Who conceived of the Red Wedding?

[Archmaester Drew]

The Red Wedding was clearly a conspiracy between Tywin Lannister, Walder Frey and Roose Bolton -- but whose idea was it? Who approached whom to suggest it?

 

Is it revealed in the text and I just missed it? 

 

It would seem that Roose Bolton approached Walder Frey with the idea after Winterfell was lost, and the Freys and Karstarks left, and then they made a deal with Tywin...

 

Thoughts? :) 

[Logicsbane]

I'm guessing it was Roose....who presented the idea to Tywin, who easily convinced Walder. It could have been Tywin who presented the Roose.....by pretty sure Walder isn't doing shit on his own.

[Fisch]

If I recall correctly, it was cooked up by Frey in collusion with Bolton, and put into motion once they received the silent backing of Tywin.

[Axrendale]

Tywin.

 

After Catelyn and Robb write to the Freys early in ASOS, it is commented on very pointedly (see for example the chapter wherein Karstark murders the hostages) that it takes them a suspiciously long time to send a response. This is obviously when the Red Wedding plot - as distinct from the secret alliance between the Lannisters, Freys, and Boltons, which was already in play - gets hatched.

 

I'd guess that after Walder Frey gets the offer from the Starks to marry Edmure to one of his daughters, he writes to Tywin and Roose seeking instructions/advice. I'd wager that it is Tywin who recognises that if the Freys pretend to accept the offer, it creates the perfect opportunity to strike at the Starks and wipe out their army - but he delegates the job of organising it to Roose.

[Lady Sharya]

This^ seems pretty likely.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Lame Lothar Frey and Roose Bolton arranged it.

 

Tywin and Walder Frey merely Okayed it, but one was clearly too old and the other too far away to actually plan it.

[The Skinner]

I'm pretty sure in Merret's epilogue he states that lame lothar planned it. That being said, who approached who on the actual subject of assassination is unclear, I think.
My guess is Tywin approached a brooding walder Frey first and old lord walder had taken some measure of Roose from his wedding to fat walda, and mentioned him to Tywin, with the Freys being the intermediaries between Roose and Tywin. I mean it was kinda perfect, it's natural for the slighted lord to be approached by the other side and use his connection to a certain ally within the northern ranks.

[White Ravens]

Lame Lothar Frey and Roose Bolton arranged it.

 

Tywin and Walder Frey merely Okayed it, but one was clearly too old and the other too far away to actually plan it.

 

I don't think that you are wrong, necessarily, but how old does one need to be before they lose the ability to plan things?

[Victarion10]

 

I don't think that you are wrong, necessarily, but how old does one need to be before they lose the ability to plan things?

 

I think you lose your ability to plan at the age of 63, with peak planning age being 38.

[Lady Blackmont]

I tend to think Tywin approached Frey, who acted as an intermediary.

The catalyst was likely Catelyn's release of Jaime, as Tywin wouldn't plan any bullshit with his sons like at stake.

[idio]

I never had any doubt it was Tywin because he stood to benefit the most--qui bono.

But you guys being up really interesting points. Can't wait to see more input here.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

 

I don't think that you are wrong, necessarily, but how old does one need to be before they lose the ability to plan things?

 

He is approaching his 92nd birthday, while it is not impossible that people of his age can plot intricate clandestine events like the Red Wedding but the likelihood is that younger minds would plan out the actual details and organization and Walder would just give his consent. Which is what happened as we know that Lame Lothar and Roose planned it between themselves.

[Lady Blackmont]

He is approaching his 92nd birthday, while it is not impossible that people of his age can plot intricate clandestine events like the Red Wedding but the likelihood is that younger minds would plan out the actual details and organization and Walder would just give his consent. Which is what happened as we know that Lame Lothar and Roose planned it between themselves.

Exactly. It's like the prime minister requesting war and then shifting everything to the minister of defense. Walder approved, but likely did not have an active role in the planning.

[Victor227]

Based on Tyrion and Tywin's conversation about it, Tywin approved the assassination of Robb and incentivized it. Walder Frey came up with the spiteful Red Wedding angle, and based on other conversations, the gritty details of the Wedding (down to music) were planned by Roose Bolton and Lame Lothar Frey.

[lancerman]

Roose. He was acting sketchy since he took over Harrenhall. He's pragmatic so once the Lannister/Tyrell alliance beat Stannis, and Jamie was released, he started corresponding with Tywin. Tywin acts really cocky early on in ASOS. Frey was most likely just the opportunity to strike.

[DMC]

Based on Tyrion and Tywin's conversation about it, Tywin approved the assassination of Robb and incentivized it. Walder Frey came up with the spiteful Red Wedding angle, and based on other conversations, the gritty details of the Wedding (down to music) were planned by Roose Bolton and Lame Lothar Frey.

 

 

Winner for most thorough and logical answer.

[Tyrus Martell]

Lame Lothar Frey is an underestimated, overlooked bastard in this series for his involvement in planning the Red Wedding. He's a dangerous man I'd like to see more of in TWOW.

 

I'd also like to see if Raymund Frey ever pops up in the series again and gets his just deserts for the murder of Catelyn - he hasn't been seen or mentioned since ASOS.

[spoon89]

How far back to you want to track it? The initial setup was orchestrated by Tywin, likely around the time of the Battle of Oxcross.

 

This is revealed in two parts, the first is when Tywin and Tyrion are talking about the loss of the Crag and the Westerlings switching alliances due the marriage of Jeyne and Robb. Tyrion is thinking "Rains of Castemere" and Tywin is super calm about it, which surprises Tyrion. The second is when Jamie is talking to Sybell and Jeyne after the fall of Riverrun, with all the details that had been prearranged between Sybell and Tywin.

 

I think Roose hatched the plan when news of Robb's wedding reached him, on top of the news that had arrived previously of loss of the North and death of Bran and Rickon. I take it as a sign when he decided to go wolf hunting in the woods near Harrenhal. After that it was details, sending messages to Walder, then sending word to Tywin to arrange for the benefits for he and Walder for turning cloak, and then arranging all the details with Lame Lothar Frey.

 

All you have to do is look at who benefited most from it. The Freys got pardons and Walders second son took over Riverrun (Emmon Frey whom happens to be married to Tywin's sister). The Boltons got pardons, became a paragon house, wardens of the north and Roose got Ramsey legitimized. 

[Nittanian]

I noticed this excerpt from early ACOK Arya X:

 

"Lord Tywin is many leagues from here," Bolton said calmly. "He has many matters yet to settle at King's Landing. He will not march on Harrenhal for some time."

 

Ser Aenys shook his head stubbornly. "You do not know the Lannisters as we do, my lord. King Stannis thought Lord Tywin was a thousand leagues away as well, and it undid him."

 

The pale man in the bed smiled faintly as the leeches nursed of his blood. "I am not a man to be undone, ser."

 

After this meeting with the Freys, Roose decides to send Helman and Robett to Duskendale and go hunt wolves, and later in the chapter Harrenhal learns of the Westerling marriage. The normal assumption would be Roose believes Tywin has to regroup after the Blackwater. However, might it be possible that Tywin and Roose are already in preliminary contact, and that Tywin has assured Roose he won't be marching on Harrenhal any time soon?

[WTF's a Lommy]

I'd say Tywin.  There was some obvious collusion between him and the Westerlings to break the Stark-Frey alliance.  Roose was probably Tywin's creature from the start.  Convincing an offended Walder Frey to join them was probably pretty easy.