Beautiful Balon Posted July 3, 2015 Share Posted July 3, 2015 I agree The North was more vulnerable. But what was Balon's objective? If he just wanted to plunder and gain lands it was a good choice, but, instead, he crowned himself again and became a enemy of Iron Throne too. If your plane is gain independence it was a really stupid plan. But if things go south he can renegotiate, we know that Balon is willing to be flexible about these things "No man has ever died from bending his knee. He who kneels may rise again, blade in hand. He who will not kneel stays dead, stiff legs and all" If the Lannisters start winning then he can bend the knee and get land concessions in the north, If they implode then he has no attachment to them and he can continue his campaign in the north Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thelittledragonthatcould Posted July 3, 2015 Share Posted July 3, 2015 Absolutely pointless series of questions with zero relevance to the current situation in Westeros. Wow! You really think how well defended a country is has zero relevance when deciding to attack? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hodorisfaclessman Posted July 3, 2015 Share Posted July 3, 2015 I agree The North was more vulnerable. But what was Balon's objective? If he just wanted to plunder and gain lands it was a good choice, but, instead, he crowned himself again and became a enemy of Iron Throne too. If your plane is gain independence it was a really stupid plan. it didnt seem likely a united westeros would emerge from the wot5k to be any kind of enemy on the ironthrone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beautiful Balon Posted July 3, 2015 Share Posted July 3, 2015 The only reason Balon's plan failed was because he was killed by a magical assassin. In light of his success I don't think you can call his plan dumb. The same thing happened to Renly and forum consensus is that he played the game almost perfectly. I don't see why Balon should be held to a higher standard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bright Blue Eyes Posted July 3, 2015 Share Posted July 3, 2015 The only reason Balon's plan failed was because he was killed by a magical assassin. In light of his success I don't think you can call his plan dumb. Well, that's the point of contention. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaircat Meow Posted July 3, 2015 Share Posted July 3, 2015 More nonsense. Didn't have a choice? Christ on a bike, you don't half talk some shite. Tywin was weakest as he had ever been, weaker than when Balon burnt his fleet. It was absolutely the right time to attack Tywin and the Westerlands. It's blatantly clear. If you want to attack a united westeros you need to take out the closest fleet to your home base. In the second rebellion that wasn't necessary, as the north and west were at war. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beautiful Balon Posted July 3, 2015 Share Posted July 3, 2015 Well, that's the point of contention. But I don't see him losing the north. 1. Tywin stated explicitly that he is going to let the ironborn and bolton's fight it out, wait for winter to end and then bring in the child of sansa start to rule as a puppet. It's an okay plan but there's a lot of if's in it. He's more or less giving Balon at least five years to consolidate his hold over the north and he's expecting things in the wider realm to stabilize which is a bit of a gamble considering Joffrey is in charge and the instability of the Tyrell lannister alliance. I'm not even gonna go into the personal issues between Joffrey and Tyrion. 2. Roose Bolton is Tywin's man in the north but he's on the wrong side of the Moat. Granted he could have Ramsay muster forces north of the Moat but he's Ramsay, dude doesn't inspire loyalty among nobles nor commonfolk. Also his main allies are the guest right breaking frey's and his plan to hold the north is to marry Farya to his psycho killer son. Both of these things make winning the north's hearts and minds very hard. There's also the problem that his rule is built on the lie that the greyjoy's killed Bran and Rickon and burnt down winterfell and it is not a well kept secret. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bright Blue Eyes Posted July 3, 2015 Share Posted July 3, 2015 But I don't see him losing the north. 1. Tywin stated explicitly that he is going to let the ironborn and bolton's fight it out, wait for winter to end and then bring in the child of sansa start to rule as a puppet. It's an okay plan but there's a lot of if's in it. He's more or less giving Balon at least five years to consolidate his hold over the north and he's expecting things in the wider realm to stabilize which is a bit of a gamble considering Joffrey is in charge and the instability of the Tyrell lannister alliance. I'm not even gonna go into the personal issues between Joffrey and Tyrion. 2. Roose Bolton is Tywin's man in the north but he's on the wrong side of the Moat. Granted he could have Ramsay muster forces north of the Moat but he's Ramsay, dude doesn't inspire loyalty among nobles nor commonfolk. Also his main allies are the guest right breaking frey's and his plan to hold the north is to marry Farya to his psycho killer son. Both of these things make winning the north's hearts and minds very hard. There's also the problem that his rule is built on the lie that the greyjoy's killed Bran and Rickon and burnt down winterfell and it is not a well kept secret. And Balon knew that a year in advance? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thelittledragonthatcould Posted July 3, 2015 Share Posted July 3, 2015 And Balon knew that a year in advance? Why a year? