[BOOK SPOILERS] Discussing Sansa XIX - The season with no reason

[dannyk65]

Where the fuck is she gonna go now?

Urgent Care

[Tywin Smokin a Blunt]

I 100% disagree with the OP, Sansa knows about Bran and Rickon now. She's in her homeland, which means there are real allies out there if she can find them. We the audience now know Littlefinger was probably playing Sansa all along too. Trying to use her trust for him to make himself Warden of the North. Brienne is still out there, and maybe Stannis too, very conspicuous that they left that so ambiguous. It's possible, but I hope unlikely, that she's carrying the heir to the Dreadfort. Most importantly, I think the last of her innocence is gone. She'll never trust anyone but maybe her family again, not even Littlefinger. This was a necessary step for her if she was ever going to stop being someone else's pawn. Oh and Cersei now knows where she is, which certainly could present problems going forward. It moved the story forward in many subtle ways, instead of the more dramatic ways I and a lot of others thought it would. We never got any Frey Pies, which is particularly disappointing, but I do think this sets up a solid arc for her next season of rallying what remains of the North and maybe even meeting up with an undead Jon or a rescued Rickon, before killing her Giant in a castle made of snow.

[TheCasualObserver]

I 100% disagree with the OP, Sansa knows about Bran and Rickon now. She's in her homeland, which means there are real allies out there if she can find them. We the audience now know Littlefinger was probably playing Sansa all along too. Trying to use her trust for him to make himself Warden of the North. Brienne is still out there, and maybe Stannis too, very conspicuous that they left that so ambiguous. It's possible, but I hope unlikely, that she's carrying the heir to the Dreadfort. Most importantly, I think the last of her innocence is gone. She'll never trust anyone but maybe her family again, not even Littlefinger. This was a necessary step for her if she was ever going to stop being someone else's pawn. Oh and Cersei now knows where she is, which certainly could present problems going forward. It moved the story forward in many subtle ways, instead of the more dramatic ways I and a lot of others thought it would. We never got any Frey Pies, which is particularly disappointing, but I do think this sets up a solid arc for her next season of rallying what remains of the North and maybe even meeting up with an undead Jon or a rescued Rickon, before killing her Giant in a castle made of snow.

So... the last four seasons of punishment weren't enough for her to not trust people?

And why not tell the Vale Lords the truth about LF? Boom, he's taken out with minimal fuss and Sansa is safe in the Vale. Come on - this whole storyline was painful.

[Tywin Smokin a Blunt]

So... the last four seasons of punishment weren't enough for her to not trust people?

And why not tell the Vale Lords the truth about LF? Boom, he's taken out with minimal fuss and Sansa is safe in the Vale. Come on - this whole storyline was painful.

Apparently not, as she trusted Littlefinger enough to let him wed her to Ramsey fucking Bolton. That's what all the kisses were about, at the same time that Littlefinger was telling her that life is not a song, he was still feeding into her girlhood fantasies. When in reality, he was just setting her up as a prize for him to present Cersei on his own way up the ladder.

She could have told the Vale lords, but honestly, Littlefinger has them by the balls a little more than we realize yet I think, and besides, they can profess to protect her all they like, but they're still not HER people like the North would be if she can rally what's left of it. She had to get back North eventually no matter what, this again was just an acceleration of her WOW arc I think.

[Lord Freypie]

The good point is Littlefinger may come, save her, tell her he wasn't aware about Ramsay sadism, and return Sansa to her true plotline.

...Like marrying her to a new guy...

[Mladen]

The good point is Littlefinger may come, save her, tell her he wasn't aware about Ramsay sadism, and return Sansa to her true plotline.

...Like marrying her to a new guy...

So we would be where we should have been between Seasons 4 and 5. And the worst part is that I actually think they might pull something like that.

Apparently not, as she trusted Littlefinger enough to let him wed her to Ramsey fucking Bolton. That's what all the kisses were about, at the same time that Littlefinger was telling her that life is not a song, he was still feeding into her girlhood fantasies. When in reality, he was just setting her up as a prize for him to present Cersei on his own way up the ladder.

She could have told the Vale lords, but honestly, Littlefinger has them by the balls a little more than we realize yet I think, and besides, they can profess to protect her all they like, but they're still not HER people like the North would be if she can rally what's left of it. She had to get back North eventually no matter what, this again was just an acceleration of her WOW arc I think.

