The true location of Dany's house with the red door

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Well it certainly might explain the utter disdain Viserys has for Dany. Granted he's a huge asshole and might have treated her this way anyway, but if Viserys knew she was not in fact his sister but he had to go through the pretense of treating her as his sister, this may have contributed to the way he viewed her. If you go back through Thrones, the only time Viserys calls her sister is when he is preparing to present her to Drogo, and at the end when he realizes he's about to be killed and he pleads for her help. Thus, the two times he needs her to help him get something. Every other time he refers to her as "you" or "slut". While Viserys seems to have a respect for his older brother, he has no respect for Dany whatsoever, though she is also supposedly Blood of the Dragon.

Then how about the time Viserys stated that, had Dany been born earlier, the war wouldn't have happened because Rhaegar would have married her? Why would Viserys argue such things when Dany isn't his (or Rhaegar's) sister?

[Ser Walter of AShwood]

To get back at something

George has created a world where lemons are clearly out of place in Braavos,

Really? When I look at the map, Braavos is on the same line as the Vale of Arryn.

If I now read the alayne chapter, I can read the following:

The cake had required every lemon in the Vale, but Petyr had promised that he would send to Dorne for more

This means that lemons can grow in the Vale, and thus also in Braavos, since Braavos is only slightly more north then the Vale (heck, it is just as far north as Baelish keep, which is at the end of the Vale).

So please, stop lemongate, Daenerys never was in Dorne, the house with the red door is where she remembered it is.

[Victarion Chainbreaker]

http://www.fantasticmaps.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/Sealords-Palace.png

this is an official image of the Sealords palace. Complete with Fields of green, green houses, trees and a small house with a red roof (and probably a red door)

It took me a while of looking at that map but I finally found the red door and lemon tree.

Nobody is arguing that that plant life cannot grow in Braavos.

It's more likely those are cages for the menagerie that was mentioned in the books, not greenhouses that are pure fan-fiction.

This means that lemons can grow in the Vale.

No, this establishes that the Vale imports their lemons from Dorne.

[wefollowthecomet]

It took me a while of looking at that map but I finally found the red door and lemon tree.

Nobody is arguing that that plant life cannot grow in Braavos.

I admire your commitment to the theory.

[Ser Walter of AShwood]

Agreed, nobody is arguing that plant life cannot grow in Braavos, but, as I've shown in my previous response, you argued that lemon trees are clearly out of place in Braavos.

The Alayne chapter shows that this is not the case, lemons can grow plenty (not abundantly) in the Vale, and the Vale and Braavos are equally north. Therefore lemon trees are not clearly out of place.

No, this established that the Vale imports their lemons from Dorne.

Nice, you completely ignored the part that said it took all the lemons in the Vale...

I admire your commitment to the theory

:agree:

[Victarion Chainbreaker]

Nice, you completely ignored the part that said it took all the lemons in the Vale...

:agree:

Sigh...

There is no information about where the lemons in the cake were grown. Them being "in" the Vale in no way equates to them being "from" the Vale. The only information to be proven from that passage is that the Vale imports lemons from Dorne.

If all the lemons in the Vale combined were just enough to make one single cake, then one could only logically infer that lemons don't grow in the Vale. Is it possible with the right expensive equipment? Sure. Is it far more like that they simply import their tiny store of lemons? Absolutely.

There, is that enough spelling out the obvious for you?

[Frey family reunion]

Then how about the time Viserys stated that, had Dany been born earlier, the war wouldn't have happened because Rhaegar would have married her? Why would Viserys argue such things when Dany isn't his (or Rhaegar's) sister?

You do raise a good point. The easy answer would be Viserys is just being an asshole to Dany, but of course that argument cuts against my own theory as well..

[Dorian Martell]

It took me a while of looking at that map but I finally found the red door and lemon tree.

Nobody is arguing that that plant life cannot grow in Braavos.

It's more likely those are cages for the menagerie that was mentioned in the books, not greenhouses that are pure fan-fiction.

