Alarich Posted August 2, 2015 Share Posted August 2, 2015 Are you saying that capitalism and colonialism have nothing to do with North American and European trophy hunters in Africa? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howdyphillip Posted August 2, 2015 Share Posted August 2, 2015 Poaching in Africa has everything to do with poverty and the plight of people in Africa. Effective and sustainable wildlife conservation is an issue that can only be tackled in a much wider cultural and social context. And that means that you'll have to adress the issues of extreme poverty and inequality before anything else. And adressing the causes rather than the symptoms is not obfuscation. No... The issue is that an entitled rich white guy from the US decided to violate laws of a foreign nation and international law to kill a protected animal. He did this through bribes. The economic status of those that he was bribing has little or nothing to do with the situation. for $55,000.00 there are plenty of unethical people both rich and poor that would enable his behavior. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alarich Posted August 2, 2015 Share Posted August 2, 2015 The idea, that bribes and corruption have nothing to do with the economic situation is extremely ignorant but if you want to insist on your narrow view on the issue, there's not much I can do to convince you. In my opinion, the whole issue of trophy hunting is just another aspect of colonialism: rich western people are plundering the natural ressources of African countries and they rely on desperate economic situations, weak institutions and corruption to continue doing this shit. And it won't go away by going tough in trophy hunting, if the incentives and the colonialist attitude of Amercans and Europeans isn't adressed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hayyoth Posted August 2, 2015 Share Posted August 2, 2015 Seeing all this outcries of "why are you grieving over a lion when the entire country is suffering" from the usual suspects of social conservatives is comical. They are acting like they have ever given a quarter of a fuck on what's going on in Zimbabwe. Fox and Friend's web article referred to Africa as a country, for fuck's sake. So no, I don't give a fig what the social conservatives who won't even fund basic social welfare programs for their own fellow citizens have to say about human sufferings in Zimbabwe. The only time they are ever interested in Africa is to export the kill-the-gays laws, impose abstinence only HIV prevention programsnd make some more new Christians through missionary work. They can carry their faux concerns and take a flying leap off of an exploding Hindenburg into a piranha tornado heading to an erupting volcano. This is kinda nonsensical. Criticizing idiots who get het up on social medial about the issue de jour but do precisely fuck all parts of nothing about it should be a pass time for all right thinking humans. We live in a culture saturated by slactivists. Remember Je Suis Charlie? The LRA? Having lots of retweets and a hundred thousand likes on facebook changes nothing. After we all finish grieving over the sad loss of Cecil the Lion Zimbabwe will still be a horrible place run by a deeply evil man. But far be it for me to get in between someone and their sense of self righteousness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tempra Posted August 2, 2015 Share Posted August 2, 2015 No... The issue is that an entitled rich white guy from the US allegedly decided to violate laws of a foreign nation and international law to kill a protected animal. He did this through bribes. The economic status of those that he was bribing has little or nothing to do with the situation. for $55,000.00 there are plenty of unethical people both rich and poor that would enable his behavior. FTFY. I may have just saved you from being brow beaten by the usual suspects about (their selective application of) the presumption of innocence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LogicalLeopard Posted August 2, 2015 Share Posted August 2, 2015 The economic status of those that he was bribing has little or nothing to do with the situation. for $55,000.00 there are plenty of unethical people both rich and poor that would enable his behavior. [emoji51] Are you serious? How many endangered animals are being hunted for sport in the United States using guides? I'm thinking not many, because there are viable forms of alternate employment, and the people who enforce the law can generally not be bribed in turn to look the other way. People are content with their wages and fearful of a rigid judicial system, making $55,000.00 not worth it. If Zimbabwe had similar conditions, your see a drop in trophy hunting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howdyphillip Posted August 2, 2015 Share Posted August 2, 2015 [emoji51] Are you serious? How many endangered animals are being hunted for sport in the United States using guides? I'm thinking not many, because there are viable forms of alternate employment, and the people who enforce the law can generally not be bribed in turn to look the other way. People are content with their wages and fearful of a rigid judicial system, making $55,000.00 not worth it. If Zimbabwe had similar conditions, your see a drop in trophy hunting. You would be wrong in your assertion that poaching doesn't happen for profit in developed countries. http://www.onegreenplanet.org/animalsandnature/5-types-of-poaching-happening-right-here-in-the-u-s/ Poaching is big business right here in the US and it is almost certain that corruption takes place with this kind of cash here as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lancerman Posted August 2, 2015 Share Posted August 2, 2015 Interesting social phenomena going on right now. I do wonder how many people who are angered by the death of this lion eat meat or buy food from historically cruel and inhumane food supplies. I also wonder what the reaction would have been if instead of it being a beautiful lion it was some other uglier endangered animal where people couldn't marvel at how pretty it looked. The cynic in me wonders how superficial this whole thing is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Relic Posted August 2, 2015 Share Posted August 2, 2015 Are you saying that capitalism and colonialism have nothing to do with North American and European trophy hunters in Africa? .... What point are you trying to make? Not registering. