[BOOK AND SHOW SPOILERS] Scarlett has left the building!

[chambraigne]

People who were surprised by Sansa's rape:

"If you think this has a happy ending, you haven't been paying attention."

[Tharvot]

In terms of show canon. Littlefinger's plan makes no sense for anyone.

Littlefinger: He just gave up his two important wards. One of which (that he's in love with) he put in a warzone with backstabbing psychopaths to look after her. He also has no info on a man who's openly flaying schools of people in the north?

Roose: He makes an enemy out of Cersei for no reason. What happened to his Frey soldiers or the people captured in the red wedding to avoid northern rebellion. Even if Cersei isn't going to send an army up there why wouldn't she give his lands and titles to anyone else in the north who would take it by force and have support because the Bolton's are hated.

Sansa: Why would she agree to this? The knights of the Vale made it clear they'd choose her over Littlefinger so it's not like she was forced. She obviously didn't want to be violated by Ramsay and has no means of controlling either Bolton. It might make sense if she was like Cersei and used it to manipulate the Ramsay against Roose but she was obviously the victim in that scene not a manipulator. It would make as much sense as Daenerys selling herself to the Mountain.

I think people are overplaying the LF cares for Sansa card a little too much. He lusts for her, but he could give a rats ass what actually happens to her. The only thing Littlefinger cares about is Littlefinger. I'll repeat that: The ONLY thing LF cares about is LF. He can and will destroy any and everyone in his path to ultimate power.

Sansa went along with LF's ploy because she was as naive as Ned was when he originally trusted LF to his doom. Yet another Stark fate was gruesomely sealed thanks to LF's meddling.

Frankly, this scene has gotten so much uproar due to the character victimized. Sansa supporters are legion and many are diehard. To me, this scene HAD to happen this season. It would have actually made infinitely less sense for a sadistic monster like Ramsay, who gets off on torturing people, to suddenly treat Sansa gently on their wedding night and it would have been a complete cop-out for the showrunners to have Theon escape with Sansa prior to the wedding when neither showed the capacity or desire to leave up till now.

[Takyon]

I'm in for the long run, for better or for worse. I had watched every episode of the Simpsons up until maybe season 17. This decline in quality is slim pickings compared to that elongated jump over the shark.

That said, I wasn't turned off by the scene for the same reasons others were. I think I lost more sleep over the failed camp value of the Dornish Fox Force Five.

[Mladen]

I'll still watch, as I still enjoy the show, and I understand that 'that scene' is vital for Reek's transition back to Theon, and further understand the decision to replace Jeyne with Sansa .

So, Sansa was rape because they couldn't have thought appropriate transition for Theon? Heavens...

[R4W13Y]

I agree.

I mean, where are the mothers and fathers, brothers and sisters, wives, sons and daughters of all those Northern men who were slaughtered by the Freys during the Red Wedding.

Did they all vanish?

Would it be truly hard to include those families seeking for revenge?

It would have made great TV...Frey Pies?Northern lords plotting against the Boltons? Hooded Killer killing Bolton Men? etc.etc.

Wouldn't it be wonderful to have shown the aftermath of the Red Wedding via Jaime, Brienne, and the Northern Houses? How rich and full of depth would that have made this world?

[dannyk65]

Why do people keep mentioning what happened to Jeyne Poole as if that's significant? Is Jeyne Sansa? No. Why should what happened to Jeyne also happen to Sansa? They are different people in different places with different parts to play in the story.

I guess Tyrion should get flayed (hey, it happened to Theon!), Arianne should lose her hand (hey, it happened to Jaime!), Brienne should do a walk of shame (hey, it happened to Cersei!), Dany and Drogon should be decapitated and Drogon's head placed on Dany's body (hey, it happened to Robb and Grey Wind!), and Arya should have her head crushed (hey, it happened to Oberyn!). Why not?

Yeah, and it fucking sucked, and I think GRRM did it for shock value, BUT...it wasn't Sansa, and that's the important part.

Like, if in the next episode Tormund bends Jon over against his will and tells him, "I heard you have a thing for gingers" and rapes him, would you say, "Eh, what's the difference? Wildlings raped people in the books too"?

Absolute brilliance.

Bravo to both of you!