My greenhouse theory is just as plausible as dany being raised in secret in dorne by targ allies until she was 6ish and then for no reason being dumped in the free cities to wander essos with her brother

[Jak Scaletongue]

Sigh...

There is no information about where the lemons in the cake were grown. True. Them being "in" the Vale in no way equates to them being "from" the Vale. Semantics, but I'll give it to you. The only information to be proven from that passage is that the Vale imports lemons from Dorne. Wrong - the only information is that the Vale *can* import lemons from Dorne. Not that they have or will, but that the option is available.

If all the lemons in the Vale combined were just enough to make one single GIANT cake, then one could only logically infer that lemons don't grow in the Vale. How? All I can infer is that Baelish is going to use the *last* of the lemons in the Vale to make a giant cake to impress a girl. Is it possible with the right expensive equipment? Sure. Only thing expensive would be decent glass - you don't really need "equipment," just a glass room and a lemon tree. Is it far more like that they simply import their tiny store of lemons? Absolutely. I think it's far more likely that it's practically winter and besides the last of the winter wheat and some other autumn veggies, nothing is currently growing in the Vale, so IF they need more lemons, they can import them from Dorne. Nothing there implies they can't grow them in spring and summer. Lemons aren't really autumn fruits, so I'm not exactly surprised that there aren't any growing there this close to winter.

There, is that enough spelling out the obvious for you? No need to be snotty - you've missed a couple of "obvious" things too, like the fact that it's a HUGE lemoncake, not a "single" lemoncake. It would require a sh*t-ton of lemons.

It is winter - or rather, autumn was lingering (I don't have the exact quote). The cake probably used up the *last* of the lemons available in the Vale. So all the lemons *left* in the Vale were enough to make a single (giant) cake. A cake which could probably be split into dozens and dozens of average size lemon cakes. There's no evidence in that passage to prove that ALL their lemons come from Dorne, just that if they need more they'll have to send for some in Dorne. And since the growing season is pretty much over everywhere except the southern-most reaches of Westeros, the Vale can't grow any more in bulk. Though if some lords have their own glass houses they could have a tree or two for themselves. I'm not sure why I'm supposed to infer that the Vale can't grow lemons because Baelish is using the last of them to create a big, huge, giant lemoncake to impress a girl. It's a big, huge, giant cake - it's not a "single" cake. Have you ever seen Cake Boss, or something like that? In order to make a big, giant cake they make lots and lots of normal sized cakes and build them up together to create a big, giant cake. To make something as big as described, they would have used bushels (barrels? how does one pack lemons?) of lemons. Logically, using that many lemons, and having them readily available, implies that the Vale *can* grow lemons - but Baelish is using the last of them to have this cake made. *If* they need more, he'll send to Dorne. It can't be a tiny store of lemons if they can make a big, huge, giant cake out of them.

ETA: bolded parts

[The Mother of The Others]

If Stormy has been mindfucked to forget her origin details, the red door house exists only in her mind perhaps. There'd be no earthly place to go back to to find it or the feeling of home. Home is where the heart is and her heart repairs back to this door which may be an illusion. The doorway to truths she wasn't ready for as a child or truths which the schemers who built her wished to conceal forever. It may be her Howland Reed bombshell equivalent. Where she grew up doesn't intrigue me as much as who locked part of her mind on one side of that door, which side is she on (is she trapped inside the red door unable to reach full potential or is she on this side of it with us unable to get through the door to the truth for some good reason such as her greatness is built on the foundation of this illusion which is holding her together).

[Hos the Hostage]

There is a good chance the lemon tree was in the Sealord's palace. But what disturbs me is that lemons are too frequently mentioned, associated with Dorne.

There might be lemon trees in Vale, but does that necessarily mean there will be lemon trees in Braavos, just because they have similar latitudes? Doesn't the altitude also matters in deciding local flora? Except for in Seaload's palace, there are very few trees/plants in Braavos. That's why firewood was so costly (Sam chapters in Feast). Nothing of the sort is said about the Vale, and my impression is its a hilly place with lot of trees and plants, with very different geographical features from Braavos.

