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[Book Spoilers] EP509 Discussion

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My first reaction to last night was not to watch the show any more and perhaps even not to read the books; I overreacted and was wrong. We have to persist. Last night though was a terrible, devastating blow to many readers and viewers and that should not be minimized


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What about if you all stop worrying whether I watch or not the show and try to use better defences than "if you don't like it, don't see it!".

Again, GoT is a very popular show that has a terrible portrayal of women. It deserves criticism and hard. If I see an offensive billboard on the street, I'm suppose to simply shut my eyes? No. Believe me. I live in a place with shows that are 1000% more offensives than GoT. For years, people has been saying "if you don't like it, don't watch it, then!". And guess what? We have even more offensive shows that portray racism and homophobia in a positive light and people still says "if you don't like it, don't see it!".

Looks like we got a crusader.

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I'll be really curious to see what the ratings are going forward. D&D must be REALLY confident in themselves, because they're REALLY pushing their luck this season.

-They did the Sansa thing, which has been "controversial" to say the least.

-They've done the Dorne plotline, which has just flat-out been disliked in general.

-Now they've done this.

I'm wondering if, should this continue, some people are just going to go "ok I'm done. Enough is enough."

The "should this continue" is funny! A little boy is thrown out a window and crippled in order to cover up incest...in the first episode of the first season. Since then, it's been one atrocity and outrage after another. Five years in, anyone who says, "Okay, that's it. Enough is enough" at this point gets a big LOL from me. You're not kidding anyone (the general "you," here): You'll stick around for the next even more unthinkable atrocity, and you'll howl with even greater outrage.

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My first reaction to last night was not to watch the show any more and perhaps even not to read the books; I overreacted and was wrong. We have to persist. Last night though was a terrible, devastating blow to many readers and viewers and that should not be minimized

I want to say "relax, it's just a show" but I still havent recovered from Mass Effect. That music, those feels...

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I understand the outrage and was thoroughly disappointed for killing off sweet Shireen, but that only makes Stannis more likely to emerge as a winner of the iron throne eventually (if he doesn't die next Sunday). Regardless of how the sacrifice will proceed in the books, the plan is to portray Shireen as Nissa Nissa in a very warped, fucked up way. She has to die for AA to be reborn (somehow linked to Jon's resurrection)

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As many others have said, I think Thorne is basically Severus Snape. Total dick, but not a "bad guy." I hate Ollie's character, not in itself like others do (though he can be obnoxious), but because book!Bowen Marsh was a better character for that role.

I think it clear that one out of Ollie and Thorne has to do stabby-stabby and the other has to try to save him.

But Thorne doing Stabby and Ollie saving him looks most likely to me. FTW is a betrayal of Jon by the Watch. So it has to be led by the most senior members, not the most junior if he is even a member.

There is a strong hint in the books that Thorne may have written the letter. Certainly it isn't from Ramsay, a man who kills anyone who uses the word 'Bastard' in his presence.

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Amidst all the inexplicable critical acclaim that I've been reading for this episode, here's a refreshing feminist critique by one of the top TV critics in the business:

http://www.salon.com/2015/06/08/game_of_thrones_recap_there_is_no_commodity_in_westeros_more_valuable_and_more_worthless_than_a_girl/

I don't entirely agree with her assessment but it's refreshing to see a professional reviewer hold D&D's feet to the fire.

Complete hogwash

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Amidst all the inexplicable critical acclaim that I've been reading for this episode, here's a refreshing feminist critique by one of the top TV critics in the business:

http://www.salon.com/2015/06/08/game_of_thrones_recap_there_is_no_commodity_in_westeros_more_valuable_and_more_worthless_than_a_girl/

I don't entirely agree with her assessment but it's refreshing to see a professional reviewer hold D&D's feet to the fire.

what i dislike is that i get the read from that that if shireen was a young boy like rickon or robin she would have no problem with the scene...

Edited by 239JMFL34109

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The "should this continue" is funny! A little boy is thrown out a window and crippled in order to cover up incest...in the first episode of the first season. Since then, it's been one atrocity and outrage after another. Five years in, anyone who says, "Okay, that's it. Enough is enough" at this point gets a big LOL from me. You're not kidding anyone (the general "you," here): You'll stick around for the next even more unthinkable atrocity, and you'll howl with even greater outrage.