No, this wasn't acceleration, this was complete tear down of her storyarc. This was perhaps the most contrived storyarc of the season because Sansa returned to the point she never even started from. The idea that everything will be fine with a psychopath such as Ramsay, while fully aware that she should have known better, given her history with Joffrey. Trusting LF when it has been established in Season 4 that she only trusts him to a certain point. Overall, this made no sense. Having her in the North doesn't mean they accelerated her story if it has been done in such way that the character itself is going against established narrative.

I 100% disagree with the OP, Sansa knows about Bran and Rickon now. She's in her homeland, which means there are real allies out there if she can find them. We the audience now know Littlefinger was probably playing Sansa all along too. Trying to use her trust for him to make himself Warden of the North. Brienne is still out there, and maybe Stannis too, very conspicuous that they left that so ambiguous. It's possible, but I hope unlikely, that she's carrying the heir to the Dreadfort. Most importantly, I think the last of her innocence is gone. She'll never trust anyone but maybe her family again, not even Littlefinger. This was a necessary step for her if she was ever going to stop being someone else's pawn. Oh and Cersei now knows where she is, which certainly could present problems going forward. It moved the story forward in many subtle ways, instead of the more dramatic ways I and a lot of others thought it would. We never got any Frey Pies, which is particularly disappointing, but I do think this sets up a solid arc for her next season of rallying what remains of the North and maybe even meeting up with an undead Jon or a rescued Rickon, before killing her Giant in a castle made of snow.

Well, GRRM disagrees. And I find repugnant that rape was a necessary stop for her to stop being a pawn. You know, people learn. Apparently, concept difficult to grasp.

And this was subtle? LOL...

[TheCasualObserver]

Apparently not, as she trusted Littlefinger enough to let him wed her to Ramsey fucking Bolton. That's what all the kisses were about, at the same time that Littlefinger was telling her that life is not a song, he was still feeding into her girlhood fantasies. When in reality, he was just setting her up as a prize for him to present Cersei on his own way up the ladder.

She could have told the Vale lords, but honestly, Littlefinger has them by the balls a little more than we realize yet I think, and besides, they can profess to protect her all they like, but they're still not HER people like the North would be if she can rally what's left of it. She had to get back North eventually no matter what, this again was just an acceleration of her WOW arc I think.

My point was that I find it incredibly unlikely that Sansa would agree to the marriage; who among all the characters in the show has more cause to be cautious about arranged marriages? LF's justification shouldn't have convinced Sansa either - he promises her revenge, yet never gives her a plan... and Sansa doesn't have one either. The moment she is raped she goes back to being a scared little girl. He promises her safety... when she was far safer in the Vale, and had leverage on him. The real problem is that Sansa never manages to address any of these issue; she just blindly follows what LF says and it makes her seem incredibly dumb. Has she learnt nothing from her time in KL?

And the broader plan still doesn't make any sense - LF gets nothing if Stannis wins, nothing if Cersei wins and nothing if the Boltons win; he can take over the North with the Knights of the Vale, but won't they be pissed off he placed Sansa in danger in the first place?

And of course; not knowing about Ramsay is the nail in the coffin. For any scenario other than having Sansa killed and ruling by brute force (with soldiers who do not directly swear allegiance to him) LF needs Sansa's compliance as his figure head. How does marrying her to an unknown element achieve that?

[Tywin Smokin a Blunt]

So we would be where we should have been between Seasons 4 and 5. And the worst part is that I actually think they might pull something like that.

No, this wasn't acceleration, this was complete tear down of her storyarc. This was perhaps the most contrived storyarc of the season because Sansa returned to the point she never even started from. The idea that everything will be fine with a psychopath such as Ramsay, while fully aware that she should have known better, given her history with Joffrey. Trusting LF when it has been established in Season 4 that she only trusts him to a certain point. Overall, this made no sense. Having her in the North doesn't mean they accelerated her story if it has been done in such way that the character itself is going against established narrative.

Well, GRRM disagrees. And I find repugnant that rape was a necessary stop for her to stop being a pawn. You know, people learn. Apparently, concept difficult to grasp.

And this was subtle? LOL...

I love how you use the magic R word to stop all debate. This storyline contained a rape so anything anyone says to defend it is also defending rape, it's really poor logic, and a little childish. Think about how many times Sansa has teetered on this precipice of sexual violence up until this point, yet at every turn someone has been there to save her from it. This time she put her faith in all the wrong protectors and it finally got her, but if she comes out of it ready to finally take matters into her own hands and stop waiting for someone else to come save her, then it can at least be worth the suffering she went through. Now she at least has a powerbase of her own to draw from, something she never had in King's Landing or the Vale.