[Veltigar]

not greenhouses that are pure fan-fiction.

Sweetie, have you forgotten about the glass gardens of WF? And the fact that WF imported that technology from the Free Cities (like Jon wants to do for the NW). And this of course ignores the fact that you don't even need a greenhouse to keep lemon/orange trees all year around. You only need an orangerie, which is much easier to accomplish technology wise.

Orangeries which I remind you (for the one billionth time) were invented in the city states of Renaissance Italy, the clearest inspiration source for the Free Cities. Another tradition in those city states which George incorporated is that the wealthy tried to showcase their wealth and oppulence by constructing the most lush gardens and menageries, with all sort of outlandish plants and animals (real popular in the real word where citrus trees).

The Sea Lord's mance falls right into that tradition, as can be seen on the map from Lands of Ice and Fire and the few facts we have on his menagerie. And since the guy even has a velociraptor/Deinonychus from the deep jungles of Sothyros in his menagerie, he can certainly afford a few measly lemon trees (or more likely lemon seeds, which can be transported in a man's pocket) from nearby Dorne.

Furthermore, in our world we have lemon trees that are able to stay outside all year if the temperature in winter doesn't drop below 20 degrees Fahrenheit (which is about -7 degrees Celcius). Given that the Sea Lord's lemon trees would only be outside during the long summer, with a hord of personnel and a plain old-fashioned orangerie taking care of them during winter, the growing of lemon trees is remarkably easy for someone with a lot of money like the Sea Lord and the other rich families of Braavos.

[Frey family reunion]

It is winter - or rather, autumn was lingering (I don't have the exact quote). The cake probably used up the *last* of the lemons available in the Vale. So all the lemons *left* in the Vale were enough to make a single (giant) cake. A cake which could probably be split into dozens and dozens of average size lemon cakes. There's no evidence in that passage to prove that ALL their lemons come from Dorne, just that if they need more they'll have to send for some in Dorne. And since the growing season is pretty much over everywhere except the southern-most reaches of Westeros, the Vale can't grow any more in bulk. Though if some lords have their own glass houses they could have a tree or two for themselves. I'm not sure why I'm supposed to infer that the Vale can't grow lemons because Baelish is using the last of them to create a big, huge, giant lemoncake to impress a girl. It's a big, huge, giant cake - it's not a "single" cake. Have you ever seen Cake Boss, or something like that? In order to make a big, giant cake they make lots and lots of normal sized cakes and build them up together to create a big, giant cake. To make something as big as described, they would have used bushels (barrels? how does one pack lemons?) of lemons. Logically, using that many lemons, and having them readily available, implies that the Vale *can* grow lemons - but Baelish is using the last of them to have this cake made. *If* they need more, he'll send to Dorne. It can't be a tiny store of lemons if they can make a big, huge, giant cake out of them.

ETA: bolded parts

I'm sorry, but if an entire region only has enough lemons to bake one cake (I don't care how big the cake) then that region probably does not grow their own lemons. I think it's obvious that any lemons in the Vale were imported elsewhere. Regardless, Braavos by the description given to us by GRRM is not as fertile as the Vale. There is a reason Martin has equated lemon trees with Dorne, and gone out of his way to indicate that citrus does not grown in Braavos.

[Mladen]

Jesus... Again with this?

1. During Dany's stay in Braavos, it was the beginning of long summer, so the weather we have seen in AFFC (beginning of winter) and the one Dany was is quite different.

2. Originally, Braavos was much lower. The obvious parallel is Venice who is rather warm place.

3. The believers of this theory still fail to answer what the hell was Sealord of Braavos was doing when the marriage between Arianne and Viserys was signed.

All and all, just like every bad crackpot, this theory has no purpose. When people who believe in it, find some purpose to it, we will talk... Until that happy day... No, thank you.