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beautiful Balon Posted July 3, 2015 Share Posted July 3, 2015 And Balon knew that a year in advance? He did know the Iron throne was on shaky ground, Joff's actions and The Bara bro's rebellion confirmed that. As for the situation up north something like that can be predicted, attack a dude's land and weaken and people might betray him because he's weak. In any case if things didn't go well Asha's plan is viable and land gained can be solidified with, marraiges and hostages Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frey Pie Posted July 3, 2015 Share Posted July 3, 2015 He did know the Iron throne was on shaky ground, Joff's actions and The Bara bro's rebellion confirmed that. As for the situation up north something like that can be predicted, attack a dude's land and weaken and people might betray him because he's weak. In any case if things didn't go well Asha's plan is viable and land gained can be solidified with, marraiges and hostages So Balon predicted that the Boltons and freys would commit the huge crime that was the red wedding? I'm sorry but you cannot predict that. Even knowing the people involved it would be hard to and Balon has likely never personally spoken to any of the northern lords. He probably also knew these betrayers would take his son and make him a woman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Blackmont Posted July 3, 2015 Share Posted July 3, 2015 Lol what? Robb dies, and then what? You're acting like there is no way for the Iron Throne to land troops in the North to preserve the Union. Once TKITN dies there is nothing left between Balon and Renly/Stannis/Joff Who WILL NOT accept a broken kingdom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRANDON GREYSTARK Posted July 3, 2015 Share Posted July 3, 2015 What makes Balon stupid was he wanted to return to the old ways and become a king , his actions not allying himself with the Stark or getting some concessions from the Lannisters before he attacked the north . His master plan is all about getting revenge on the Starks . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hodorisfaclessman Posted July 3, 2015 Share Posted July 3, 2015 Lol what?Robb dies, and then what?You're acting like there is no way for the Iron Throne to land troops in the North to preserve the Union. Once TKITN dies there is nothing left between Balon and Renly/Stannis/Joff Who WILL NOT accept a broken kingdom.which one of those 3 though? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Blackmont Posted July 3, 2015 Share Posted July 3, 2015 It doesn't matter. If Stannis hadn't killed Renly, Renly would have likely won. Stannis was waiting on Dragonstone, and wasn't exactly a contender when Balon gave the orders. If not a Baratheon brother, Joff. There are five great fleets in existence, a combination of any two or three could easily challenge the Ironborn. Shields, Lannisport, Arbor, Stannis', and Joff's. It is unlikely that the first three would be destroyed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hodorisfaclessman Posted July 3, 2015 Share Posted July 3, 2015 It doesn't matter.If Stannis hadn't killed Renly, Renly would have likely won. Stannis was waiting on Dragonstone, and wasn't exactly a contender when Balon gave the orders. If not a Baratheon brother, Joff.There are five great fleets in existence, a combination of any two or three could easily challenge the Ironborn.Shields, Lannisport, Arbor, Stannis', and Joff's. It is unlikely that the first three would be destroyed.well lets see based on their positions pre balons attack if renly wins (which means taking KL in the face of resistance from tywin nearby at harrehall) hes still got stannis lurking on dragonstone preparing to challenge him for the stormlands then the throne, riverlands and north also as independent kingdom and unless hes killed tywin you know hes got a powerful enemy there for life prob on top of the tyrell bannermen all wanting to take florent lands first.In terms of dealing with the ironborn hes got the redwyne/reach fleet at the arbour and the small shield islands fleet (38-40ish ships at most)however stannis being stannis with his fleet is the enemy he knows has to be dealt with 1st otherwise hesl wreck havoc along the eastern shore and/or choke of trade there...that means the reach fleet has to be engaged to deal with stannis fleet at sea (no guarantee of winning that) and then the invasion of dragonstone which stannis will no doubt make bloody.bear in mid too if tywin is still alive some of that strength must be left to protect the shields and arbour ports from a vengeful westerlands fleet. that alone will take time and even if sucessful will put a lotta ships outta action even before the land based issues can be dealt with Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bright Blue Eyes Posted July 3, 2015 Share Posted July 3, 2015 Why a year? Ok, I correct myself: Eight months, two weeks and four days in advance. That's from Balon finally giving the word on the invasion to the Red Wedding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thelittledragonthatcould Posted July 4, 2015 Share Posted July 4, 2015 Lol what?Robb dies, and then what?You're acting like there is no way for the Iron Throne to land troops in the North to preserve the Union. Once TKITN dies there is nothing left between Balon and Renly/Stannis/Joff Who WILL NOT accept a broken kingdom. He was trying to counteract by being the one to start negotiating peace with Tywin, he was thinking of the next step and it was clearly not as a rival power. As for landing troops, sure they can do that on the East coast. Balon had not shown any interest in that side (yet) but he would be able to defend his gains on the West Coast with the Ironborn fleet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee-Sensei Posted July 5, 2015 Share Posted July 5, 2015 They offered to weaken the Iron Throne and destroy the Seven Kingdoms as a cohesive entity, something any Ironborn independence movement really needs. They were going to war anyways. The truth is the Starks offered nothing. Balon saw it clearly. They promised to give him a crown (something they have no authority to do) if he destroyed their enemies for him. For a kid in need of allies, Robb was really arrogant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee-Sensei Posted July 5, 2015 Share Posted July 5, 2015 They offered their alliance, and more importantly supported the concept of the Seven Kingdoms being split again. As long the Kingdom of the North&Riverlands would have existed, breaking the Iron Islands Realm wouldn't have been the priority of KL kings wanting to re-unite the whole realm. And would it have managed to survive, other countries like Dorne or the Vale may also have been tempted by independance, weakening the KL power even more. Let's not pretend. Robb was begging people to win his wars for him. He should have been more humble. Balon saw the offer clearly for what it was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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