And that's the point. It's one think that have dark/horrible crap happen to people. It's another thing to have nothing but unrelenting misery all the time. NOTHING good EVER happens to ANYONE who isn't evil or vile. Especially since the show apparently has forgotten how to execute said scenes in believable/convincing manners. They failed with Sansa, they've repeatedly failed with the Dorne, and they failed with this as well. So they cannot even execute their horrible crap WELL, which is even worse.

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I understand the outrage and was thoroughly disappointed for killing off sweet Shireen, but that only makes Stannis more likely to emerge as a winner of the iron throne eventually (if he doesn't die next Sunday). Regardless of how the sacrifice will proceed in the books, the plan is to portray Shireen as Nissa Nissa in a very warped, fucked up way. She has to die for AA to be reborn (somehow linked to Jon's resurrection)

I'm surprised this hasn't been mentioned much in the latter part of this thread. However, I don't think it was a very warped, fucked up way (aside from the obvious child angle). Nissa Nissa's murder was itself very warped and fucked up, so really they're on a similar level. Because it's a past legend, rather than something happening on screen, I suppose the emotional impact isn't as heavy for viewers, but Stannis hasn't acted that differently in this regard from a legendary hero.

Edited by Adeimantus

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I think it clear that one out of Ollie and Thorne has to do stabby-stabby and the other has to try to save him.

But Thorne doing Stabby and Ollie saving him looks most likely to me. FTW is a betrayal of Jon by the Watch. So it has to be led by the most senior members, not the most junior if he is even a member.

There is a strong hint in the books that Thorne may have written the letter. Certainly it isn't from Ramsay, a man who kills anyone who uses the word 'Bastard' in his presence.

What hint? That he's generally a dick? Also, Ramsay only hates that word when it refers to himself.

Edited by lojzelote

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Hey guys. I have this theory. I mean, it's a little out there, but hear me out. You know the boy whose family was killed by the wildlings so he took the black and is now Jon's steward, Olly? Well I'm getting this vibe that he's going to be one to stab Jon. It was difficult piece together but fortunately I am skilled in deciphering the clever patterns left in by the showrunners and I think all the signs are there. What do you think?

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Hey guys. I have this theory. I mean, it's a little out there, but hear me out. You know the boy whose family was killed by the wildlings so he took the black and is now Jon's steward, Olly? Well I'm getting this vibe that he's going to be one to stab Jon. It was difficult piece together but fortunately I am skilled in deciphering the clever patterns left in by the showrunners and I think all the signs are there. What do you think?

I came to the same conclusion!

I trust my abilities since yesterday, when Shireen burnt to death.

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what i dislike is that i get the read from that that if shireen was a young boy like rickon or robin she would have no problem with the scene...

That's modern day feminism for ya.

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I feel that some of you do not get Stannis. He knows joffrey and his siblings are bastards,hence not the heirs to the throne. So by rights the kingship goes to Stannis. He is just doing as the laws suggest he should do. Renly had no right to declare for the crown since he was the younger brother. What I'm trying to get across is that Stannis is doing his duty, not that he just wants to be King. So no like you said that is not just who Stannis is... just killing family members because he selfishly wants to be king.

I highly doubt Stannis gives the order or just let's it happen. Like multiple people have said Stannis and Shireen are leagues apart. It makes more sense that Mel and Selyse take matters into their own hands. It had also been pointed out that Stannis explicitly states to appoint Shireen as queen should he die.

Even if Stannis is involved at least Grrm will give a better reason than the show gave. And what I gather is that D&D just knew that she got burned.

That is a good point about Stannis that people are definitely missing. Also the fact that he is the only contender whose goal is to unite the realm in order to deal with an existential threat, as opposed to greed, ego, ambition, etc.

But I also think people are forgetting how little they liked Stannis before he showed up at the Wall. He wasn't a good guy, and the only good will generated on his behalf was by virtue of Davos. Then he saves the day at the Wall, treats Jon Snow with respect, pulls a rabbit out of his hat with the mountain clans, and, with Robb gone and Dany doing God-knows-what, there being no one else to really root for, he sort of won people over.

The sacrifice of Shireen is totally consistent with his character. They did his character a disservice when they called it ambition, but he explained his reasoning to Davos when talking about Edric, and he explained it in the show to Shireen when he said there was no choice to be made, he's been charged with a duty whether he likes it or not and if he doesn't fulfill that duty the entire realm suffers.

