Feminism - Distractingly Sexy Edition

[Arkhangel]

On the other hand, someone who deserved exactly what he got...

[TrueMetis]

On the other hand, someone who deserved exactly what he got...

Please don't link to the dailymail.

[john]

To be fair most of those other people are less likely to be in a position where they are meant to help or stimulate the people they are insulting with remarks like that. Don't forget that at this point women almost certainly make up the majority of students and (young) researchers in university biochemistry labs.

Fair point. He certainly has more authority and more responsibility in his field. But the celebrity broadcasters i'm thinking of that made similar or worse thoughtless comments do have a much greater reach.

It was more about the response of the institutions involved in these kind of scandals. UCL couldnt get rid of Hunt fast enough because it made them look good and cost them nothing. The BBC, for example, defended people like Clarkson and Chris Moyles for years because they were worth millions to them.

[maarsen]

When I was young, and single I had a job working in a female dominant environment. Out of a hundred people, maybe 8 men worked with me and the rest of the staff was female. Of those 8 men, I was the youngest and the straightest. Consequently, I got a lot of attention from the women I worked with. I remained calm cool and professional throughout as did my female colleagues. Men are quite capable of controlling themselves in any situation.

[Seli]

Fair point. He certainly has more authority and more responsibility in his field. But the celebrity broadcasters i'm thinking of that made similar or worse thoughtless comments do have a much greater reach.

It was more about the response of the institutions involved in these kind of scandals. UCL couldnt get rid of Hunt fast enough because it made them look good and cost them nothing. The BBC, for example, defended people like Clarkson and Chris Moyles for years because they were worth millions to them.

Top researchers, even retired ones, can bring in millions in funding as well to the institutions they are connected to. I am (perhaps foolishly) willing to think that UCL has taken a proper stance this time to protect the current and upcoming generations.

[litechick]

This guy is brilliant and likely slightly autistic.

The fact that people had crucify the poor guy I think to me just shows it hit a nerve.

Like if someone at my shop came in and said, "God damn it always stinks whenever you are in the room." I would just laugh it off because I know it's not true.

If I went berserk it would just show I was insecure and thought/knew they were right.

Re: bolded--I used to think that way. In my experience, the most popularly referenced anti-female trope was of the woman who got all upset when she broke a nail. I wasn't offended when the men around me invoked the stereotype because I knew women who acted like that and I was secure in the knowledge that I wasn't like that.

At one point there was a specific guy who was actively campaigning against me being hired for a specific job and I just asked him straight out what his problem was. He said that he had always been taught that there was a reason why women don't/shouldn't do this work and then referenced the "oh, I broke a nail" bit. It was stunning because I had worked with this guy for a couple of years--how could he possibly apply that to me?

When one person says you stink, you blow it off. A few more people say it and it won't matter how thoroughly clean and deodorized you are, you are going to start sniffing yourself to check. After a while, you will start to wonder if there is something wrong with your ability to detect your own odor. The least likely scenario is that they are all wrong and/or persecuting you. If you insist you don't stink in the face of overwhelming testimony then maybe you are venturing into the mental space of the conspiracy theorist.

Now past 40, I would characterize my youth as having been so saturated in casual misogyny that I didn't even see it. Nobody saw it. Feminism was for crybabies and conspiracy theorists.

Even if you don't stink and you know it you still have to find a coping strategy for all the people who will tell you you stink and confidence/denial will only take you so far.

[Lyanna Stark]

Here's the article. http://qideas.org/articles/modesty-i-dont-think-it-means-what-you-think-it-means/

Back to this because I didn't have time yesterday to compose any useful replies, but this I think bears looking at, since it directly draws a connection between what at first glance looks as two opposites:

What I’ve only just begun to realize is that these two extremes represent different sides of the same coin. While popular culture tends to disempower women by telling them they must dress to get men to look at them, the modesty culture tends to disempower women by telling them they must dress to keep men from looking at them. In both cases, the impetus is placed on the woman to accommodate her clothing or her body to the (varied and culturally relative) expectations of men. In both cases, it becomes the woman’s job to manage the sexual desires of men, and thus it is seen as her fault if a man ignores her on the one hand or objectifies her on the other. Often, these two cultures combine to send out a pulse of confusing messages: “Look cute … but not too cute! Be modest … but not frumpy! Make yourself attractive … but not too attractive!” Women are left feeling ashamed of their bodies as they try desperately to contort around a bunch of vague, ever-changing ideals. It’s exhausting, really, dressing for other people.