[Frey family reunion]

If Stormy has been mindfucked to forget her origin details, the red door house exists only in her mind perhaps. There'd be no earthly place to go back to to find it or the feeling of home. Home is where the heart is and her heart repairs back to this door which may be an illusion. The doorway to truths she wasn't ready for as a child or truths which the schemers who built her wished to conceal forever. It may be her Howland Reed bombshell equivalent. Where she grew up doesn't intrigue me as much as who locked part of her mind on one side of that door, which side is she on (is she trapped inside the red door unable to reach full potential or is she on this side of it with us unable to get through the door to the truth for some good reason such as her greatness is built on the foundation of this illusion which is holding her together).

If Dany's origin is not as she believes, then I think the main relevance is she may be confronted with the fact that Westeros is not her "birthright" that she always believed it was. In that case, she'll have to decide if she's going to come in as a conqueror as opposed to a liberator coming to reclaim her birthright.

[Lost Melnibonean]

Agreed, nobody is arguing that plant life cannot grow in Braavos, but, as I've shown in my previous response, you argued that lemon trees are clearly out of place in Braavos.

The Alayne chapter shows that this is not the case, lemons can grow plenty (not abundantly) in the Vale, and the Vale and Braavos are equally north. Therefore lemon trees are not clearly out of place.

Nice, you completely ignored the part that said it took all the lemons in the Vale...

:agree:

Actually, the quote does not establish that the lemons in the Vale were produced in the Vale.

[cgf]

Jesus... Again with this?

1. During Dany's stay in Braavos, it was the beginning of long summer, so the weather we have seen in AFFC (beginning of winter) and the one Dany was is quite different.

2. Originally, Braavos was much lower. The obvious parallel is Venice who is rather warm place.

3. The believers of this theory still fail to answer what the hell was Sealord of Braavos was doing when the marriage between Arianne and Viserys was signed.

All and all, just like every bad crackpot, this theory has no purpose. When people who believe in it, find some purpose to it, we will talk... Until that happy day... No, thank you.

We don't have an answer for #3 whether lemongate has merit or not, do we?

[Mithras]

If Dany's origin is not as she believes, then I think the main relevance is she may be confronted with the fact that Westeros is not her "birthright" that she always believed it was. In that case, she'll have to decide if she's going to come in as a conqueror as opposed to a liberator coming to reclaim her birthright.

Aerys destroyed the legitimacy of the Targaryen reign in Westeros. No Westerosi pledged fealty to Dany. Westeros is not Dany's birthright. If she wants to claim it, she has to do it Aegon's way.

Therefore, lemongate does not have to happen for this confrontation to take place.

[Blind Beth the Cat Lady]

Really nice catch, OP.

[Jak Scaletongue]

I'm sorry, but if an entire region only has enough lemons to bake one cake (I don't care how big the cake) then that region probably does not grow their own lemons. I think it's obvious that any lemons in the Vale were imported elsewhere. Regardless, Braavos by the description given to us by GRRM is not as fertile as the Vale. There is a reason Martin has equated lemon trees with Dorne, and gone out of his way to indicate that citrus does not grown in Braavos.

Well, that's your interpretation and you've already read mine. We can understand it different ways, but until GRRM gives us more/better clues - neither of us is wrong (or right ;)). I, personally, don't see that they were imported from elsewhere, it's just an available option. Considering LF is posting men at the docks to prevent grain from being sold, I doubt LF is wasting his money buying Sansa lemons from Dorne by the bushel load just for a cake. But again, that's my interpretation.

As for this Braavos stuff - I don't find it inconceivable that Darry (or one of the other four who helped them escape) had a rich and powerful friend in Braavos. One who could afford a lemon tree. Just one lemon tree is all she mentions. Easily could have been found in the garden of a rich and powerful family. Whether it was the Sealord is still up for debate, but someone rich and powerful was able to keep them safe and out of Robert's reach for 5 years. And that person/family apparently had a single lemon tree growing beside a window.

I think it was in this thread where someone pointed out the healers in Braavos live at the "red house" or something. IF they were there (maybe cause Darry was sick), they would have had lemons growing, if only for medicinal purposes. Lots of sailors, lots of scurvy - lemon, limes, oranges are all must-haves if you want to avoid scurvy. Not to mention disinfecting purposes.