Rant and Rave Without Repercussion: The North Misremembers (Book Spoilers)

[A_Cornered_Wolf]

 

True. They love their deviations.

LF's just hurt because Bad!Cat rejected him! He's a good guy too!

To be fair, I predicted that Sansa and Littlefinger would take Winterfell in the books. Of course, I never thought the show would handle this by sending Sansa to the slaughterhouse.

&

I feel like in the books, LF/Sansa will not retake Winterfell. There is too much other random Northern Lord stuff and Rickon is still around. I do think Sansa's big role in the overall narrative is leading the Vale armies to the North for the big showdown, and that very may well happen after she's disposed of LF.

So another way their deviation with Sansa is self-serving is that now we have a set up where LF gets to manipulate Royce into taking the Armies of the Vale north to 'save her', where normally Royce would likely (especially as set up in the show), tell him to fuck off. But now, LF is the 'master manipulator' at the sake of Sansa's storyline.

[RGBeyondAsshai]

 &

I feel like in the books, LF/Sansa will not retake Winterfell. There is too much other random Northern Lord stuff and Rickon is still around. I do think Sansa's big role in the overall narrative is leading the Vale armies to the North for the big showdown, and that very may well happen after she's disposed of LF.

So another way their deviation with Sansa is self-serving is that now we have a set up where LF gets to manipulate Royce into taking the Armies of the Vale north to 'save her', where normally Royce would likely (especially as set up in the show), tell him to fuck off. But now, LF is the 'master manipulator' at the sake of Sansa's storyline.

I really hope she disposes of LF. Surely she won't go back to him after he married her to Ramsay. Right?! Or if she does, maybe Theon will tell her what he must have overheard about LF's part in her family's demise and this time she won't drop the corkscrew.

[Dolorous Gabe]

I don't know about Selmy. His whole deal is that he is supposedly the world's most honourable living knight and yet spent his whole life serving maniacs and sots. And would have served Joffrey were it not for his dismissal. But anyway, all the KG hit Sansa even though at least one of them (Arys Oakheart) certainly didn't want to. Not that I think Trant cared, but he's supposed to be an amoral soldier following orders, not Satan.

I consider Selmy to ultimately be a simple sort of man. He sees the world in a fairly simple way.

Honour is a tricky word and variably interpretable. Davos may in my opinion be the character who is closest to fitting all criteria of the different interpretations of the word honour.

[RGBeyondAsshai]

Honour is a tricky word and variably interpretable. Davos may in my opinion be the character who is closest to fitting all criteria of the different interpretations of the word honour.

I actually agree with that. He is a genuinely good man. Which makes me surprised he's lasted this long on the show.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Not that I think Trant cared, but he's supposed to be an amoral soldier following orders, not Satan.

We might never know if he cared. Maybe he was a extreme case of Jaime, "going inside". As far as we know, Trant is not like Preston Greenfield who visited whores and he's not as bad as the show made believe.

But I don't think he was a cruel man either.

[Cas Stark]

We might never know if he cared. Maybe he was a extreme case of Jaime, "going inside". As far as we know, Trant is not like Preston Greenfield who visited whores and he's not as bad as the show made believe.

But I don't think he was a cruel man either.

eh, I think we know he's an asshole don't we, from Jamie's assessment of him? But, obviously not a crazed girl beating 'i need a new one every day, oops I meant 3 at a time' sex freak.

[A_Cornered_Wolf]

I really hope she disposes of LF. Surely she won't go back to him after he married her to Ramsay. Right?! Or if she does, maybe Theon will tell her what he must have overheard about LF's part in her family's demise and this time she won't drop the corkscrew.

One can hope, though with the show you never know.

[RGBeyondAsshai]

Can we talk about Sam? Why did they do that to him? I mean, yes he had a fun speech humiliating Slynt to make Jon LC, but I think they made a huge mistake with the Oldtown conversation. Where is the immediacy? The biggest army anyone has ever seen, all undead and led by ice beings that are nearly impossible to kill are on the way. But Sam wants to leave so Gilly won't look at him badly and so he can learn about history. They giggle about sex and someone enjoying the end of the world.

Sam is not that stupid and Jon is not that bad of an LC.

Why did they change that around? One conversation that made Sam look like a runaway and Jon look incompetent. It makes sense that Jon would want more Valyrian steel or more information on all the ways WW can be killed. It would make sense that he would entrust this mission to Sam--both to keep him and the innocent baby safe AND to have someone at the Citadel gathering all the info on the subject. But instead they turned it into an episode of the vampire diaries or something. Sure the end is near, but are you getting any?

One of those changes I can't seem to wrap my head around.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Sam got empowered by sex... unlike Sansa.

[Daphne of House Vakarian]

I have to say thank you guys and thank the Seven that these R&R threads are still alive.

I hope they remain alive all the way until season 6.Pleaseee.

Anyway, so here we discuss the North.

So many awful choices were made.

I am very mad with the Stannis butchering and I am not even a Stannis fan.He didn't deserve this.

Ramsay becoming an invincible demigod. (Seriously?)

Sansa's storyline...LOL...If she ends up in the Vale next season I am gonna laugh...Pathetic.

LF's plan, as someone else explained better upthread...Stupid, pointless.