And this is exactly the point, isn't it? Regardless of whether women are pressured to get thin and thinner and wear skimpy clothes, or to cover up, it's always for someone else's benefit. When people complain about it not being sexy enough, or too daring, then the blame falls again on women and girls failing to meet the standards.

Further, it also highlights how women's bodies are both commodified and objectified, and also how difficult this is to navigate. It is a damned if you do, damned if you don't sort of situation for many people.

[sologdin]

I'm having my brain operated on and I have a choice between the really nice Dr. McEmpathy with the great bedside manner but whose hand shakes or the horrible anti social asshole whose hand doesn't shake

an odd, self-oriented, entitled analysis. the beneficiary of his termination is not intended to be 'consumers' of his services, but rather his co-employees, subordinates, and other colleagues. the perspective of 'consumers' is a red herring.

[TerraPrime]

Re: bolded--I used to think that way. In my experience, the most popularly referenced anti-female trope was of the woman who got all upset when she broke a nail. I wasn't offended when the men around me invoked the stereotype because I knew women who acted like that and I was secure in the knowledge that I wasn't like that.

At one point there was a specific guy who was actively campaigning against me being hired for a specific job and I just asked him straight out what his problem was. He said that he had always been taught that there was a reason why women don't/shouldn't do this work and then referenced the "oh, I broke a nail" bit. It was stunning because I had worked with this guy for a couple of years--how could he possibly apply that to me?

When one person says you stink, you blow it off. A few more people say it and it won't matter how thoroughly clean and deodorized you are, you are going to start sniffing yourself to check. After a while, you will start to wonder if there is something wrong with your ability to detect your own odor. The least likely scenario is that they are all wrong and/or persecuting you. If you insist you don't stink in the face of overwhelming testimony then maybe you are venturing into the mental space of the conspiracy theorist.

Now past 40, I would characterize my youth as having been so saturated in casual misogyny that I didn't even see it. Nobody saw it. Feminism was for crybabies and conspiracy theorists.

Even if you don't stink and you know it you still have to find a coping strategy for all the people who will tell you you stink and confidence/denial will only take you so far.

Well said. 100% agree.

[deleted01]

Lyanna, it's funny you mentioned The Witcher. My SO was playing the newest one the other night, and his character joined up with a woman called Keira. Now she seems awesome and powerful, but the first thing I said was, 'why are her boobs on show?' I just can't unsee the sexism.

We wrote that essay last year on women in video games, and I watched a lot of Sarkeesian's videos. I love them, and her, and now I really struggle to see past the blatant sexism and objectification of women. My SO says he doesn't focus on it, he just plays the game, but he always sees it once I point it out, and we have good discussions on the topic. But it's really frustrating to see female characters always needing to be "sexed up".

[ElizabethB.]

And this is exactly the point, isn't it? Regardless of whether women are pressured to get thin and thinner and wear skimpy clothes, or to cover up, it's always for someone else's benefit. When people complain about it not being sexy enough, or too daring, then the blame falls again on women and girls failing to meet the standards.

Further, it also highlights how women's bodies are both commodified and objectified, and also how difficult this is to navigate. It is a damned if you do, damned if you don't sort of situation for many people.

Yeah, like the problem would be and remain to be, the woman, instead the way people perceive the woman.

[maarsen]

Yeah, like the problem would be and remain to be, the woman, instead the way people perceive the woman.

I have to agree. A woman's morality not based on the way she is dressed. Us men need to learn that women need to be respected no matter what they wear, or don't wear.

