Dany's Ruling Skills

[SeanF]

You don't know that they're were tortured to death, or that they were raped, or that they were underage. All we know is she had a man's daughters "questioned sharply". That's it. Given Dany's stance on rape, and her soft spot for children I find these suggestions unlikely. But hey, anything to make her look worse than she is.

As quite often, it would be nice if Martin let us know what happened. He leaves us to speculate. One big gap is how the Shavepate finished up in her service. He's a Great Master, who presumably saw an opportunity to advance himself.

I think he's complete scum. And, it's problematic that Dany took him into her service. I don't think it would have ended well for those two girls, in his hands. I think he and his goons would have had their fun.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

You don't know that they're were tortured to death, or that they were raped, or that they were underage. All we know is she had a man's daughters "questioned sharply". That's it. Given Dany's stance on rape, and her soft spot for children I find these suggestions unlikely. But hey, anything to make her look worse than she is.

Well, considering that there was no confession, and the Shavepate doesn't look like a guy who'd let somebody go after three repetitions like it was the law in some European countries, they are damn likely to be dead.

Considering what we know of torture not only on Planetos but Earth as well, rape is damn likely to be involved.

Considering that they were living with their father and neither husbands nor boyfriends mentioned, they are damn likely to be pre-puberty.

[Lord of the Vale]

If she stops leting her emotions control her, she could become A okay ruler, but at the present she sucks

[RoamingRonin]

Well, considering that there was no confession, and the Shavepate doesn't look like a guy who'd let somebody go after three repetitions like it was the law in some European countries, they are damn likely to be dead.

What are you even talking about.

Considering what we know of torture not only on Planetos but Earth as well, rape is damn likely to be involved.

What are you even talking about?

Considering that they were living with their father and neither husbands nor boyfriends mentioned, they are damn likely to be pre-puberty.

We've been over this a thousand times: there are plenty of other women in this series that still live with their parents. Theon met one in his first chapter in Clash. Kojja Mo is another.

To add: What we do know is that Dany had people tortured and they gave no useful information. Why is that not enough? Why must they also be children, raped and murdered? GRRM does not shy away from mentioning atrocities, even when children are involved (Saltpans). You don't like Dany? That's fine. But adding all these horrible details is beyond pointless. It's petty.

[Nictarion]

Well, considering that there was no confession, and the Shavepate doesn't look like a guy who'd let somebody go after three repetitions like it was the law in some European countries, they are damn likely to be dead.

Considering what we know of torture not only on Planetos but Earth as well, rape is damn likely to be involved.

Considering that they were living with their father and neither husbands nor boyfriends mentioned, they are damn likely to be pre-puberty.

Yet, there is no suggestion of that at all in this case. You know where it is suggested though, with Clayton Suggs. It is said by one of Stannis' own men Suggs specifically enjoys helping the torturers (which means there's several) on DS when it involves young women. No speculation there. We're told it happens. Where's your outrage about that? Because it's never brought up as a criticism against Stannis, but only as a defensive of Dany that other leaders (and not just pyschos like Ramsay) are guilty of the same thing.

[El Guapo]

When an army made up of ice zombies that are killed by fire is at the gates.

Jon Snow even wishes he had a dragon or 2 at the Wall.

I wonder why Martin chose to have Jon think about that, clearly not to forshadow Dany helping fight the Others.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

What are you even talking about.

Torture ends in three potential ways: Either a confession (would have been reported to Dany), declaration of innocence after a limit according to the crime (Dany never set one and the Shavepate doesn't care) or death.

What are you even talking about?

"Ripping out her nether lips with burning tongs." - "Heat it up and touch your cock." - "Wash her private parts with lye." - Three quotes concerning details of torture.

We've been over this a thousand times: there are plenty of other women in this series that still live with their parents. Theon met one in his first chapter in Clash. Kojja Mo is another.

And all of them with boyfriends at least. Why weren't those arrested, if they existed?

To add: What we do know is that Dany had people tortured and they gave no useful information. Why is that not enough? Why must they also be children, raped and murdered? GRRM does not shy away from mentioning atrocities, even when children are involved (Saltpans). You don't like Dany? That's fine. But adding all these horrible details is beyond pointless. It's petty.

No. It's not shying away like Dany does. She willfully closes her eyes to the horrors she unleashes, and the POV bias transfers that to the readers.

Yet, there is no suggestion of that at all in this case. You know where it is suggested though, with Clayton Suggs. It is said by one of Stannis' own men Suggs specifically enjoys helping the torturers (which means there's several) on DS when it involves young women. No speculation there. We're told it happens. Where's your outrage about that? Because it's never brought up as a criticism against Stannis, but only as a defensive of Dany that other leaders (and not just pyschos like Ramsay) are guilty of the same thing.

Nice strawmanning. This discussion is not about Stannis. If you want to discuss him or Clayton Suggs personally, I would bring it up.

[TheNorthRemember]

To govern well should have used the dragons as threat.Es as modern weapons atómic.Ella countries should threaten to drop them if they followed the asesinatos.También should have learned to ride dragons in those days.If she learns to ride dragon could Meeren fly once a day and remind them who's boss.

