Feminism - Distractingly Sexy Edition

[Lyanna Stark]

If the Western Feminism(TM) had risen up and said "Immigrants coming in to our countries have to obey our laws and our rules. The mistreatment of women is not allowed within our borders."
(or something along those lines). Would be strongly accepted within European society.
It's not about accepting, or not accepting refugees, it's about the abuse of women.

And you expect what to happen? Should feminists run around town after refugees shouting at them that they are sexist? Honestly, I have a hard time grasping what it is you are after? Feminists have always argued and will always argue, for equality and abolishing of sexism, regardless of ethnicity or culture. That you think feminist somehow are suddenly accepting of sexism in people immigrating is baffling. Do you know any larger feminist organisation or famous feminist who've come out and stated immigrants are exempt from being included in the criticism regarding sexism? I haven't seen a single one arguing that, which means this is a total strawman. Or, strawfeminists. Instead, I've seen feminists on the liberal side argue that more should be done, or that more discussion than already is happening should be happening, alternatively blaming the left for not doing enough, but claiming that feminists "should do something" and then that "feminists aren't talking about this" are both wrong. Feminists are through political action, voting, writing and agitating doing what they always have. This will continue, with or without immigrants.
 

It's about the unwillingness of the refugees to adapt into your society and laws, in some cases even after living in there for years.
Most of the islam families are teaching the same principals, regarding women that is, to their children that they were once taught in their native country. These principals do not belong in a European society. But for some reason, no one is talking about this, no one is writing about this..

The first is a huge generalisation. My neighbour moved to the country I lived in 11 years ago, and she's certainly a hard working tax paying citizen without any weird ideas about men being superior. Meaning, you are talking about a subset of people, an unknown sized subset, which you have certain anecdotal views on. That is no a solid basis for reasoning. Further, blaming this on FEMINISTS is just bizarre. Are feminists somehow alone in being responsible for educating people who arrive in Europe about equality? Is this really how society is organised? No, it is not.

Further, as I have previously stated, saying that feminists are not discussing regressive sexism, patriarchal structures, honour killings etc. is wrong. If you haven't seen it, you are simply reading the wrong things. How many feminists are you very familiar with? Can you name their views on sexism, honour killings etc? If not, why not?
 

And you are certainly not addressing this, it's more like you're just trying to change the subject.

Not at all, I even supplied links to recent articles about this very subject, from the last week alone. I would also suggest that instead of looking at articles by organisations generally against feminists, try reading what feminists themselves actually say and write.
 

Anyway.. I wonder if any of the men involved in the 'Topless FEMEN activist' -stunt will be charged with anything, or if they're just gonna get away with it because of religious reasons? The men were kicking the activists on the ground.

I assume they can be prosecuted if the activist decides to press charges. Did you have something else in mind?
 
 
 

E: I wanted to add, a 7 year old girl was raped in school by a muslim refugee earlier this week. As a result the school sent letters to parents telling the children to not wear anything too revealing as to not offend the immigrants, and risk their own safety.
With news like this, it's really sad to see how little press coverage it gets. And I think every feminist in the world should be raising awareness on the cultural differences.. But everyone is just too afraid to speak about it, because it makes them a racist.
 
But I doubt this will change anything, we will just keep pretending it's an individual case.

So yeah, source?

[Lily Valley]

I've organized a new element to a course I'm teaching this semester to do some career exposure and advisement to my students.  I have a friend coming in to talk about her experience as an engineer.  She has had several different jobs and has essentially changed careers a few times in the last 10 years, making her a great resource for my students.  I wanted her to talk about career options, salary negotiation and being a woman in STEM fields.

After talking to her about the third point, she's concerned that she'll completely discourage the women in my classroom.

Her experiences have been pretty universally awful.

It's depressing.  

