happening, and they'll shoehorn her into whatever role she'll have in the future books like they shoehorned her into this situation.

eh? did you not see theon's face? why do you think they zoomed in on him?

also, danny was raped in the books, as i'm sure you already know.

[The_Watcher_On_The_Walls]

I think people are overplaying the LF cares for Sansa card a little too much. He lusts for her, but he could give a rats ass what actually happens to her. The only thing Littlefinger cares about is Littlefinger. I'll repeat that: The ONLY thing LF cares about is LF. He can and will destroy any and everyone in his path to ultimate power.

Sansa went along with LF's ploy because she was as naive as Ned was when he originally trusted LF to his doom. Yet another Stark fate was gruesomely sealed thanks to LF's meddling.

Frankly, this scene has gotten so much uproar due to the character victimized. Sansa supporters are legion and many are diehard. To me, this scene HAD to happen this season. It would have actually made infinitely less sense for a sadistic monster like Ramsay, who gets off on torturing people, to suddenly treat Sansa gently on their wedding night and it would have been a complete cop-out for the showrunners to have Theon escape with Sansa prior to the wedding when neither showed the capacity or desire to leave up till now.

Agreed. Littlefinger is in it for Littlefinger. The scene where he told Cercei was gold, it summed him up perfectly. He doesn't care about anyone, he wants chaos to reign because that gives him opportunity. His most famous show line is "Chaos is not a pit. Chaos is a ladder".

It seems to me a lot of people are clouded by emotion right now, and simply don't get it.

[Florina Laufeyson]

I"m a bit bemused by the reactions, to be honest.

What exactly has caused such outrage? Obviously it's not that there was a rape, that happens plenty in both book and show.

With some people it seems to be that sansa got raped. Well, yeah, that's kind of the point; the show writers want you to feel abhorred by Sansa's ordeal and to hate Ramsay, so in that sense the scene achieved the desired effect.

But with most posters it just seems to be the usual "omg they changed the books, weh weh weh"

Yeah well, I don't see what options they had. Sansa's story in book 4 is not interesting, would not have worked for TV. Putting her in such a precarious position instead of random northern girl disguised as Arya makes for much better TV.

You are missing the point. In fact everyone ive quoted are missing the goddamn point. How many times do we really need to explain how pointless it is? It comes at the cost of Sansa's entire character development. But most of all: IT SERVES NO NARRATIVE PURPOSE. We already know that straits are dire. We already know Theon is a victim. We already know Ramsay is a sick asshole. We already know all of these things. So why are we subjected to the brutalization of a character who had an entire arc about surviving abuse? Its for shock value and nothing more. It is not good tv, its meaningless and extremely sexist.

So it's okay for Jeyne, not for Sansa.

Got it. You people sure do love to be outraged.

:rolleyes: This argument is disgusting and people need to cut this shit out. People have written essays on how utterly fucked up Jeyne Poole's situation in the books are. That isnt the point. In fact, had they chose to adapt this plot with an imposter, theres a thousand ways (one i already posted in the Discussion thread) to avoid having to be witness to a horrible rape. This is one of the extraordinarily few instances that implication works a lot better than flat out showing the audience something. Dogs barking and screaming being heard in the castle would be enough.

This may be an unpopular opinion, but I think people are overreacting to that scene. Is it solely because it was Sansa? The scene was hardly different from Dany's rape in season 1, and clearly that stopped no one. That was an altered scene from the books as well. I don't quite understand why people are saying this scene alone is enough to make them stop watching.

Point being missed yet again. Pretty sure people were not pleased with Dany's scene with Drogo in season 1. I wasnt in the fandom at that time so im not sure the extent of it. I can tell you this, i sure felt it unnecessary to turn that scene into rape once i read what really happens there. (which i didnt read until midway of season 2) The reason people are stopping watching the show is because they are using rape as a cheap grab for shock and ratings. Its no longer furthering anything. Its just there. And the idea of using Sansa's rape to further Theon's pain is hideously sexist.

[Bastard of Balmora]

Yup, a character that I don't even particularly like that much - but no, you know better than me how I feel about the character in the show and in the books.

Like I said, if you had read my arguments they amount to this: I don't think it's logical for Sansa to be married to Ramsay in the first place, due to things like character arcs and plotlines previously explored on the show (so you can stop acting like I only care because it's a change from the books). I've already gone into why I don't find it logical.

I and others have already come up with more compelling, logical stories that could have happened with Sansa in WF without Sansa marrying/being raped by Ramsay. I would have preferred a WF plot revolving around "The North Remembers" with the fArya stuff cut. But, since we all know you didn't actually read my thoughts and instead like creating strawmen, you wouldn't know that.

Well, we both agree on the marriage not being logical. None of it makes sense, but they needed someone we'd give a shit about in Winterfell...there's that butterfly effect again. No Jeyne (or Jeyne substitute) in the show (other than Ep. 1) means Theon's arc in ADwD is considerably diminished.

But, it's the show, and Ramsay is filth. It wasn't that shocking. I think I just tend to block out all the idiocy that leads up to such moments. Each week I just hope for something great, but this didn't register at all on the meter of something I'd complain over.

"springboard for male development"

Alright, seriously...

[Natalia Borgia]

Could Theon's reaction have been PTSD? Maybe show Ramsay raped him- I would prefer that be the source of his anguish rather than Sansa being victimized. Also maybe he realizes his actions PUT Sansa face down on that bed. The man who killed his true king is running around WF with his fat young wife and insane son while the honorable Starks are being abused. Anyway after the weird kneeling scene last week I speculate that show Ramsay raped Theon.

[Tadco26]

I think some people just don't enjoy watching rape scenes. Other people think that the entire Sansa plot line is poorly written. Littlefinger gained nothing of substance from giving Sansa to the Boltons. He could have lied about the Boltons having Sansa to Cersei and had the same effect. The Boltons rebelled from the Iron Throne to shore up their claim to the north which only existed because of their alliance with the Iron Throne. Besides there are no lords of the north on the show for the Boltons to placate. They haven't been mentioned as a problem, they weren't there to witness the wedding. Without the lords being there, the only point to either the Jeyne or Sansa story line is to give Theon a redemption arc at the expense of Sansa. Apparently the Vale is now completely under Littlefingers control to the point that they will be willing to die so he can be warden of the north.

The rape part would have been just as bad if Jeyne had been the victim. They can cut entire story lines out, entire Point of View characters, but they feel making up a rape scene is vital to advancing the story line? It's not like this was the only option either. Sure it's a realistic outcome of Ramsay marrying anyone, but since they are re-writing most of the story lines they easily could have scheduled Sansa's rescue before her bedding. It's not an impossible to over come dilemma. It's a shock scene and while it didn't out rage me personally, I know other people who felt that it was too disturbing to qualify as entertainment for them and they don't want to watch any more, and that's understandable. Each person has to decide for themselves what is too much.