That said, I think criticisms of how the show presented it and how it presents Stannis in general are totally valid. Especially the fact that, as an earlier post mentioned, Mel was promising him a DRAGON for burning Edric, and all he gets from his own daughter is a thaw? Maybe there's a plot purpose to that, that no dragon waking is what will cause Mel to doubt herself and start wondering about Jon, so I'll bear with them on that one.

But I still see no way that Stannis actually burns Shireen in the book. People are forgetting about Patchface.

I also wonder if this reveal has some bearing on the Jon Snow cliffhanger, and what that might be. If Shireen is sacrificed, he must be out of the picture. I suppose he could be the stone dragon that Shireen's king's blood wakes, but that seems a little too neat.

Aaaand there is that early draft in which Cat and some of the Stark children seek Jon's protection at the Wall, but when he is unwilling to break his vows to help them they wind up with the Wildlings, are attacked by WW, and Cat dies in that attack. I wonder if Selyse and Shireen will take that place, as the Marsh faction will want to turn them over to the Boltons.

Then there is that tid bit about the Others not being able to pass the Wall as long as the NW stays "true". Jon noted that some of the black brothers had taken the red god. Maybe the use of fire magic blood sacrifice at the Wall, with some brothers participating will be the violation that breaks the warding spells, with them being "untrue" to the old powers, or violating the Pact through the use of fire magic.

Just some speculation. I was annoyed when they actually went through with the burning, but I loved the episode as a whole and I'm pretty fired up about what it means for where we're at in the books.

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What hint? That he's generally a dick? Also, Ramsay only hates that word when it refers to himself.

We are told that Ramsay won't hear the word Bastard so he isn't going to use it against Jon.

The pink letter can only really come from Stannis, the Boltons or the Watch. If it is a fake, well Thorne was all ready for it, wasn't he?

Hey guys. I have this theory. I mean, it's a little out there, but hear me out. You know the boy whose family was killed by the wildlings so he took the black and is now Jon's steward, Olly? Well I'm getting this vibe that he's going to be one to stab Jon. It was difficult piece together but fortunately I am skilled in deciphering the clever patterns left in by the showrunners and I think all the signs are there. What do you think?

Yep, it is obvious so its probably not going to happen that way. They have had their obvious moment in episode 9. Shireen was obviously a burner from her first scene. The twist would have been an escape. But lets face it, two escapes in successive episodes are not very likely.

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Not trying to offend or dissuade but..

So I've been thinking:

Dorne-might be more annoyed at the 'Trystane/Sand Snakes' misogyny in 2015,and downplaying Dorne's awesome feminist view in general,more than anything because there's no good reason for it.

Stannis- I could see him getting desperate if had brought Shireen in ADWD,but I think GRRM writing it is the only way I'd believe it

Drogon- so I've worked with/owned harness(sulky-sit behind not on) horses and currently have a stud that I trust more than any horse I've ever had... he'd NEVER put his head down and let me get on his back! But a wild-ish dragon... sure.

Sorry, I had to vent.

EDIT- I'm on my phone, so apologies for awful grammar/ sentence structuring.

Edited by Adam with one D

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We are told that Ramsay won't hear the word Bastard so he isn't going to use it against Jon.

The pink letter can only really come from Stannis, the Boltons or the Watch. If it is a fake, well Thorne was all ready for it, wasn't he?

That's because he's touchy about his status. It humiliates him. I doubt that he cares how Jon or any other bastard feels. In fact, I think it's likely he would try to rub Jon's face in his bastardy, now when Ramsay himself is a Bolton and the Lord of Winterfell.

I really don't think Thorne has anything to do with it. How would he know about the wildling women and Mance, how would he know about Reek? If anybody other than Ramsay wrote it, it was Mance.

Edited by lojzelote

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Hey all it's me again to explain why this episode was terrible! And after a decent last episode, the show quickly returned to being utter garbage. And holy crap was this episode bad.

-WHY DID JON AND THE WILDLINGS MARCH RIGHT UP TO CASTLE BLACKS WALL. I assume Eastwatch no longer exists in the show despite being mentioned before. D&D write all these inconsistencies and logical failures, yet never seem to care.