[Arya442]

Because it doesn't make sense in-context for her to have been there in the first place. You cannot just throw out "oh it's thematically ironic" and say that that alone justifies it. And even then, Theon had to save her, so ultimate this was about HIS development, which makes it all the worse.

And if she wasn't "ready to take matters into her own hands" or "stop waiting for someone else to come and save her" after ALL the other bad crap that she's endured over 4+ seasons, then sorry I'm not buying that she will this time either. The show hasn't earned my trust on that. What's makes this time any different? Why is this when she suddenly "gets it?" Because a penis was involved this time, nope not buying it.

[voodooqueen126]

I love how you use the magic R word to stop all debate. This storyline contained a rape so anything anyone says to defend it is also defending rape, it's really poor logic, and a little childish. Think about how many times Sansa has teetered on this precipice of sexual violence up until this point, yet at every turn someone has been there to save her from it. This time she put her faith in all the wrong protectors and it finally got her, but if she comes out of it ready to finally take matters into her own hands and stop waiting for someone else to come save her, then it can at least be worth the suffering she went through. Now she at least has a powerbase of her own to draw from, something she never had in King's Landing or the Vale.

Why would Sansa trust anybody after seasons 1,2, 3 &4?

[Lord Freypie]

Why would Sansa trust anybody after seasons 1,2, 3 &4?

Characterization is reset at least once every season, it's known.

[WorldCupRef]

Sansa's story this season was faaar better than what it was in the books. She's just hanging out in the Vale in the books. At least here in season 5 she grows as a character; a sort of empowerment where she takes control of her destiny. She will most likely meet up with Brianne next season, which will lead the both of them to go to the house of a family still loyal to the Starks. As all other Northern families join her alliance, they will be stong enough to take over Winterfell and make her Queen of the North. This also allows Theon to have a redemption arc.

[Mladen]

I love how you use the magic R word to stop all debate. This storyline contained a rape so anything anyone says to defend it is also defending rape, it's really poor logic, and a little childish. Think about how many times Sansa has teetered on this precipice of sexual violence up until this point, yet at every turn someone has been there to save her from it. This time she put her faith in all the wrong protectors and it finally got her, but if she comes out of it ready to finally take matters into her own hands and stop waiting for someone else to come save her, then it can at least be worth the suffering she went through. Now she at least has a powerbase of her own to draw from, something she never had in King's Landing or the Vale.

That storyline contained a rape. Plain and simple. If anyone has any problem with that fact, take that with the people who have written the script. I honestly see no logic that she needed return to Winterfell to be more powerful, to not be pawn anymore. Everything you have argued that she has gained in WF, could have obtained without including her in nonsensical situation with Ramsay and making her idiot she has never been.

Sansa understood in Season 4 that she is on her own. She understood that she has no protection. That is why she was ready to turn the table on LF and say Lords of the Vale who she is. She plainly said that she doesn't trust even LF. And instead of continuation of that narrative, we got a scenario where she has to be raped for the purposes you so admirably defend. The thing is that the board you are talking about has already been set and Sansa has been moving towards the end game. This was pulling her 10 steps in opposite direction and victimizing her for no good reason.

She doesn't have a power base now. She has Theon who rescued her, and Brienne who was supposed to rescue her. Nothing has changed.

Characterization is reset at least once every season, it's known.

Sad, but completely true.

[Tywin Smokin a Blunt]

Why would Sansa trust anybody after seasons 1,2, 3 &4?

she shouldn't, but she does, because Littlefinger has done his best to manipulate her greatest weakness, her heart. We all thought his sexual advances towards her were him revealing his weakness, but it was actually the other way around. She trusts him because she thinks he loves her, and because he rescued her from King's Landing, it's like something out of a song. She may not really feel the same way, but she's willing to convince herself otherwise because it plays into her girlhood fantasies.

[WorldCupRef]

[snip]

Sansa understood in Season 4 that she is on her own. She understood that she has no protection. That is why she was ready to turn the table on LF and say Lords of the Vale who she is. She plainly said that she doesn't trust even LF. And instead of continuation of that narrative, we got a scenario where she has to be raped for the purposes you so admirably defend. The thing is that the board you are talking about has already been set and Sansa has been moving towards the end game. This was pulling her 10 steps in opposite direction and victimizing her for no good reason.