[Lyanna Stark]

Lyanna, it's funny you mentioned The Witcher. My SO was playing the newest one the other night, and his character joined up with a woman called Keira. Now she seems awesome and powerful, but the first thing I said was, 'why are her boobs on show?' I just can't unsee the sexism.

We wrote that essay last year on women in video games, and I watched a lot of Sarkeesian's videos. I love them, and her, and now I really struggle to see past the blatant sexism and objectification of women. My SO says he doesn't focus on it, he just plays the game, but he always sees it once I point it out, and we have good discussions on the topic. But it's really frustrating to see female characters always needing to be "sexed up".

OMG yes, I have so many feels about the Witcher I think I should write like a series of concept essays or rants or what have you on the subject. The Witcher (2, I might add, haven't played 1, nor 3 yet) is one of the more frustrating games I have encountered in my long time of gaming since it has a solid story underpinning it and it's an interesting one. It really manages to incorporate a lot of great, cool, awesome and just totally WTF did I just read wowsah! sort of stuff, and I get to whack things with a really, really big sword and then...and then....I feel like an unwelcome visitor from outer space. In fact just thinking about all this makes me sort of incoherent. :lol:

Anyway, what is clear is that there is a huge difference between depicting a sexist setting in which female characters have both agency and where readers/viewers/gamers are invited to empathise with female characters, which I think GRRM pulls off with his novels marvelously, to one where that is not the case.

WARNING RANT AHEAD

The Witcher manages to describe a world in which non-humans are the victims of racism and this is also described as a problem, but the rampant sexism is not at all in the same way. It just "is". Sure, the sorceresses are powerful and all, but they are also unimaginably beautiful and sterile (this is a whole new kettle of fish too, super beautiful sorceresses but oh no, no kids, omg, because powerful women shouldn't or can't or need to be punished, or motherhood and being Teh Sex don't go together?? Lots of implications here) and above all: constantly presented as sex objects, both with their dress and in how they act. Before the end of Act 2 I lost track of how many women I could proposition as Geralt. Every sorceress I met (altho the lesbian one snubbed me omg but you could murder knife her later so she clearly had it coming for not putting out, since everyone knows lesbians are evil scheming dykes right???), some random prostitutes, up to and including the one I was trying to bribe to sleep with some other dude.

The worst part? Triss the Sorceress, this awesome powerful sorceress and diplomat and what have you that you also started the game waking up naked with in bed, didn't even bat an eyelid if I went about propositioning every woman in town, including her nemesis Sile de Tansarville, who just happened to have an enormous boob-tattoo. At least Bioware normally makes it so that if you go out on a limb to proposition lots of other people, your previous main love interest may be just a little bit peeved, but in the Witcher that doesn't matter. Pick up every lady of the night in town, it matters not. Oh and speaking of ladies of the night, I think they really need to show more boobs.

Then you can go on to have sexy times with Triss after you shagged your way around the whole town, and luckily for the inept male protagonist Triss belongs to the 11% of women who can orgasm from PiV without anything else on the table. Yay. Plus I don't know about you people, but to me the sexy times cut scene , warning totally NSFW , is 100% male gaze for me, but perhaps I am a crotchety old lady and I just need the kids to get off my lawn and let my hair down & to lighten up etc.

In a "fun" little interlude, you have these dude bros drinking in a tavern and one of them says he can't go with you to do monster hunting since he's waiting for his wife who he needs to shag, and everyone laughs at him, gets him drunk and takes him monster hunting cos sod the wife. She's totally not important and LOL @ her for missing out anyway, haha.

Then there is the lesbian scheming sorceress who is engaging in lesbian action without inviting the protagonist, acting as a little background titillation and meaningful moaning in the background, because obviously lesbians need to have sex when the male protagonist comes around to get hot and bothered since what else would they be doing with their time than act as timely titillation for the menz??? Oh and then there's that quest where you can get to shag a succubus for knowledge. Or alternatively, you can send your dude-bro mate to do it if you are feeling generous, but I don't know if he gets smarted, but you might get smarted for shagging the succubus at least.