[RoamingRonin]

Bright Blue Eyes: Dany does admit that the Shavepate's tortures have yielded useless information and she put in end to his practices. People are put to the question all of the time in Westeros. Some times it works, some times it doesn't. Her use of the Shavepate seems to be a standard practice. She doesn't shy away from anything. When she has the 163 killed, she rides among their corpses. When she sees the first crucified child, she demands none be cut down so she can look on them. When she first sees the horror of a Dothraki raid, she steels herself and watches it -- that sparks her decision to end cruel practices among the Dothraki.

Are any of these quotes from Dany chapters? I know the third one is from a Brienne chapter so what purpose does it serve here?

The ship captain's daughter, Kojja Mo and Lollys Stokeworth were all single. Kyra was also single. Nice try.

And all of them with boyfriends at least. Why weren't those arrested, if they existed?

Because they don't exist.

(For some reason I can quote your whole post. Probably because you only modified mine for your reply.)

To govern well should have used the dragons as threat.Es as modern weapons atómic.Ella countries should threaten to drop them if they followed the asesinatos.También should have learned to ride dragons in those days.If she learns to ride dragon could Meeren fly once a day and remind them who's boss.

Hell yeah.

[Hodor's Dragon]

I'm happy to see a fair number of people standing up for Dany's leadership skills in this thread. Usually, in a thread like this, all you see is vast hordes of "Dany is an awful, stupid ruler, the worst possible ruler evar" stuff.

But really, the snap judgments that she is a bad ruler are totally without basis. Of course everything hasn't been peaches 'n cream in Meereen, but what do you expect with a foreigner coming in and facing strongly- and intelligently-organized secret opposition with a regional power base and immense wealth to pull from? Look at the obvious modern analogy, the U.S. in Iraq. Look at Russia in Afghanistan. Her problems are even worse. Did you really expect a 14/15-year-old girl with little formal education to come in and snap her fingers and solve them? Really??? That's fantasy-land.

She faces terribly hard, nearly insoluble problems, but she has worked to solve them tirelessly and intelligently. Quite a few of her decisions haven't worked out, and there a couple I didn't agree with (crucifying the 163), but none of them - none of them - were stupid. Every decision had a solid justification.

I think she would be an excellent ruler. She has an amazing ability to inspire followers - she is clearly the most inspirational leader in the known world. She's very intelligent, and learns from her mistakes: she's the most self-analytic POV character in the books, and there is no close 2nd place. And she is getting wonderful experience at a very young age.

I do say would be an excellent ruler, though, instead of will be. I'm with the crowd who thinks Dany will likely win the war against the Others and die in the process.

[hodorisfaclessman]

she struggles to know what to do with the former slaves now they are free.......the obvious solution being shown to her by the pitfighters ie former masters now pay for services

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Ned holds Theon hostage under threat of death the majority of his life for his fathers actions and future actions. Does he become immoral for doing this?

Did I ever said that Ned was right? Also I hope that you understand that keeping someone hostage =/= torturing and most likely raping little girls.

[Kaibaman]

I'm happy to see a fair number of people standing up for Dany's leadership skills in this thread. Usually, in a thread like this, all you see is vast hordes of "Dany is an awful, stupid ruler, the worst possible ruler evar" stuff.

But really, the snap judgments that she is a bad ruler are totally without basis. Of course everything hasn't been peaches 'n cream in Meereen, but what do you expect with a foreigner coming in and facing strongly- and intelligently-organized secret opposition with a regional power base and immense wealth to pull from? Look at the obvious modern analogy, the U.S. in Iraq. Look at Russia in Afghanistan. Her problems are even worse. Did you really expect a 14/15-year-old girl with little formal education to come in and snap her fingers and solve them? Really??? That's fantasy-land.

She faces terribly hard, nearly insoluble problems, but she has worked to solve them tirelessly and intelligently. Quite a few of her decisions haven't worked out, and there a couple I didn't agree with (crucifying the 163), but none of them - none of them - were stupid. Every decision had a solid justification.

I think she would be an excellent ruler. She has an amazing ability to inspire followers - she is clearly the most inspirational leader in the known world. She's very intelligent, and learns from her mistakes: she's the most self-analytic POV character in the books, and there is no close 2nd place. And she is getting wonderful experience at a very young age.

I do say would be an excellent ruler, though, instead of will be. I'm with the crowd who thinks Dany will likely win the war against the Others and die in the process.

Agreed out of all the characters in the book she's by far the most introspective. Despite the fact that she gets disparaged a lot by critics, there is no denying that the challenges she faced are staggering for even the most skilled rulers. I agree that she may have bitten off more than she could chew when she took the moral high ground and started a crusade against slavery. But the fact is she could have quit her campaign of liberation any day and sailed to Westeros (which I suppose is what many of you would have wanted). The fact that she has stayed has been quite undeterred in the face of such dilemma shows that she is a very mature and moral person. And she has a lot of integrity which is more than I could say for many of the so called heroes in ASOIAF. I don't know about most of you but in my opinion it takes guts to do what she's been doing for the past three books despite all her shortcomings.

[BitsOfBrains]

Well, considering that there was no confession, and the Shavepate doesn't look like a guy who'd let somebody go after three repetitions like it was the law in some European countries, they are damn likely to be dead.

Considering what we know of torture not only on Planetos but Earth as well, rape is damn likely to be involved.

Considering that they were living with their father and neither husbands nor boyfriends mentioned, they are damn likely to be pre-puberty.

Pfff, you and your logic.