-Oh look it's Olly again, truly the most amazing and subtle character in the series. D&D are such masters with their original content. Olly is the most important character in this series me thinks given how much he appears

-So it seems they're setting up Jon to (try to) go south to "send stannis supplies and reinforcements" instead of the pink letter. Way to go, D&D, ruining any real tension or stakes in Jon's motivation for breaking the Watch's neutrality.

-Stannis keeping his family around still makes no sense. Non-stupid book Stannis leaves them back at Castle Black because he's again, not dumb

-Doran basically explains why D&D's Dorne-Jaime plot makes NO SENSE, and he isn't the first one to have done this. And once again, Jaime's attempt to "rebuke" the logical failures here is again complete bullshit. This entire plot was completely unnecessary, Doran just gives her up and is clearly willing to maintain peace. So long character journey in the Riverlands, hello Cringe Snakes and XD BEWBS

-Mycrella and Trystane are such shit characters, not surprising since they're both basically D&D creations by this point. Tedious, cliched, irritating, and ultimately useless parodies of their archetypes. Moreover D&D in their infinite wisdom had MASTER PLANNER Doran give (in the show) his only heir over to the Lannisters for LITERALLY no goddamned reason, Trystane would be a fucking awful small council member (he's a retard) and even if he was brilliant it would still be an awful decision. Doran willingly and unnecessarily did what Balon Greyjoy did with a sword to his neck, give his son over as an essential hostage. BRAVA D&D.

-The Cringe Snakes return in all their glory. XD LEL SLAPPING GAMES AND SEX REFERENCES. And another awful and nonsensical diatribe that is supposed to sound like a brilliant metaphor but ultimately is meaningless. Reminder this is what we're getting instead of real Dorne intrigue like in the books

-Arya plot is still sex. Oysters and sexual harassment instead of going fucking blind and having some real goddamned character development. You know a plot is awful when the lackluster Arya AFFC plot is literally War and Peace compared to this crap.

-Mace Tyrell being in Braavos still makes no sense. Trant being with him makes no sense. None of this makes any sense. On top of that they're still making Mace out to be full-fledged developmentally disabled. Book Mace is no rocket scientist, but it isn't NEARLY this bad and he isn't just a complete comic relief character. why can't D&D understand not everything has to be one way or the other?

-And lel, Ser Meryn Trant. The latest victim of D&D's character assassination. Yes in the books he's an asshole and Cersei's creature, but he's still shown to be a respectable and capable knight who isn't needlessly awful instead of this foul mouthed grumpy pedophile. It's like D&D realized he was associated with Cersei and Syrio so they immediately thought of the worst shit they could to make him a "bad guy".

-Did you ever notice whenever Arya is in 1 of apparently 2 rooms in the House of the Undying, someone is ALWAYS getting assisted suicide there? Like holy crap in the books this happens to but not every instance you see the House. This place must be the Essos version of Auschwitz or something with how many people they must be killing. D&D again show how simple they ultimately are, they associated one trait with this place and just keep repeating it over and over to remind the audience what it is.

-Doran the master planner and the Great Dornish Conspiracy seems pretty much out the window now. Especially with no Aegon in the show. Instead he's just a bitch to the Lannisters and hurrrr war iz bad. D&D kept the Dorne plot for some reason, yet saw fit to cut out all of its most important characters, completely rework it into something fillerish and unnecessary, and then take away any future implications from it. Once more, Bravo D&D.

-Ellaria gives a speech on gay rights to Jaime out of nowhere. D&D probably thought this was an oh-so-subtle and brilliant hint at contemporary gay marriage debate (much like the changes to Loras/Faith plot) but it was just so stupid and illogical in its own setting. This is why contemporary politics need to stay out of the story. First off, tons of Lords have paramours (aka mistresses) in the rest of Westeros. Second, people DO bat an eye at Oberyn's relationship with Ellaria in Dorne and it's even plainly stated as much in the books. Dorne still follows the Faith of the Seven, they're predominately Rhyonar but still have heavy Andal (and First Men) influence, and they're not a completely different world from central/northern Westeros. Just like how Italy/Spain but culturally different from France, but not night and day. D&D think Dorne is some gay rights utopia when IRL they're just marginally more tolerant and believe women should have a stake in secession because of Nymeria's influence on their society. THAT'S IT. And THIRD, people DID "bat an eye" at Targaryen incest, or did you just forget the entire Faith Militant Uprising you dumb hacks.