My thoughts are that the women in my courses have already experienced sexism and may be doubting whether or not the men condescending to them are right and perhaps they aren't good enough or smart enough to continue in the field.  This is the type of self-doubt is something everyone goes through when at the start of such a high learning curve.  It just really hurts people when their mentors, classmates and bosses treat them as though it's a FACT.    Her concern is that they'd hear the message that it's never over and they'll spend their whole hard-won career having to prove themselves.  This has essentially been her experience.  The last thing we want is to tell them it's just going to suck forever, but it's the truth.  I'd like to see them armed with the knowledge that IT'S NOT RIGHT and they can speak up for themselves.

I've been talking with her on how to tailor this aspect of her talk and possibly getting another speaker in to reinforce what she's saying and perhaps to talk about strategies.  My friend is very outspoken, many of my students are not.  They're still scared that there's not really a place at the table for "people like them".  Many of my students are minorities and also first in family to even attempt a college degree.  That they are ambitious enough to go into engineering and physics is a real credit to their previous mentors, their intelligence and their determination.   

I'd like your thoughts on this and would appreciate any feedback.  I posted here because I am specifically worried about the women.  Also, the men need to hear about the things they are doing that feed the problem.  They need the education while the women need the warning.  There's nothing more depressing than getting out  of college and dealing with the same shit you had to eat at some crappy job you had in college.  It sucks.

I'd also appreciate any reading materials about careers, salary negotiation, workplace environment, and the art of interviewing your prospective boss that you can pass along.  We've been buying e-books for our students and putting together a library for them.  I just got a recommendation for The No Asshole Rule: Building a Civilized Workplace and Surviving One That Isn't. I plan on reading it over the holidays and ordering it for them as long as I can say "Asshole" in the classroom.  Will check with boss.

Thanks in advance.

[The guy from the Vale]

Lily,

you rock. 'Nuff said.

[NestorMakhnosLovechild]

I've organized a new element to a course I'm teaching this semester to do some career exposure and advisement to my students.  I have a friend coming in to talk about her experience as an engineer.  She has had several different jobs and has essentially changed careers a few times in the last 10 years, making her a great resource for my students.  I wanted her to talk about career options, salary negotiation and being a woman in STEM fields.

After talking to her about the third point, she's concerned that she'll completely discourage the women in my classroom.

Her experiences have been pretty universally awful.

It's depressing.  

My thoughts are that the women in my courses have already experienced sexism and may be doubting whether or not the men condescending to them are right and perhaps they aren't good enough or smart enough to continue in the field.  This is the type of self-doubt is something everyone goes through when at the start of such a high learning curve.  It just really hurts people when their mentors, classmates and bosses treat them as though it's a FACT.    Her concern is that they'd hear the message that it's never over and they'll spend their whole hard-won career having to prove themselves.  This has essentially been her experience.  The last thing we want is to tell them it's just going to suck forever, but it's the truth.  I'd like to see them armed with the knowledge that IT'S NOT RIGHT and they can speak up for themselves.

I've been talking with her on how to tailor this aspect of her talk and possibly getting another speaker in to reinforce what she's saying and perhaps to talk about strategies.  My friend is very outspoken, many of my students are not.  They're still scared that there's not really a place at the table for "people like them".  Many of my students are minorities and also first in family to even attempt a college degree.  That they are ambitious enough to go into engineering and physics is a real credit to their previous mentors, their intelligence and their determination.   

I'd like your thoughts on this and would appreciate any feedback.  I posted here because I am specifically worried about the women.  Also, the men need to hear about the things they are doing that feed the problem.  They need the education while the women need the warning.  There's nothing more depressing than getting out  of college and dealing with the same shit you had to eat at some crappy job you had in college.  It sucks.

I'd also appreciate any reading materials about careers, salary negotiation, workplace environment, and the art of interviewing your prospective boss that you can pass along.  We've been buying e-books for our students and putting together a library for them.  I just got a recommendation for The No Asshole Rule: Building a Civilized Workplace and Surviving One That Isn't. I plan on reading it over the holidays and ordering it for them as long as I can say "Asshole" in the classroom.  Will check with boss.

