The true location of Dany's house with the red door

[Victarion Chainbreaker]

It's hilarious that none of the Illemonati has even tried to refute any of the points I raised here. They just know they can't seriously be right I guess:

Or maybe it's because the books don't contain a single reference to there being a greenhouse in the Sealord's Palace, and all your irrelevant anecdotes about Renaissance orangeries cannot cover up the fact that a greenhouse in the Sealord's Palace is pure fan-fiction.

Oh, my sweet lemoncake friend :)

I was hoping you'd post the map again, so I got a reply all ready for you, but someone beat you to it.

[Hos the Hostage]

This debate is getting too spirited. Someone should ask GRRM. Its not a major spoiler and he'd just need to say 'yes' or 'no'

[Lady Blizzardborn]

<snip

Illemonati.

:lmao: I absolutely love that new term! :cheers:

One question: where else in this world do lemons grow? It can't JUST be Dorne. This discussion always gets into the Braavos and Dorne camps, but I'd love to see someone argue, say the Tyroshi lemon theory. It would add flavor to the conversation.

Suzanna Stormborn, I can't wait til Dany discovers Amaericos and builds the house with the red door in the Planetos equivalent of Tennesee. ;)

ETA: had a brain-wave...Dany remembers a lemon tree outside her window BUT did it actually have any lemons growing on it? Sometimes you can grow a tropical tree in a non-tropical climate--it just won't produce decent (or sometimes any) fruit.

[Blazfemur]

can someone laimen's terms this locale of red door thing?

i didnt think it was a conspiracy. apparently i was wrong lmao.

and it couldnt be anything regarding the red faith, could it? ;)

[Rippounet]

I never took lemongate seriously... And then I read the Alayne chapter.

Now I don't know, but what does this lead to exactly? It's certainly an intriguing detail, but as far as I know, nothing much can be deduced from it.

The rational conclusion at this point would seem to be that Dany was housed in the Sealord's palace, and that this is why the lemon tree is important, because it links her to Braavosi politics.

An alternative is that the detail is here to show her memories are unreliable... Which means there is something else she remembers incorrectly (or has forgotten). Now THAT could be a game changer.

[thisistherevolt]

So I read approximately 60% of this thread, and got struck by the fact that only one plot direction would make sense with Dany being originally from Dorne.

It would have to mean R+L=Daenerys. With that, I wash my hands of this thread, theory and thought. I am now going to gargle some mouthwash to get the foul taste out of my mouth. Good day to you all.

[bemused]

.......

And as has been pointed out. We have only seen the shitty poor part of the city. The poor have difficulties finding fuel for their fires, so trees are reserved for the rich part of town. As we know from Lands of Ice and Fire (GRRM gave the artist some pretty strict orders on that map) there are definitely trees there. So when we finally get to see that part of town in tWoW there will be trees a plenty for all.

Because we should focus on why she was expelled from Braavos. We know that one Sea Lord (perhaps Syrio's Sea Lord) granted the Targaryens shelter and he even went as far as witnessing a marriage pact between Viserys and Arianne, which is clearly meddling in foreign affairs. I'm pretty sure that the House with the Red Door was actually a summer house of some sort in the Sea Lord's personal garden.

However, later on we know that Viserys and Dany were driven out of the city. How do we explain that? Pretty simple actually, Viserys and Dany were driven away by the new Sea Lord, who was decidevely less in favour of Targaryens than his predeccesors. This shows that Braavos has some divided opinions on the Targaryens. Divided opinions that might influence the story later on when Braavos has to decide between a proTargaryen Sea Lord and an antiTargaryen Sea Lord (we know the current Sea Lord, who likely banished the two away from the city is dying).

.......

I largely agree with this and have spouted much the same on various threads.