If you want to insult someone, you call them "a whoreson" because apparently there is no worse insult. The fairly important character Vernon Roche grew up poor and his main gripe with life is that is mother ended up as a prostitute to finance her son's and her own, well, continued life. Does he stand up for dear mama and tell people to shove off cos she did what she had to do? No, instead he starts a brawl as soon as anyone mentions this awful stain on his character. But, if you google "Vernon Roche" you find "Vernon Roche is a bro", and oh yes, that he is. A proper dude-bro.

Then if you are a good little protagonist, you may get to shag Roche's second in command Ves, who also has her boobs out, as you do when you roll around in a faux-polish swamp.

At least there is Iorveth, who totally randomly ends up the most (??) feminist character in the game in a weird twist of fate, since he doesn't sleep with the ladies of the night, he employs them as spies. And I bloody well hate elves so he had a lot of innate prejudice from me to break through. He gets upset when elven women are sacrificed and would rather Geralt saves three women from burning in a tower than kill a big bad dude (turns out the best outcome is to let the women burrrrn). Also, he proposes a female ruler for the future empire and he genuinely admires her. Or maybe he just really likes her metal encased boobs, also on display, because boobs don't need armour. Or maybe he is jealous since he doesn't get to show off his chest despite being really quite hot on account of not being female. Interestingly, the male characters don't suffer this armour deficiency which only seems to afflict female characters.

Further, in an altercation, Iorveth rants about Vernon Roche being a murderer, a torturer and god knows what, and Roche is like "Iorveth, a regular whoreson" and the gamer world is like "Oh TROLOLOL Roche is so funny, hahahah". Which is not only sexist and stupid, but totally illogical since Roche is an actual son of a prostitute, and to be a murderer is worse than being born the son of a prostitute, but never mind logic and consistency and stuff like that, right? No, lets laugh about the embarrassment of being called a whoreson, so much more fun to point and laugh at someone for having a woman in their family tree with loose morals, nevermind that she might have no other ways of earning a living for herself and her prospective children. This is not just how gamers experience it either, it is really presented as something that is a bit wicked, but fun, and you're invited to laugh along. Haha, oh he's a regular whoreson, that must have stung!!!

With that, women's sexuality is seen as something that can be bought and sold, which is readily available for anyone willing to either employ force, show up with cash, or in some cases just show up and be male and not totally and utterly hopeless, while at the same time it's something women should be ashamed of, and any relation to a woman of loose morals is so bad it's used as the most grievous insult.

OK, I am going to stop my rant now, because otherwise I'll bore people to tears, but suffice to say: as a woman playing the Witcher franchise, you end up seeing female characters constantly Othered, used as sex objects, whose embarrassment, pain and sometimes even death can be used as something humorous. The worst insult is to be related to a woman selling sex for money, yet a lot of the female NPCs in-game are prostitutes. A majority of women operate without agency and even the ones with agency are constantly put in positions where it is removed, or it is diminished by their being objectified at the same time, or they are being damselled.

It's not that the world is sexist that is the problem either. Westeros is a deeply sexist society, but when we read about female characters' struggle within that society, it's not to laugh at them, but to empathise with their struggles. We may not all love Cersei, but I don't think anyone can fail to be moved by her walk of shame, or her telling Sansa what it is like to be sold as a horse at an auction to a husband who can shag her, beat her and throw her out without a second thought and where she has no bodily autonomy and no agency. Westeros sexism is not described as something to laugh at. Witcher sexism is described as something that can either be laughed at or used as is, with no consequences. The female characters themselves never react to the sexism, nor the sexist treatment, as if they were totally unaware and uncaring about how society around them is structured. They are constant victims, but oblivious to their own status as such.

Regardless of what the novels are like, it is a deliberate choice by the game developers to portray women in this fashion. To mock, humiliate, denigrate and objectify women and to employ a consistent and often quite creepy male gaze is an absolute, deliberate choice. It doesn't need to be this way.

In fact, I often thought they should just call the game "The Witcher - Adventures and Monster Hunting in Boob-land".

OK, I feel better now for getting that off my chest.