Thanks in advance.

Have her soft-pedal the bad stuff and emphasize the good stuff OR find another speaker who has more positive things to say about being a woman in the STEM fields and ask your friend not to focus on that topic.  

[Shryke]

I've organized a new element to a course I'm teaching this semester to do some career exposure and advisement to my students.  I have a friend coming in to talk about her experience as an engineer.  She has had several different jobs and has essentially changed careers a few times in the last 10 years, making her a great resource for my students.  I wanted her to talk about career options, salary negotiation and being a woman in STEM fields.

After talking to her about the third point, she's concerned that she'll completely discourage the women in my classroom.

Her experiences have been pretty universally awful.

It's depressing.  

My thoughts are that the women in my courses have already experienced sexism and may be doubting whether or not the men condescending to them are right and perhaps they aren't good enough or smart enough to continue in the field.  This is the type of self-doubt is something everyone goes through when at the start of such a high learning curve.  It just really hurts people when their mentors, classmates and bosses treat them as though it's a FACT.    Her concern is that they'd hear the message that it's never over and they'll spend their whole hard-won career having to prove themselves.  This has essentially been her experience.  The last thing we want is to tell them it's just going to suck forever, but it's the truth.  I'd like to see them armed with the knowledge that IT'S NOT RIGHT and they can speak up for themselves.

I've been talking with her on how to tailor this aspect of her talk and possibly getting another speaker in to reinforce what she's saying and perhaps to talk about strategies.  My friend is very outspoken, many of my students are not.  They're still scared that there's not really a place at the table for "people like them".  Many of my students are minorities and also first in family to even attempt a college degree.  That they are ambitious enough to go into engineering and physics is a real credit to their previous mentors, their intelligence and their determination.   

I'd like your thoughts on this and would appreciate any feedback.  I posted here because I am specifically worried about the women.  Also, the men need to hear about the things they are doing that feed the problem.  They need the education while the women need the warning.  There's nothing more depressing than getting out  of college and dealing with the same shit you had to eat at some crappy job you had in college.  It sucks.

I'd also appreciate any reading materials about careers, salary negotiation, workplace environment, and the art of interviewing your prospective boss that you can pass along.  We've been buying e-books for our students and putting together a library for them.  I just got a recommendation for The No Asshole Rule: Building a Civilized Workplace and Surviving One That Isn't. I plan on reading it over the holidays and ordering it for them as long as I can say "Asshole" in the classroom.  Will check with boss.

Thanks in advance.

Just my opinion on the matter but telling them the "hard truth" of what they will face is not necessarily the best thing. Your friend may be right.

[TerraPrime]

I've tried to tackle this issue, as well. It's hard not to, if you're in a position as a mentor in the STEM field.

On one hand, you'd be doing a disservice to the students if you don't address it and if you don't prepare the female students to handle it. On the other hand, in doing so, you might very well achieve the opposite of encouraging them to stay in the field.

Then again, I often ask myself: why should they stay in a field that's obviously and relentlessly hostile to them? Like, would I recommend an LBGT student to go work for the Family Research Council? No. So, why am I pushing women into STEM fields?

In the end, my take is this: I encourage the female students to stay in the field despite all the bad sexist crap, and I do my best to help them prepare themselves to face these challenges. If someone decides this is not for them, then that's a legitimate thing to do.

For this particular case, I actually would welcome the speaker to give the harsh reality of surviving the STEM field as a woman. I will, however, be sure to add two segments: one on the ways for the female students to mitigate some of these negative impacts, and one for *all* the students on why it's so important to not help perpetuate the awfulness. The second part is critical, imo, lest we come across as telling women to dress properly to avoid being sexually assaulted.