There are a couple of other wrinkles that occur to me..one being that the institution of the healers is known as the House of Red Hands, and given that Darry was old to begin with (perhaps already unwell) and Dany was a babe in arms, the house may have been some sort of hospice (the "servants" obviously answered to a higher authority tha Darry) ..As for lemon trees, besides being exotic, lemons would have various uses for healers. (One that springs to mind is their usefulness in preventing and treating scurvy.. could be important in a seafaring nation.... Elsewhere, Jon recalls Aemon telling him that a ration of limes /juice would prevent the loosening of the teeth, etc. for the NW brothers. Lemons, limes, take your pick.)

Since the Mercy chapter, I've begun to entertain some even darker possibilities. As Veltigar mentioned, the Sealord of the marriage pact could be accused of meddling in foreign affairs.. and the disapproval of King Robert, firmly entrenched in Westeros, could have had massive effect on Braavosi trade.

In the Mercy chapter ,

Phario Forel has written one play in which a fat merchant shits on the head of the Sealord as he passes below in his barge. and we're told that commoner and Sealord alike laughed to see it. I think that's because the current Sealord

replaced the Sealord in the play. Otherwise, why would he be seen to laugh at, or mock his own office. The merchant is fat. Braavos is a mercantile state. I imagine the merchants are a fairly "weighty" faction. Forel seems to write plays with real political content, whether comedy or drama..and he has another play featuring an Archon and his daughter ... also connected to the marriage pact?

;)

And on an even darker note.. Robert has not been satisfied with having his potential rivals simply deposed (witness his later attempts against Dany and her unborn child). He may have wanted more than Viserys' and Dany's ouster from Braavos. This would really have put the Sealord and Braavos in an uncomfortable position.. Robert wouldn't even know about the pact, just that Darry and kids are in Braavos and being supported by the Sealord, or someone .. but appease him, and you alienate Doran, who also could play havoc with trade.

So the children were turned out and left to fend for themselves, but I have to wonder if the knives didn't come out early.. and whether the Sealord's and Darry's death weren't hurried along, a little bit. It would have been awfully convenient.

I'm hoping we'll get to hear about more of Phario's plays.

[jobmartell]

Daenerys's Own WHEN receive the letter Quentyn given: THIS was signed in bravíos at home Door matter roja.Este matter f f is the mystery of the UN is not turned themselves continue to create jobs because of this.

This. Of course!

[Winterfell Resident]

I don't believe the red door with the lemon tree that Daenerys is referring to is in Dorne. I believe it is in Braavos as she initially indicated.

My reason is that Dorne is the only place in "WESTEROS" that has lemons. It does not say that Dorne is the only place in the "WORLD" that has lemon trees.

Also, I believe it was quoted from one of the characters that Dorne is the only place in "Westeros" that has lemons. I believe that this was in the first book "A Game of Thrones".

[Lord Wraith]

@Veltigar:

For my part, I've never disputed the idea that a determined person could possibly grow a lemon tree in Dorne. The argument isn't that it's physically impossible to grow a lemon tree in Dorne. The argument is that, textually, there are many references to lemons being in/from Dorne, no references to lemons being in/from Braavos, and a couple of references of lemon/citrus trees *not* being in Braavos. (Other than Dany's memory, of course.)

Also consider that Amsterdam is also a city famous for its canals and culture--and it's more similar to Braavos in terms of climate, both political and weather-related.

That's the thing that gets me. While I'm sure its feasible to have been a lemon tree in Braavos why are there all these references to Dorne and lemons if it wasn't important?

This debate is getting too spirited. Someone should ask GRRM. Its not a major spoiler and he'd just need to say 'yes' or 'no'

Is there a 1800 ASKMARTN?

I never took lemongate seriously... And then I read the Alayne chapter.

Now I don't know, but what does this lead to exactly? It's certainly an intriguing detail, but as far as I know, nothing much can be deduced from it.

The rational conclusion at this point would seem to be that Dany was housed in the Sealord's palace, and that this is why the lemon tree is important, because it links her to Braavosi politics.

