Rant and Rave Without Repercussion 3 (Book Spoilers)

[R4W13Y]

Agree.

Until now, no one has been able to say why the show is better.

"The show is better because Aegon is a filler" is not a valid argument

"The show is better because Quentyn is boring" is not a valid argument either.

I mean, first, what is in the show to compare?

Aegon is invading the Stormlands to make a claim. What is in the show that is a potentially more interesting plot or arc? Even the only battle the season showed (besides Hardhome) was decided off screen.

And if we talk about boring travelling, what storyline so far is more interesting or more satisfactory than Quentyn Martell going to Dany to present Dorne to her? I am not saying Quentyn's arc is WOW!. I'm just asking what storyline in the show is better than Quentyn. :dunno: Because saying "the show is better because it was not included" means nothing at all without anything to compare.

:agree:

It's also the tired argument that if you don't like something in the books, the fact that the show didn't do it, or did it differently, automatically makes the show better.

Brienne's/Jaime's/Sansa's arcs are boring in the books? Well since they changed them in the show - never mind what they actually changed them to, just the fact that they changed them is enough - the show is automatically better than the books.

Plus, just because you don't like something in the books, because it's "boring" or whatever, doesn't mean it isn't a logical consistent storyline that is important in the progression of the story and the characters. So taking it out because it's boring, or hard to adapt, or you just plain don't like it, still has consequences for the story that you need to address.

[kissdbyfire]

I just hope they decide to add some Northen Lords. One of my biggest issues with this season was that Sansa was married with no Northen lords present. If that was supposed to solidify the Boltons hold on the North you would think that they would want to invite the Northern Lords.And I still don't understand why Sansa had to be put in the Jeyne Pooles shoes. Or why LF didn't bother to do his research on Ramsay, or when he even started taking people's words as the truth. Especially people he doesn't know anything about. Or why he even thought marrying the real Sansa to Boltons was a good idea. And anyone else remember how he said he was a betting man? He of all people should know how deceptive people can be. this really frustrated me.

I don't see that happening. Not now, not anymore. Now it's going to be Batfinger coming to the rescue with the Vale army.

I didn't like Stannis that much in the books but goodness me! What a ridiculous waste of a rich character! Judging solely by the merits of the show, Stannis' only reason for existing has been to bring Melisansbra and Davis to the Wall. Oh, and to defeat the wildlings. Otherwise, show!Stannis has achieved absolutely nothing as far as I can make out since the end of season 2.

Well, he did make a BBQ. :dunno:

[Troy Reynolds]

Agree.

Until now, no one has been able to say why the show is better.

"The show is better because Aegon is a filler" is not a valid argument

"The show is better because Quentyn is boring" is not a valid argument either.

I mean, first, what is in the show to compare?

Aegon is invading the Stormlands to make a claim. What is in the show that is a potentially more interesting plot or arc? Even the only battle the season showed (besides Hardhome) was decided off screen.

And if we talk about boring travelling, what storyline so far is more interesting or more satisfactory than Quentyn Martell going to Dany to present Dorne to her? I am not saying Quentyn's arc is WOW!. I'm just asking what storyline in the show is better than Quentyn. :dunno: Because saying "the show is better because it was not included" means nothing at all without anything to compare.

Absolutely on Aegon. In the books the KL arc has the Tyrells at the gate, and invading army in the Stormlands on top of all the crap Cersei has brought down on house Lannister. In the show, some religious zealots with baseball bats. Not to mention we didn't get Cersei's decision to have a trial by combat, making the inclusion of Robert Strong totally useless at this point.

And Quentin is supposed to be boring, that his entire point. His inclusion makes it very likely that Dorne will side with Aegon, weakening Dany's position when she invades. Plus, she better hope the Dothraki side with her on the show because her army of Unsullied is more useless than nipples on a breastplate.

[Astromech]

Now it's going to be Batfinger coming to the rescue with the Vale army.

I can see D&D just giving the Elder Brother's lines to Batfinger. It would also be redundant to have Bran and the world wide weirwood when Batfinger knows everything already.

[Astromech]

. In the show, some religious zealots with baseball bats.

Why the hell were they bashing people's faces in during the WoS?

[ArabellaVidal]

Yes, I completely agree with you.

"Is there anything in this life but grief?"

"There's love. There's hope... for some. There's hope that you'll find something worthy... that your life will lead you to some joy... that after everything... you can still be surprised."