In specific, I would ask the speaker to address 2 to 3 things that she has to struggle the most  against as a woman in the STEM field, whether it is negotiating for salary, being given authority, managing teams, balancing family-life expectations, etc., instead of listing every single possible item of things going poorly. Then I will make sure that for each of these areas, a solution is offered to help the students better deal with it when it's their turn. Giving them something actionable is going to stop the session from turning into a complaint-festival and also helps make it less depressing than what it already is.

[Kalbear]

Address it. Head on, no punches pulled. Tell them that it'll be hard and they'll have to be awesome, and that it sucks that that is true.

But, also tell them that things are getting a lot better, that it's far better than it has been in the past, and most importantly: if they want to, they can succeed and thrive in the STEM field. Tell them some companies are far better than others and to ask around. Tell them that they can be the generation that changes this once and for all. 

[TerraPrime]

Address it. Head on, no punches pulled. Tell them that it'll be hard and they'll have to be awesome, and that it sucks that that is true.

But, also tell them that things are getting a lot better, that it's far better than it has been in the past, and most importantly: if they want to, they can succeed and thrive in the STEM field. Tell them some companies are far better than others and to ask around. Tell them that they can be the generation that changes this once and for all. 

Do you really believe this?

I think we will see small, incremental improvements in some sectors of STEM - we have, already, in biology. There are signs that chemistry and computer science are also getting better. Math, physics, and engineering - not so much. But for the most part, I do not foresee a shift to equality (as you and I will want it) within my life time. For the college students, for sure, at the most optimistic estimate, they will spend 75% of their working life in a climate more or less similar to what we have right now. Small things will slowly improve, along the lines of "they no longer punch us in the face after they take our lunch money, so that's an improvement, even though we still don't have our lunch money." 

[Theda Baratheon]

To be honest I say let her speak; let the male students and female students hear her experiences and decide for themselves. It might be depressing but better to prepare students I think...I wish I was more prepared in Uni. 

[Underfoot]

I would say it should be addressed, but I think it's good that you want to address strategies for dealing with it. Sexism is still deeply rooted in a lot of STEM fields. From my own experience - I majored in Geology, and while I am now pursuing a career in IT, a lot of my female peers got jobs in the oil and environmental consulting industries, and the stories I hear from them....really disheartening.

There are some truly toxic-to-women workplaces in the sciences, and I don't think that should be glossed over, because it was definitely not something any of my professors talked about, even the women professors -- and they doubtless experienced it firsthand. I think it should be brought up, along with (again) ways to help mitigate it and the positive spin of "you can help make it better!" (sorry, I don't really have any ideas about how to mitigate it though)

I think it's good to be braced for the sexism that you will encounter and have ideas on how to handle it, even if it can be extremely discouraging to hear about. 

[Kalbear]

Do you really believe this?

I think we will see small, incremental improvements in some sectors of STEM - we have, already, in biology. There are signs that chemistry and computer science are also getting better. Math, physics, and engineering - not so much. But for the most part, I do not foresee a shift to equality (as you and I will want it) within my life time. For the college students, for sure, at the most optimistic estimate, they will spend 75% of their working life in a climate more or less similar to what we have right now. Small things will slowly improve, along the lines of "they no longer punch us in the face after they take our lunch money, so that's an improvement, even though we still don't have our lunch money." 

I do believe this. Especially in STEM. 

I believe that tech companies are going to dominate in the next 25-30 years what the shape of the world looks like, and those tech companies are increasingly being dominated by young people. And those young people are increasingly looking badly at the odd sexism and racism in the world. We're already seeing dividends to this in companies like google and facebook and Microsoft, and this is, I believe, only going to increase as companies get more and more desperate for better people. 

At the same time, college education is decreasing in males and increasing in females. The educated population is increasingly skewing more female. 

I do think that the generation that's graduating now and for the next 10 years will have the ability to dramatically affect change in the culture of the workplace. That may be wishful thinking. At the same time, look at how norms have changed in the last 10 years. We have gay marriage, as an example. We have had a black president. Sexism is the next battle that I'm seeing a hell of a lot more fight against - and it's much louder. It's dominating our entertainment and media choices. It's being talked about. It's changing. 