-Stannis doesn't know what the Dance of the Dragons is. Mind you this is probably the bloodiest war in Westerosi history (and certainly the bloodiest in post-conquest Westerosi history). This is literally like General Petraeus saying he never heard of WW2. First D&D make Stannis into some dumby, then they go and make him Emperor Palptine (AND SEE NEXT)

-HO BOY. Burning Shireen at the stake. There waso so much wrong here it hurts my head to think about. First after spending the season making Stannis into a nice guy and repairing their demonization campaign against him for the last 2 seasons, they completely wreck it all. What was the point of adding in that Shireen-Stannis wuv scene if all they did was squander it? Why do D&D INSIST on making Stannis the anti-christ incarnate? We're back to RHOLLOR HUNGERS in a big way. And on top of that, while book Stannis wouldn't even consider this shit, she's his heir and he literally says she's the only one who can succeed him in the books. And the only fucking Baratheon who would consider burning Shireen (Queen Selyse, who is implied to have the desire to sacrifice Shireen in the books) is the one who is actually AGAINST it in the show. TOP FUCKING KEKS. Wtf are with D&D and their insistence to do the opposite of anything right?

-What's the point of the Fighting Pits being reopened when there is literally no war with Yunkai and they already surrendered? The Sons of the Harpy haven't stopped either, so there's no point there. These types of concessions make no goddamn sense in the show setting, but since D&D cherrypick shit from the books for their god-awful show it just creates more of these logic holes.

-We have Saint Tyrion once more in all his glory. Omg he talks down Hizdhar on his Ghiscari Privlege and violence isn't the answer. You know what was fucking good in ADWD? Tyrion was morally ambiguous, he straight up gleefully murders someone out of spite in Slaver's Bay, while gloating "a Lannister always pays his debts" like a serial killer. Yet because Peter Dinklage is a bigshot and Tyrion is beloved by the fanbase D&D make him into a mary sue here.

-Hizdhar is so awful in this adaptation. Yes he's a slimy ass in the books, but he isn't a moron who is just used as comic relief or the foil for Dany's STRNK WYMZ BLOOD OF THE DRAGONZ speeches. He actually has a sinister and cunning nature to him and isn't fucking wasted. D&D killed him off after he did literally nothing for no goddamn reason here because they apparently don't understand their own source material, much like Barristan.

-LEL, THIS FIGHT SCENE. None of this makes sense. Why do the Sons do this? Why kill Dany like this? Why not be subtle about it and work within your own network for a stealth-kill (SEE THE BOOKS ON HOW THIS IS DONE, D&D). And why are the Sons murdering random people? How did they get in here with those big goddamn masks? And most of all, WHY ARE THERE 5 MILLION OF THEM. They literally occupy this while arena and own Dany's Unsullied (again). Then if this mess isn't enough, they see to it to ruin the entire Drogon-return scene. Drogon does not appear as an unstoppable force of terror that sends Meereen into a panic and sows needless death, but as the noble rescuer. He's Han Solo at the Death Star if he was magically summoned by Luke. It's a joyous "yahhhh!" moment when Drogon arrives in the show, whereas in the books it's an "oh shit" moment. And then D&D just drop the whole not being able to control her own dragons subplot, after already introducing it.

I knew the shoe was beyond saving despite Hardholm being passable, but D&D are back in all their glory here. I'll be back next week. Reminder that the show has been shit since season 2 and the books are better!

Wow what a WHIIIIIIINNNNYYY bitch. I even agreed with some of this, but seriously pathetic, not clever or witty or entertaining at all, just unbridled WHINGING. Makes me glad I've been away from this forum for a couple years if this is what it's become.

Why do people expect a tv show to be as subtle and as textured as a thousand page novel? Seriously? They set up the Stannis/Shireen dynamic to show the viewers who do not have access to all the background and all of Davos' ruminations that Stannis will do horrible things IN SPITE OF the human emotions that he actually does feel, as juxtaposed with Tywin, who has no feelings, Ned Stark, who will not do horrible things for the greater good or any other reason, and Robert who just buried his head in the sand. That's why he's the only one of those guys who is still going.

Anyone who expected this show to ever provide anything more than a crude rendition of the texture and complexity of the novels is someone who must not be paying attention to what tv is. It astounds me that people come on here and whine about that, I've enjoyed the show when its been good, less so when its been bad, but even when it has been good, ITS STILL A TV SHOW AND NOT A THOUSAND PAGE NOVEL.

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