Plotholes everywhere!!! The horses, 20 good men,Mel's leeches failing? "Schrodinger's Balon"?

The whole trolling with Jon being dead or not, them not establishing warging.Ghost not being there all season, Sam acting like NOT Sam.Alliser stabbing Jon.

FOOKIN' OLLY!

etc.etc.

[Cas Stark]

I think, but am not sure, that we are not supposed to see Jon letting Sam leave as stupid.

We're supposed to see it as good, he's sending him to the Citadel to let him gather more knowledge and protect Gilly. The end.

We're never really supposed to add any more interpretation or thought than what is shown on the screen.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

"Schrodinger's Balon"?

OMG, this is true.

We don't know whether he's dead or alive, so far. Considering the show's story, he could be very well dead already and they simply forgot to tell us. Maybe it will be mentioned in next season: "he died soon after King Joffrey for mysterious reasons".

(Honestly, I think they will show Euron killing him but I wouldn't discard my theory).

[RGBeyondAsshai]

I think, but am not sure, that we are not supposed to see Jon letting Sam leave as stupid.

We're supposed to see it as good, he's sending him to the Citadel to let him gather more knowledge and protect Gilly. The end.

We're never really supposed to add any more interpretation or thought than what is shown on the screen.

But... In the show the situation is kind of dire. I mean really bad. Zombie bad. To have the only person left that supports Jon suddenly say, "By the way, I wanted to ask you to send me away" And he didn't say it was because of the books at the Citadel or gathering help or anything. He said he would rather face down a thousand white walkers than have Gilly hurt by a NW rapist.

And Jon was like...well, okay. At least one of us is getting some.

That is what was on the screen, and it made no sense.

[RGBeyondAsshai]

:lmao:

"Schrodinger's Balon"?

[RGBeyondAsshai]

I have to say thank you guys and thank the Seven that these R&R threads are still alive.

I hope they remain alive all the way until season 6.Pleaseee.

So do I!

[A_Cornered_Wolf]

But... In the show the situation is kind of dire. I mean really bad. Zombie bad. To have the only person left that supports Jon suddenly say, "By the way, I wanted to ask you to send me away" And he didn't say it was because of the books at the Citadel or gathering help or anything. He said he would rather face down a thousand white walkers than have Gilly hurt by a NW rapist.

And Jon was like...well, okay. At least one of us is getting some.

That is what was on the screen, and it made no sense.

And ironically could've been handled by Thorne. Sending Sam to train as a maester to replace Aemon and getting Gilly out of Castle Black fit into Good!Thorne or Evil!Thorne motivations and as acting LC he had the authority to do so. It would've added to Jon's isolation on returning, and might've foreshadowed Thorne had negative plans for Jon without Olly nods. Instead we had to get the 'heh, I got some Jon' scene?

[Cas Stark]

But... In the show the situation is kind of dire. I mean really bad. Zombie bad. To have the only person left that supports Jon suddenly say, "By the way, I wanted to ask you to send me away" And he didn't say it was because of the books at the Citadel or gathering help or anything. He said he would rather face down a thousand white walkers than have Gilly hurt by a NW rapist.

And Jon was like...well, okay. At least one of us is getting some.

That is what was on the screen, and it made no sense.

Lots of what is on the screen makes no sense, like Jon not making a major announcement of yo, we ran into a thousand strong army of the dead and all the wildlings I didn't save are now part of that army.

It was bro bonding, Sam is a nice guy cause he wants to protect Gilly, Jon is a nice guy cause he let's his bro leave. I also thought there was something in there about the citadel and research or something, but maybe i imagined it.

[Ainara S]

OMG, this is true.

We don't know whether he's dead or alive, so far. Considering the show's story, he could be very well dead already and they simply forgot to tell us. Maybe it will be mentioned in next season: "he died soon after King Joffrey for mysterious reasons".

(Honestly, I think they will show Euron killing him but I wouldn't discard my theory).

Ramsay went to Pyke and scared him off with a bunch of angry dogs. It runs in the Greyjoy family, you see.

[kissdbyfire]

I consider Selmy to ultimately be a simple sort of man. He sees the world in a fairly simple way.

Honour is a tricky word and variably interpretable. Davos may in my opinion be the character who is closest to fitting all criteria of the different interpretations of the word honour.

I think Martin uses Selmy to show the difference between honour and duty. While Barry is acknowledged by many as a sort of 'last true knight', and is without a doubt a 'good' man, he still failed to take action in many instances where a more honourable person would have acted.

Words are wind!

The real and true knights in this story are not 'proper knights', like Duncan the Tall and Brienne.

[Nights Kings Queen]

Can we talk about Sam? Why did they do that to him? I mean, yes he had a fun speech humiliating Slynt to make Jon LC, but I think they made a huge mistake with the Oldtown conversation. Where is the immediacy? The biggest army anyone has ever seen, all undead and led by ice beings that are nearly impossible to kill are on the way. But Sam wants to leave so Gilly won't look at him badly and so he can learn about history. They giggle about sex and someone enjoying the end of the world.

When you said this it made me think of two little girls hiding under the blankets talking about boys.

The absurdity of it all is shocking. Is he planning to take the "become a maester in 7 weeks" course?.