[Shryke]

I do believe this. Especially in STEM. 

I believe that tech companies are going to dominate in the next 25-30 years what the shape of the world looks like, and those tech companies are increasingly being dominated by young people. And those young people are increasingly looking badly at the odd sexism and racism in the world. We're already seeing dividends to this in companies like google and facebook and Microsoft, and this is, I believe, only going to increase as companies get more and more desperate for better people. 

At the same time, college education is decreasing in males and increasing in females. The educated population is increasingly skewing more female. 

I do think that the generation that's graduating now and for the next 10 years will have the ability to dramatically affect change in the culture of the workplace. That may be wishful thinking. At the same time, look at how norms have changed in the last 10 years. We have gay marriage, as an example. We have had a black president. Sexism is the next battle that I'm seeing a hell of a lot more fight against - and it's much louder. It's dominating our entertainment and media choices. It's being talked about. It's changing. 

What portions of the educated population though? Cause afaik while the overall numbers are skewing female, the STEM numbers still skew heavily male.

 

And just generally I don't think the younger generations in the fields we are talking about are as progressive on gender issues as the overall population or as you are implying here.

[Lily Valley]

Lily,

you rock. 'Nuff said.

Thanks pal.  Honestly, I'm just doing my job.  Part of my job is beating my friends about the face and neck who are in private industry and asking them to give something back to our young people.  They're glad to have an opportunity.  People want to help.  They're doing a hell of a lot more than they thought.  Our Q and A sessions tend to last for over an hour.

Multiquote is acting up so bear with me as I take these things one at a time.  

To be honest I say let her speak; let the male students and female students hear her experiences and decide for themselves. It might be depressing but better to prepare students I think...I wish I was more prepared in Uni. 

Theda, this is my gut instinct, but we are tailoring her talk for specific examples and strategies she has used to identify three parts of the problem.  First, what happened.  Second, why it sucked, third, how to react to it.  

I don't want her talk to be overwhelmed by this, because it's a small part of her day and her career.  Also, she's very successful and this is great after the last speaker I had who was a white male.  He talked about politics and salary also without the baggage of being shunted into business because female.  He stayed for his passion and suffered career blows just for that.  He DIDN"T get shoved into management.

Do you really believe this?

I think we will see small, incremental improvements in some sectors of STEM - we have, already, in biology. There are signs that chemistry and computer science are also getting better. Math, physics, and engineering - not so much. But for the most part, I do not foresee a shift to equality (as you and I will want it) within my life time. For the college students, for sure, at the most optimistic estimate, they will spend 75% of their working life in a climate more or less similar to what we have right now. Small things will slowly improve, along the lines of "they no longer punch us in the face after they take our lunch money, so that's an improvement, even though we still don't have our lunch money." 

I am also trying to educate tomorrow's workforce about underestimating female colleagues and how some of the garbage that might come out of their mouth totally sucks.  I will say that I thought my friend would enjoy my class.  The new kids are a lot better about treating one another with respect than my own classmates were.  It's a self-selecting group.  They literally have to hunt statewide to find a female Physics instructor, but even with that said, the group dynamics are not where I would like them.  I still haven't gotten a female team lead for my grant program.  This makes 4 teams in 2 years with male leads.

The improvement is really mind-blowing compared to what I put up with in school.  I think my friend would enjoy seeing this as an upbeat to her terrible experiences.  Hope for the Flowers if you will.  

I understand your thoughts on soft-pedaling, I'm thinking one or two anecdotal stories at the end of the talk to open up the q and a?  They're smart and they'll listen.  I have questions to prompt her if they get shy.

 

What portions of the educated population though? Cause afaik while the overall numbers are skewing female, the STEM numbers still skew heavily male.

 

And just generally I don't think the younger generations in the fields we are talking about are as progressive on gender issues as the overall population or as you are implying here.