An alternative is that the detail is here to show her memories are unreliable... Which means there is something else she remembers incorrectly (or has forgotten). Now THAT could be a game changer.

Then you should read the mercy chapter where two guards in Braavos talk about how lemons aren't grown in Braavos. Can't imagine why its there...

[Mladen]

I was hoping you'd post the map again, so I got a reply all ready for you, but someone beat you to it.

And as usual, the response is so senseless. Again, until people believing this theory actually give us something to debate instead ad nauseum repeating some mantra about no lemons in Braavos, this theory can't be properly debated. Until that happy day...

[Lady Blizzardborn]

And as usual, the response is so senseless. Again, until people believing this theory actually give us something to debate instead ad nauseum repeating some mantra about no lemons in Braavos, this theory can't be properly debated. Until that happy day...

Perhaps Dany loved lemons so much, that Ser Willam had some imported and glued them to the tree outside her window for her nameday.

[Mladen]

Perhaps Dany loved lemons so much, that Ser Willam had some imported and glued them to the tree outside her window for her nameday.

As Dr. Pepper once noted, do we even know that Dany was drinking lemonade or have eaten lemoncakes out of lemons from that tree? Lemon trees can grow in some rather harsh conditions, only then, there are no fruits.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

As Dr. Pepper once noted, do we even know that Dany was drinking lemonade or have eaten lemoncakes out of lemons from that tree? Lemon trees can grow in some rather harsh conditions, only then, there are no fruits.

I actually mentioned that up-thread a bit. She says lemon tree, but I don't recall any mention of it actually bearing fruit.

[Victarion Chainbreaker]

I actually mentioned that up-thread a bit. She says lemon tree, but I don't recall any mention of it actually bearing fruit.

Wouldn't a lemon tree without lemons simply be a tree? Without fruit, why would Dany specifcally remember it being a lemon tree?

[Rippounet]

Then you should read the mercy chapter where two guards in Braavos talk about how lemons aren't grown in Braavos. Can't imagine why its there...

I did. For some reason it was the Alayne chapter which really changed my mind, because the reference to lemons -and Dorne- was much more obvious -for me anyway. I regularly miss things on my first reading, but in the Alayne chapter it's really glaring. In the Mercy chapter it was more... Subtle. And potentially easier to dismiss as well.

The combination of the two is really troubling, but I'm still not sure where this leads us. Every theory I've read on the subject seems crackpot, and anything I come up with on my own is even worse.

[Dorian Martell]

:lmao: I absolutely love that new term! :cheers:

One question: where else in this world do lemons grow? It can't JUST be Dorne. This discussion always gets into the Braavos and Dorne camps, but I'd love to see someone argue, say the Tyroshi lemon theory. It would add flavor to the conversation.

Suzanna Stormborn, I can't wait til Dany discovers Amaericos and builds the house with the red door in the Planetos equivalent of Tennesee. ;)

ETA: had a brain-wave...Dany remembers a lemon tree outside her window BUT did it actually have any lemons growing on it? Sometimes you can grow a tropical tree in a non-tropical climate--it just won't produce decent (or sometimes any) fruit.

If you can get peaches in the Reach you can get citrus there too

[Dorian Martell]

I DP'd this thread

[Mladen]

Wouldn't a lemon tree without lemons simply be a tree? Without fruit, why would Dany specifcally remember it being a lemon tree?

Believe it or not, there are more types of trees ;)

[Victarion Chainbreaker]

Lemons can grow in any of the southern Free Cities (Volantis, Tyrosh, Lys, and Myr) but those of us who don't believe the lemon tree was in Braavos tend to focus on Dorne because that's where George focuses on. Lemons are associated with Dorne over and over again in the text. Also, there are a lot of hanging threads in Dorne (Ashara Dayne's "death," why is Edric Dayne named after Ned, why is Darkstar the most dangerous man in Dorne, why does Doran's master plan apparently suck) that indicate some big mystery.