[Tharvot]

So, Sansa was rape because they couldn't have thought appropriate transition for Theon? Heavens...

That's ultimately what happens in the books too, except its Jeyne and not Sansa. Considering there is no Jeyne in the show, it certainly makes sense for Sansa to take that role.

[R4W13Y]

People who were surprised by Sansa's rape:

"If you think this has a happy ending, you haven't been paying attention."

I love when that line gets thrown at people who are upset with show changes and create legitimate discussion points about their qualms. It's a great way of misunderstanding the arguments and shutting everything down without engaging.

I seriously don't see anyone complaining because they expected a happy ending. I see people complaining due to characterization, plot, and continuity issues (in the show itself, not just with regards to the books). But, by all means, miss the entire point over and over again as people continue to discuss in depth their feelings competently.

So, Sansa was rape because they couldn't have thought appropriate transition for Theon? Heavens...

That seems to be the case...

[Daphne of House Vakarian]

That's ultimately what happens in the books too, except its Jeyne and not Sansa. Considering there is no Jeyne in the show, it certainly makes sense for Sansa to take that role.

Why is that?I honestly want to know, not attacking or anything.I just want to know why this makes sense and so many other people think it makes sense?

[dannyk65]

where else would sansa end up? king's landing again? over to braavos maybe? maybe she could be the first female lord commander!

What a dumpster fire of a response

[Mike]

I think people are overplaying the LF cares for Sansa card a little too much. He lusts for her, but he could give a rats ass what actually happens to her. The only thing Littlefinger cares about is Littlefinger. I'll repeat that: The ONLY thing LF cares about is LF. He can and will destroy any and everyone in his path to ultimate power.

Sansa went along with LF's ploy because she was as naive as Ned was when he originally trusted LF to his doom. Yet another Stark fate was gruesomely sealed thanks to LF's meddling.

Frankly, this scene has gotten so much uproar due to the character victimized. Sansa supporters are legion and many are diehard. To me, this scene HAD to happen this season. It would have actually made infinitely less sense for a sadistic monster like Ramsay, who gets off on torturing people, to suddenly treat Sansa gently on their wedding night and it would have been a complete cop-out for the showrunners to have Theon escape with Sansa prior to the wedding when neither showed the capacity or desire to leave up till now.

It would have been a cop out, but that isn't the point the angry majority is making. The point is that, using the show's narrative, it makes no sense to write her into that situation. So why do it? For the sake of the rape scene is the answer that most of us are coming up with. And that is bullshit.

[Mladen]

That's ultimately what happens in the books too, except its Jeyne and not Sansa. Considering there is no Jeyne in the show, it certainly makes sense for Sansa to take that role.

The huge difference is that Sansa's narrative basically went kaboom with this. The problem is that they are going to use rape as some "maturity factor" or "empowerment". That was never the point with Jeyne. The implications of Sansa's storyline, the entire retrograde nature of her character in season 5, all of that makes quite the case that here, the rape was simply not needed. And that it is used for shock value and some awful trope...

And, now, I missed the second part of response, why not Arya or any other female character instead? Why does it have to be Sansa? or at the end, why anyone? If you are not casting Jeyne, find another way...

[Rhaenys Reborn]

I haven't been on this forum for a while, but thought I'd throw in my three cents.

Of course the Sansa storyline is a huge WTF factor. I do believe it was out of character for both LF to propose such a plan and for Sansa to go along with it.

Secondly, once she's already agreed to do it and play the game, she shoud play the game. Her entire behaviour in Winterfell has been outright wrong strategy-wise. There was this nice shade of her as a cold northern queen in that scene with Myranda and then minutes later she was made the helpless victim again. I really can't believe they actually gave her the Jeyne treatment. It messes me up a little knowing that Sansa is no longer a virgin, and on top of that, by rape. Having said that, I was kind of moved by Theon's reaction.

I still haven't been able to come to terms with the lack of Aegon. Fake or real, he was the most exciting reveal of ADWD for me and I'm sure he would've been the same for the Unsullied show watchers. Actually I'm a little surprised so little is being discussed about it around here. Also, cutting him out makes Tyrion's storyline become very poor in events. I've already heard people complaining that nothing interesting happens with him this season.