This is a quote from a very different show (Joss Whedon's "Angel") but ... I think for me it really represents what the spirit of the books is. I know a lot of people think they are incredibly dark and depressing, but I don't see them that way, because I think we are always getting some glimpse of what matters: there is always love in all its myriad forms (e.g. Arya's love for Jon and his for her); there is loyalty (Brienne's, Barristan's; the Manderleys); there is honor and courage in many different forms (Sam and Bran); there is kindness and empathy despite every effort to drive it out (Sansa); there is wisdom (Davos). Theon's and Jaime's storylines, though they may seem to plumb the depths of cruelty, and they do, are also things that make me hopeful: a person isn't defined by his or her worst act, or nullified by suffering, but can regain him/herself. All of these things are in the books, and all of these qualities are what make the realms of men worth saving, and make the story a hopeful one (to me, anyway.)

I think the show is far more nihilistic than the books simply because the showrunners don't seem to think about that vein of hopefulness that runs through the books and they think the story is about how "anyone can die" or "honor gets you killed." There is no sense that love is important (sex is important on the show, and often showcased, but love ... not so much.) And consequently, I think Show!Westeros is a terrible, hopeless, depressing place in a way that Book!Westeros isn't.

Can I marry this post?

[The Northern Scholar]

There was no plan because CHAOSH ISH A LADDUH!

It was very weird how he just disappeared. The show is going to take away any actual scheming and instead just follow that stupid chaos line.

[Troy Reynolds]

Why the hell were they bashing people's faces in during the WoS?

Two reasons, they either looked gay or were wearing pendants of the God Of Tits And Wine,

[ArabellaVidal]

Two reasons, they either looked gay or were wearing pendants of the God Of Tits And Wine,

I haven't re-watched so tell me if I got the right impression: why weren't they bashing in the faces of people who were exposing themselves if they were really into face-bashing as punishment?

[Balerion06]

JonCon's post reminds me of another argument I hate by show supporters: Aegon is totally filler because he's irrelevant to the engame.

Yes, Aegon himself is probably not going to be the winner of the game of thrones, but people always seem to overlook one very crucial fact. Aegon is, for all intents and purposes, one of Varys's most relevant pieces. Aegon might not survive till the end, but whatever impact he has on Westeros is probably going to play into Varys's plans, which will most likely have higher stakes than a lame Blackfyre restoration conspiracy.

By axing Aegon, they've diluted Varys into the Marxist Bishop of the Church of St. Tyrion, and made him as interesting as a wet fart.

[washmeplease]

By axing Aegon, they've diluted Varys into the Marxist Bishop of the Church of St. Tyrion, and made him as interesting as a wet fart.

Made me laugh, nice one.

[The Prince of Porne]

Aegon is "irrelevant to the endgame," but Ramsay will be the Stallion Who (Literally) Mounts the World...it is known.

[Troy Reynolds]

I haven't re-watched so tell me if I got the right impression: why weren't they bashing in the faces of people who were exposing themselves if they were really into face-bashing as punishment?

I really have no idea, and wouldn't want to try and understand why the show does or doesn't do anything, too prone to give me a headache. Not even sure if they did bash anyone, but was making a joke at the expense of the FM terrible representation.

JonCon's post reminds me of another argument I hate by show supporters: Aegon is totally filler because he's irrelevant to the engame.

Yes, Aegon himself is probably not going to be the winner of the game of thrones, but people always seem to overlook one very crucial fact. Aegon is, for all intents and purposes, one of Varys's most relevant pieces. Aegon might not survive till the end, but whatever impact he has on Westeros is probably going to play into Varys's plans, which will most likely have higher stakes than a lame Blackfyre restoration conspiracy.

By axing Aegon, they've diluted Varys into the Marxist Bishop of the Church of St. Tyrion, and made him as interesting as a wet fart.

The "not important because they won't have an impact on the endgame" is a shit argument and always will be. Most characters, even minor ones, affect the plot in some way. They affect the outlook of the main characters, affect the movements of the main characters. And I'm not calling Aegon a minor character by any stretch, but even if he dies early in the next book the fact that a Targaryen claimant landed in Westeros with a sellsword company at his back is bound to draw attention and demand reaction. This moves pieces from where they would have been and puts them somewhere else. All of this has an impact on everything that happens after it. And Varys, they've turned an intriguing character with a nuanced and complex plan into just another illogical retcon.

[Hayyoth]

I don't see that happening. Not now, not anymore. Now it's going to be Batfinger coming to the rescue with the Vale army.

Well, he did make a BBQ. :dunno:

Yeah this. Next season is going to be hilarious as they scramble to paint LF as the good guy who'll rescue Sansa and bring down the Boltons. I imagine it will all tie in with undead Jon and Sansa's pregnancy. It's going to suck so bad I'm really looking forward to hate watching it. Plus it looks like we'll be getting a second helping of Porne next year.

[RGBeyondAsshai]

Actually, I have some musings I tried posting a while back (I saved it all in case of forum issues) only to find the thread got locked while I was typing. It's all been said before but...