Why would the Lords of the Vale trust her? Plus, she has no idea if they are truly loyal to LF or not. They could easily say, "Hey LF, your neice said you killed Lysa. What should we do with her?" At least in Season 5, she took the route that would take her away from LF. And it worked. She's completely free.

[Mladen]

she shouldn't, but she does, because Littlefinger has done his best to manipulate her greatest weakness, her heart. We all thought his sexual advances towards her were him revealing his weakness, but it was actually the other way around. She trusts him because she thinks he loves her, and because he rescued her from King's Landing, it's like something out of a song. She may not really feel the same way, but she's willing to convince herself otherwise because it plays into her girlhood fantasies.

Petyr plays in her girlhood fantasies? In what universe? Sansa, as said in Season 4, knows what kind of monster LF is and what he wants. Plus, you also think he is telling the truth to Cersei and that he continues to serve her, which quite the leap. And another problem is that this analysis is determined in the idea to make this entire thing working so you are making some rather problematic logical leaps here. She never trusted LF. Entire season 4 was her not trusting him. Even after Lysa's death, she showed she didn't trust him. So, I honestly have no idea what fanfic is the origin of this analysis, but it has no common ground with either book series or the TV show.

[Mladen]

Why would the Lords of the Vale trust her? Plus, she has no idea if they are truly loyal to LF or not. They could easily say, "Hey LF, your neice said you killed Lysa. What should we do with her?" At least in Season 5, she took the route that would take her away from LF. And it worked. She's completely free.

Why would Vale Lords trust her that she is Sansa Stark? Because Royce did recognize her based on her recollection of Waymar's travel to Wall. The thing is that Sansa never trusted LF. She never took everything he is saying as a word of God, gospel, axiom, undeniable truth. That is why Season 5 Sansa is so idiotic and even worse than her Season 1 counterpart. Because from not trusting him - "devil she knows", she somehow changed the tune into following his every word like a puppy.

[Colonel Green]

Why would the Lords of the Vale trust her? Plus, she has no idea if they are truly loyal to LF or not. They could easily say, "Hey LF, your neice said you killed Lysa. What should we do with her?" At least in Season 5, she took the route that would take her away from LF. And it worked. She's completely free.

Um, she knows they aren't loyal to LF because they are investigating him for murder and he is desperately trying to keep them away from her. Moreover, her whole plan hinged on them being pro-Stark.

She didn't take a route away from Littlefinger; she did exactly what he told her to, and she's "free" in the sense of being stranded in the middle of a war zone with no allies or supplies, and with armed pursuit surely right behind.

[Chebyshov]

Why would Vale Lords trust her that she is Sansa Stark? Because Royce did recognize her based on her recollection of Waymar's travel to Wall. The thing is that Sansa never trusted LF. She never took everything he is saying as a word of God, gospel, axiom, undeniable truth. That is why Season 5 Sansa is so idiotic and even worse than her Season 1 counterpart. Because from not trusting him - "devil she knows", she somehow changed the tune into following his every word like a puppy.

The "devil she knows" was definitely what they went for in the S4 finale, but then by S5 Turner is giving interviews about how much Sansa trusts LF (and we know where she gets her cues from). It was just a characterization flip for plot-necessity, though what plot they thought they were actually servicing is beyond me.

She can lockpick now. I hear she's leveling up sneak next. Her moment of empowerment was telling Ramsay's girlfriend that she wants to die. Just so glad that Ramsay (*cough* D&D *cough*) was there to teach her a lesson about the horrors of the world, because that was never a thing before in her arc.

Here's hoping R'hllor didn't melt the snowdrift too much.

[Mladen]

The "devil she knows" was definitely what they went for in the S4 finale, but then by S5 Turner is giving interviews about how much Sansa trusts LF (and we know where she gets her cues from). It was just a characterization flip for plot-necessity, though what plot they thought they were actually servicing is beyond me.

She can lockpick now. I hear she's leveling up sneak next. Her moment of empowerment was telling Ramsay's girlfriend that she wants to die. Just so glad that Ramsay (*cough* D&D *cough*) was there to teach her a lesson about the horrors of the world, because that was never a thing before in her arc.

Here's hoping R'hllor didn't melt the snowdrift too much.

I like the conclusion of that blog entry. I mean of everything going on in the North that Sansa could have been involved in, the only thing is well, rape. And that was her story this season. So, make no mistake, whoever says that this season empowered her or did some miracle transformations, you are placing the gratitude on rape. Plain and simple.