This is a good point.  Women have ALWAYS had to do better than men to succeed in STEM.  Now a lot of women are graduating with higher scores than men are  to get accepted to universities.  This speaks volumes about how k-12 education is failing, but that's a side issue.  Women face having to be even better because universities want to keep the sexes even.  What this is going to do is keep my students out.

[Kalbear]

The article I could find shows things aren't looking so good, at least in the US. This is somewhat misleading as the overall rates have increased in general, meaning that women's enrollment has stayed somewhat stagnant but is less as an overall percentage.

[Lily Valley]

The article I could find shows things aren't looking so good, at least in the US. This is somewhat misleading as the overall rates have increased in general, meaning that women's enrollment has stayed somewhat stagnant but is less as an overall percentage.

No.  Enrollment isn't looking great, but in my classroom things are better.  Again. I have a self-selecting population.

Edit:  It's not the numbers that are better, it's the way the students treat one another and the way they interact with me.  I've noticed a big improvement over the last 2 years.  I've only been teaching for 4 so I can't say it's because of a large sea change in attitudes.  I think it's because of classroom dynamics and ALSO sea change.  Again.  This is just my observations.

 

[TerraPrime]

The graph showed basically what I think is happening.

A couple caveats on that, though. First one is that we are still dealing with job-getting gap, even when we close the degree-getting gap. Of course, one step at a time, so that's still good news.

Second, at the graduate level, the gender gap is still present in most of the STEM disciplines. I think either biology or psychology has parity at the graduate level, but in all other majors, the gap is still significantly larger than it is in the undergraduate level.

 

As far as climate goes, I think we are going to get a heterogenous situation even within one institution. If we think about a student's experience at a college, they are unlikely to encounter all the faculty even in their department. For our major, they will take about 10 to 12 classes in our department before they graduate. We have a total of 30 faculty. So most of the time, a student will only see fewer than half of the faculty in our department. This means that their experience will depend a lot on whom they get. And some students do pick classes based on things like whether the professor has a reputation for being an asshole, or not. Plus, on the backside, there's the institutional level climate, evinced in things like what kinds of award and scholarships are available, or what type of support they have for undergraduate research, or what advising they get as first year students, etc. In theory, a student's journey through college shouldn't be up to so many factors out of their control, and in some cases where the student takes the initiative to do so they don't. But in the majority of cases that I've seen, whether a student ends up in a pre-med track or a recreation management track (nothing wrong with it, per se, but it shouldn't be the "easy" option) can be as fickle as whether the initial advisor they get thinks biology major is too hard for you.

That said, it's a fine needle to thread. On one hand, we want to support each student's aspiration and not stereotype them. On the other hand, some students have unrealistic expectations ("I have a GPA of 2.2 at the end of freshman year, which med school should I look for?"). It is hard because not every student "blooms" at the same rate, and the student who bombed the first 3 semesters may just snap out of it and do well later. We have no way to tell, for sure, and yet we still have to give career advice to them.

[karaddin]

I lean towards the brutal truth. Yes the situation only improves when people push their way into it and force it to improve, but any particular individual needs to choose whether they are up to paddling against the shit stream and that choice deserves awareness of the reality of the situation.

I'm sure that things are improving, but I'm sceptical that it is happening particularly quickly. I feel like geek/nerd culture is being particularly slow to change and experiencing one of the biggest blow backs. I also feel geek masculinity is really it's own form of masculinity and hasn't really been sufficiently looked at on its own.

[litechick]

I want a gender-blind workplace and in my mind the only way to get that is to behave as if the workplace is gender-blind.  ('Fake it til you make it', as they say.)  When among the animals one cannot show fear. 

The sort of mentality which espouses old stereotypes about women also sees awareness-raising as whining.  It doesn't matter how true your words, if they appear to be coming from a place of self-pity it will be useless.