"The North Remembers" thrown here and there constantly since season 2 enrages me. It had so much power when said by Manderly to Davos it actually gave me chills. In the show it's become a common phrase no other than "a Lannister always pays his debts".

No Wyman Manderly is another disappointment. But apparently a completely illogical love story between Grey Worm and Missandei is more worthy of screen time than an actual claimant to the throne or a badass lord, who represents the core values of the North. Is it me or is this show really shallow?

No idea where the hell they are going with Jon.

I could rant on and on for hours, so I'm gonna stop now. there are still things that I like about the show. Also, I still link many characters with their book prototypes so I kind of feel to attached to them to give up on them just yet. But this season has definitely been a challenge for me as a book reader.

[R4W13Y]

That's ultimately what happens in the books too, except its Jeyne and not Sansa. Considering there is no Jeyne in the show, it certainly makes sense for Sansa to take that role.

Why? Why did Sansa have to take on the Jeyne role? Why did the Jeyne role have to be in the show? As has been previously argued, the Northerners plotting against the Bolton's is the true northern storyline, along with Theon's redemption. If they were going to cut Jeyne (not something I would have been upset about in the least) why then add Sansa in her place? If Sansa did indeed have to go to WF in the show, her plotline could have easily been something completely different. I honestly don't understand this argument at all.

[Rhaenys Reborn]

double post

[Good Guy Garlan]

1. I dont get the shock, anger and revulsion. People are reacting as if GRRM never wrote such a thing.

2. The reactions lead me to believe people would be ok if it the scene featured Jeyne and not Sansa. That's messed up. Personally, I think GRRM handles rape horribly - Jeyne's bedding wasnt necessary because we already knew Ramsay was a horrible person - but he doesnt get criticized. People are even quoting his blog to bash the show as if GRRM didnt write a scene that implied Jeyne was forced to do a dog. What did that add? Nothing.

The scene was changed, sure, but if came from GRRM's mind. It happened in his books.

3. Dont be ridiculous. Jorah got greyscale and JonCon doesnt even exist. The storylines combined so Jorah gets his fate. Why should what happened to JonCon happen to Jorah? They could have skipped the greyscale but they didnt. They could have left out the slavers but they didnt. Yes, they changed major things about Sansa's plot and could have changed more... but they didnt.

Like I said, what happened to Jeyne was fucking horrible and unnecessary and I think GRRM did it for shock value, but it's just a whole new level of horrible if it happens to Sansa. I mean, that's not messed up. I'm not "ok" with the rape of Random Peasant Woman #233, but I would obviously be even more disgusted if it happened to a character I've been following from book one, and especially a character that DOESN'T have to go through that shit in the books in the first place.

[chambraigne]

Like I said, what happened to Jeyne was fucking horrible and unnecessary and I think GRRM did it for shock value, but it's just a whole new level of horrible if it happens to Sansa. I mean, that's not messed up. I'm not "ok" with the rape of Random Peasant Woman #233, but I would obviously be even more disgusted if it happened to a character I've been following from book one, and especially a character that DOESN'T have to go through that shit in the books in the first place.

YET.

[dannyk65]

keep her in the vale for the next two seasons. gotcha. that would be great tv.

Cersei's been in KL for 4.5 seasons..........

[Anarchosaurus Rex]

Agree with literally everything you say, but had to single out this Talisa point. This was the beginning of me seriously questioning D&D and I wish I was part of these forums to "rant and rave" about that decision then.

Talisa was not just the first major change of choice rather than of necessity, but she set the precedent for all future ones. Ding & Dong took Robb and Jeyne's touching young love and the tragedy of Robb being brought down by his personal honor as his father was and replaced it with a cliché.

I think the worst part was when they had them get married in the light of the Seven. Lmao what? Robb is a Northman and Talisa is a Volantene. Neither of them have practiced the Faith. Shows just how lazy and sloppy the writing was becoming, even then.

[1234567]

That's ultimately what happens in the books too, except its Jeyne and not Sansa. Considering there is no Jeyne in the show, it certainly makes sense for Sansa to take that role.

Are you saying it makes sense for a major character to have her entire storyline changed and any character development removed so that they could change her entire arc to be the same as a minor side character in an easily cut or altered storyline?