There's an interesting dichotomy in the books between the Lannisters and the Starks. House Lannister appears incredibly strong and powerful, but it is built on the brittle foundations of a dysfunctional family unit, which is a major part of what makes them so interesting. House Stark, meanwhile, are presented as a strong family unit (with one major issue causing problems probably based on an honourable lie), who become significantly weakened by the events of AGOT that lead to them being separated (the 'wolf pack' being stronger together of course).

The show has chosen to portray the Lannisters, particularly since season 4 when they started taking more liberties with the story, in a way that has destroyed everything truly interesting about them. They have hinted at dysfunction but then dismissed it as if it never really happened. The ruining of Jaime's arc and character development is particularly unforgivable. The Maggy The Frog prophecy set up the reasons for Cersei losing her mind (omitting the valonqar too), which should have started as soon as Joff died and made her more aware that it might have substance.

At this point, House Stark is still in disarray but in the books we are supposed to see signs that things could brighten significantly in the near future. Book-Sansa is shown to have learned from the lessons that life has thrown at her, Stark loyalists are showing their hands and making their moves in the knowledge that Bran and Rickon are still alive, and vengeance on the Freys is being wreaked from a few different directions. The show has had very little to none of these indicators of hope for those who want the Starks to make their comeback.

Very good points and I agree.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Also, how many actions scenes are in the two last books (or are at least, mentioned)?

Feast:

Brienne has at least two fights.

The IB invading Shield Islands with 1000 ships.

Loras taking Dragonstone.

Arianne's Queenmaker plot.

Dance:

The Pit

Quentyn's arc

Aegon's landing and taking of the G's Roost

Stannis vs IB in the North.

That's a lot for a couple of boring books, right? Only the bold were shown on screen, and Brienne's fights were all over the place.

JonCon's post reminds me of another argument I hate by show supporters: Aegon is totally filler because he's irrelevant to the engame.

Yes, Aegon himself is probably not going to be the winner of the game of thrones, but people always seem to overlook one very crucial fact. Aegon is, for all intents and purposes, one of Varys's most relevant pieces. Aegon might not survive till the end, but whatever impact he has on Westeros is probably going to play into Varys's plans, which will most likely have higher stakes than a lame Blackfyre restoration conspiracy.

By axing Aegon, they've diluted Varys into the Marxist Bishop of the Church of St. Tyrion, and made him as interesting as a wet fart.

I kinda feel that Aegon is more a plot device to take Jon to Westeros, but you're right. Aegon represents Varys' endgame (independently of whatever will happen with Griff). Without Aegon, Varys has little purpose. He seems to be more into Tyrion being a ruler than into Dany being the Queen. It would be like Varys being all over Connington instead of Aegon and telling him "you HAVE to rule because you're so cool and our Aegon is so young and will fuck up".

[Hayyoth]

As next year's plot is being discussed any thoughts on what Euron will be doing? I'm assuming no Kingsmoot or invasion of the Reach, so they'll likely combine his character with Victarion. We'll find him in Meereen looking for Dany coz reasons. Cue some Dany Euron sex and he'll sail her back to Westeros or something, pure fanfic bullshit. I also fully expect them to whitewash his character, they'll turn him into a watered down version of Jack Sparrow.

[Stannistician]

I can see D&D just giving the Elder Brother's lines to Batfinger. It would also be redundant to have Bran and the world wide weirwood when Batfinger knows everything already.

Batfinger knows everything except the reputation and past of a man that is the heir to the Dreadfort and Winterfell, the greatest fighter in Westeros, and the greatest military genius in history.

[Misnthropia]

I dont think they can have Euron go to Meereen

For me personally, it feels like thats to much going on there if that happens. Presumably were going to have Team Meereen: Tyrion, Varys, Greyworm, Mel. Team Buddy Cop: Jorah and Daario and Team Bangbus: The Dothraki and Dany ft Drogon.

Thats three arcs within that larger arc. Adding Euron there is just feels weird. Whats he going to do? Go see Varys, Varys tells Euron that Dany ran away, so he is on a race to find Dany before Team Buddy Cop finds her? Winner gets the Bad Pussy. Im copywriting that HBO, hands off my storyline.

Id like to see them pillage a bit. Maybe even see them start going inland and raiding some of the villages etc. Then maybe towards end of the season have the story start to intertwine with Loras and Highgarden. I really dont know what their end game is with the Greyjoys. Are they going to continue with the Find Theon story? Are they going to keep Victarions plot or Eurons? I think you are spot on that we are getting Victaeuron next season.

[Follmann]

I hope there's no more people going to Meereen. Can't say I want more of "We miss the Slavers" Bay.