On one point I do agree with the 'what about the men?' crowd--the problem (while more visible for women) is not woman exclusive and the solution should not be woman exclusive.  The tendency for male-dominated fields to be dismissive towards non-males also tends to dismiss males who do not conform to the Man Code.

This is why I would not endorse an educational talk about Women in STEM. 

One time a colleague suggested that I do a lecture on lighting.  Within his pitch were the words, "as a woman" and that pretty much killed any chance of it happening.  I would be happy to talk to students about lighting but I would not want to talk to them 'as a woman.'

For me, the best of times were those in which I was oblivious to my own gender.  As a college student I was still blind to the affect and any talk of the obstacles I would face would have fallen on deaf ears because I didn't believe that shit applied to me.  I was blindly secure under the assumption that people were judging me on my merit.

I was very aware of my gender in my early professional years and took steps to hide it.  When I became a manager I lost sight of my gender because I was too fucking busy/stressed out to give it a thought and it didn't dawn on me that my managerial status affected the way people treated me.

Returning to the topic, I think that any discourse on handling prejudicial fuckwads should be gender neutral.  Some people will judge you poorly based on height, musculature, voice, wardrobe or size.  If anything, I have learned from those who disparaged me.  I would frequently get a guy who rolled his eyes and issued a derisive snort anytime I said anything.  This was effective in communicating that I was not to be taken seriously.  It works both ways.

A few months ago a nice, unassuming guy with a limp praised me and another woman for our strength.  I laughed at him.  "oh yeah, two women hang a moving light without assistance from a man--pictures at 11!"  1) I wasn't mad so I didn't put him on the defensive.  2) I pointed out the prejudice inherent in his praise while keeping it all in good fun.

Coping methods are largely individual.  You can't just draw a flowchart in which X derisive/dismissive attitude is met with Y coping strategy.  It is better to provide a range of options.

The important thing to remember is that those who are prejudiced against you don't know that.  They think they are responding to you purely on the data and any suggestion that they are prejudiced will elicit the defensive response.  If we have achieved nothing else, we have created a world in which to be labelled sexist is a mortal insult.

Choose your enemies wisely.

[Shryke]

I lean towards the brutal truth. Yes the situation only improves when people push their way into it and force it to improve, but any particular individual needs to choose whether they are up to paddling against the shit stream and that choice deserves awareness of the reality of the situation.

I'm sure that things are improving, but I'm sceptical that it is happening particularly quickly. I feel like geek/nerd culture is being particularly slow to change and experiencing one of the biggest blow backs. I also feel geek masculinity is really it's own form of masculinity and hasn't really been sufficiently looked at on its own.

The problem imo is awareness of the truth does not necessarily create better behaviour. The truth can be brutal and discouraging and actually promote worse results on the part of those you are talking to. Tell people the world is stacked against them and many will underperform. Lie to them that the playing field is fair and they will do better.

I remember an interesting study or two on this with black kids I will try and find again. Basically what I remember at least one of them being about was that when you told them the tests they were taking were designed to work against them because of their race, they did worse, regardless of the actual content of the test.

[Lyanna Stark]

Wow Lily, you are doing great work. Whatever you decide to go with, what an amazing initiative! I'd love to have had something like this during my school years, and I am sure other women would as well. 

I believe that tech companies are going to dominate in the next 25-30 years what the shape of the world looks like, and those tech companies are increasingly being dominated by young people. And those young people are increasingly looking badly at the odd sexism and racism in the world. We're already seeing dividends to this in companies like google and facebook and Microsoft, and this is, I believe, only going to increase as companies get more and more desperate for better people. 

Hmm, do you think the tech business are parallel with STEM in this regard though? It seems sometimes, private sector IT is not in complete lock-step with research institutions or even parts of the public sector (obviously this may differ based on geography as well).

I can only see that from my horizon, IT is getting increasingly populated by women, while stuff like traditional engineering (construction, machinery, energy etc.) is still very male dominated.

 

Also, this is totally unrelated, but I just wanted to save it here for posterity because it is brilliant.