[Elder Sister]

Double post

[Elder Sister]

Re: bolded--I used to think that way. In my experience, the most popularly referenced anti-female trope was of the woman who got all upset when she broke a nail. I wasn't offended when the men around me invoked the stereotype because I knew women who acted like that and I was secure in the knowledge that I wasn't like that.

At one point there was a specific guy who was actively campaigning against me being hired for a specific job and I just asked him straight out what his problem was. He said that he had always been taught that there was a reason why women don't/shouldn't do this work and then referenced the "oh, I broke a nail" bit. It was stunning because I had worked with this guy for a couple of years--how could he possibly apply that to me?

When one person says you stink, you blow it off. A few more people say it and it won't matter how thoroughly clean and deodorized you are, you are going to start sniffing yourself to check. After a while, you will start to wonder if there is something wrong with your ability to detect your own odor. The least likely scenario is that they are all wrong and/or persecuting you. If you insist you don't stink in the face of overwhelming testimony then maybe you are venturing into the mental space of the conspiracy theorist.

Now past 40, I would characterize my youth as having been so saturated in casual misogyny that I didn't even see it. Nobody saw it. Feminism was for crybabies and conspiracy theorists.

Even if you don't stink and you know it you still have to find a coping strategy for all the people who will tell you you stink and confidence/denial will only take you so far.

This was so awesome. I've worked in manufacturing for 20+ years now. And casual misogyny has been a part of it as much as closed toe shoes and safety glasses. I look back on my career and all of the many incidents/comments that I've witnessed or had to cope with, and I'm so shocked that it didn't make more of an impression with me. For a long time, I just accepted that dealing with it was part of the job. If I was uncomfortable about a comment or situation, it was because of me, not because someone was acting inappropriately. I have been chased around offices, listened to off color jokes, and comments about my clothing, anatomy, etc. Thankfully, I work for a company now that is much more respectful of women and minorities, and the old prejudices and behaviors are not nearly as ingrained as in other places.

Back to this because I didn't have time yesterday to compose any useful replies, but this I think bears looking at, since it directly draws a connection between what at first glance looks as two opposites:

And this is exactly the point, isn't it? Regardless of whether women are pressured to get thin and thinner and wear skimpy clothes, or to cover up, it's always for someone else's benefit. When people complain about it not being sexy enough, or too daring, then the blame falls again on women and girls failing to meet the standards.

Further, it also highlights how women's bodies are both commodified and objectified, and also how difficult this is to navigate. It is a damned if you do, damned if you don't sort of situation for many people.

One of the biggest gifts I have received from breast cancer is having to deal with this. I never realized or noticed how much what I bolded in your quote occurs. It's constant. And the pressures for women to live up to a specific set of criteria are pretty stout. By having a double mastectomy, and opting out of reconstruction and refusing to wear prosthetics, I absolutely refuse to play this game any more. Before my surgery, I was used to men checking me out, often in a very uncomfortable, unsettling way. After my surgery, it still happens, but my "SCREW YOU" attitude is pretty firmly in place at this point. And fortunately, most men (and women) are mature enough to not engage in such antics. But it still happens. And I always want to ask if the lack of breasts now forfeits me from being worthwhile or valued. Because based on what society tells me every day in advertising, media images, clothing choices, etc., my breasts were what gave me value and worth as a woman, or at least were a significant part of my value and worth.

There is a tremendous amount of freedom that has come to me in not having to play this game anymore. I have deliberately opted out. I chose comfort and my health over what society tells me I must do. And there was a huge amount of pressure from doctors and nurses to get reconstruction, because BREASTS. They're so important!!! I had friends who were stupified that I opted out of reconstruction. I even had a male coworker ask me when I was going to get some boobs. It was frankly astonishing that the biggest problem I faced, according to society, was not whether or not I was going to die from cancer, but the fact that I no longer had boobs. HORRORS.

I learned a lot about myself and about society as a result. And of course, this is all anecdotal, but if you talk to breast cancer survivors, this topic is huge. And painful, and troubling.

[Galactus]

One interesting take I read on this whole thing was someone commenting on how men aren't more offended when they're reduced to victims of their urges

This might be a bit essentialist, but I've always wondered if it isn't just down to erections in some ways?

I mean, a boner is kind of a noticeable thing, it's obvious, and it's something you don't really have control over. (I suspect most men have some memory of getting an erection in public) I mean, obviously an erection isn't the same as acting on stuff, but I think the narrative of "something is happening to me so obviously a woman is doing it TO me" feels like a fairly... Natural but wrong conclusion to make?

It's also the kind of biological essentialism that should be antithetical to feminism.

I'm really not comfortable excluding the various essentialist positions from feminism, even if they're not mainstream anymore, historically they were quite important (especiall for eg. First wave feminism, and getting women the vote) I think they're wrong, mind, but not not-feminist, if that makes sense?

[deleted01]

Great post, Lyanna. As someone who doesn't play games, I'm not wholly in the loop, but I do watch my SO play certain games, and discuss things with him regularly. The essay we wrote really opened my eyes to the sexism that is rife within the gaming industry.

I'm also the "annoying, hairy-legged feminist" (yup) when it comes to films and TV shows. The portrayal of women in superhero films pisses me off, even though I generally enjoy the premise of the films as a whole. I refuse to watch certain things on this basis.

I am looking forward to the Suffragette (Suffragist, dammit!) film. I hope it isn't completely whitewashed - I want to see the true story, the real women who fought and struggled and died for our rights. I sincerely hope this will be the case.

[ElizabethB.]

LS

I'm not familiar with that game.

About female orgasm, theres really no insurmountable reason why any woman could not be able to have an orgasm simply and only by working her own muscles around.

But that's not what sex is about, it's about people interacting and that's what makes it so complex and fun, I think.

So, hell yes to a porn game that would focus on pleasing the women.

[Luzifer's right hand]

I have only played the first Witcher game but the focus on "sexy" is indeed quite annoying. Although I'm not sure the Bioware games are better. At least in the first Witcher game you could ignore most of the "romance" parts without losing out on XP and items. In Bioware or Obsidian games you have to do them if you want the best endings and stuff. Although I must admit I thought the fact that Witchers and Sorceresses are infertile(and other powerful beings? I don't remember) is a decent explanation for them not taking over everything.

[Lyanna Stark]

Yeah, like the problem would be and remain to be, the woman, instead the way people perceive the woman.

Indeed, and it goes further since it also means we perceive ourselves in the same way, and our fellow women, too.

For a long time, I just accepted that dealing with it was part of the job. If I was uncomfortable about a comment or situation, it was because of me, not because someone was acting inappropriately. I have been chased around offices, listened to off color jokes, and comments about my clothing, anatomy, etc. Thankfully, I work for a company now that is much more respectful of women and minorities, and the old prejudices and behaviors are not nearly as ingrained as in other places.

You also start realising how really unfun those kind of jokes are, and how damaging it can be to move and function in spaces where that sort of culture is pre-dominant. Even if you don't realise it, you start to censor yourself, and to try and "unsee" and "unhear" things. What I remember is that I sometimes just had a strong gut feeling that "this is wrong" even if I could not put it into words at the time. Now when I have an easier time to put it into words, it is also easier to identify why it felt wrong back then. It's also much harder to unhear and unsee, for good and bad. Mostly for good!

I learned a lot about myself and about society as a result. And of course, this is all anecdotal, but if you talk to breast cancer survivors, this topic is huge. And painful, and troubling.

You are awesome. :grouphug: It's bizarre and frightening that looks and pleasing others should ever be more important than life and health. I mean, it's your LIFE.

I have lots more to say about the often brutal sexism and racism you see in gaming, gaming communities and associated media (and also examples of guerilla fighting against the stereotypes pushed upon us!) but that will be for later since I need to spend some time barefoot in the kitchen with my kids. :P

Also had some thoughts on female sexuality and how it's often presented in various types of media, literature, games, TV-series etc. since I've read some interesting online discussions on the subject lately (which was where I pulled the 11% of women can orgasm from PiV only figure, so I didn't just pull it figuratively out of my ass. :P )