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bennis of the Brown Shield Posted August 2, 2015 Share Posted August 2, 2015 Interesting social phenomena going on right now. I do wonder how many people who are angered by the death of this lion eat meat or buy food from historically cruel and inhumane food supplies. I also wonder what the reaction would have been if instead of it being a beautiful lion it was some other uglier endangered animal where people couldn't marvel at how pretty it looked. The cynic in me wonders how superficial this whole thing is. Why is there anything wrong with this though? There's nothing saying that all animals are equal. While any lifeform being threatened with extinction due to humanity is sad, it is completely understandable that people are more concerned for magnificent animals like lions, tigers and elephants than some angry toad or 1001 legged centipede. But in the end lions probably don't have much of a future in the wild anyway. Even if we manage to stop trophy hunting and whatnot Sub Saharan Africa is still projected to more than triple its population in the coming 85 years, and most large animals in the wild there will probably go extinct in the process. Since so much new land will need to be cleared and used for food production. So captivity and perhaps a couple of nature preserves should be the best the lions and company can hope for in the long run. Well, not that long. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lancerman Posted August 2, 2015 Share Posted August 2, 2015 Because it's placing greater value on the life of beautiful things as opposed to not beautiful things. Which says a lot about society in general. If the key thing was how easy the creature was on the ideas it's kind of shallow.I'm not saying I'm in favor of trophy hunting or anything. It's just very telling that every day chickens and cows are treated in the most despicable manner there entire lives until the point where they get slaughtered so they can be shipped off to a grocery store in pieces, but one lion that lives a pretty great life, is free to wonder around with it's pride, gets shot by one hunter and all of sudden people on tv are crying about it. It just comes off as people feeling bad that a pretty thing is gone instead of really placing much of value on life for the sake of life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howdyphillip Posted August 2, 2015 Share Posted August 2, 2015 Because it's placing greater value on the life of beautiful things as opposed to not beautiful things. Which says a lot about society in general. If the key thing was how easy the creature was on the ideas it's kind of shallow. I'm not saying I'm in favor of trophy hunting or anything. It's just very telling that every day chickens and cows are treated in the most despicable manner there entire lives until the point where they get slaughtered so they can be shipped off to a grocery store in pieces, but one lion that lives a pretty great life, is free to wonder around with it's pride, gets shot by one hunter and all of sudden people on tv are crying about it. It just comes off as people feeling bad that a pretty thing is gone instead of really placing much of value on life for the sake of life. I would suggest you start a thread about ugly creature rights... and another one about saving the fucking chickens.... This thread is about a lion that was illegally poached. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lancerman Posted August 2, 2015 Share Posted August 2, 2015 And I'm debating the validity of the reaction to that poached lion in conjunction with other instances of animal cruelty. Have you read the thread, because I'm pretty sure that's been going on since the first or second page.Yeah what happened to that lion sucks, it's a sad thing. I don't think anybody is really saying, "oh fuck it let them kill all the lions they want". Not the case. But imo the issue is that an animal that everybody thinks is "really really pretty" got killed and everybody is sad over it and it's creating an outcry that you don't see with less "pretty" animals that live lives far worse than that lion, and then die far worse. That's sort of an indictment of society, wouldn't you say? This isn't the first animal this poacher posed with trying to look Rambo. But nobody really seemed to care then.If we did that with people (and we sort of do on a much lower level) everyone would start freaking out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kairparavel Posted August 2, 2015 Share Posted August 2, 2015 We (people) do outcry the death of the pretty ones far more than not. See Jonbenet Ramsey and Natalee Holloway. It's super consistent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LogicalLeopard Posted August 2, 2015 Share Posted August 2, 2015 You would be wrong in your assertion that poaching doesn't happen for profit in developed countries. http://www.onegreenplanet.org/animalsandnature/5-types-of-poaching-happening-right-here-in-the-u-s/ Poaching is big business right here in the US and it is almost certain that corruption takes place with this kind of cash here as well. Well, for starters, I didn't just say poaching in developed countries, I said how many animals are being hunted for sport in this country using guides. Basically, in the same vein that this hunt happened; completely out in the open. I appreciate you providing a link in response, but I have to day the information on that page is a bit confusing. In the first entry, it talks about black bear poaching is legal i, the state of Minnesota. Wait....how is "poaching" legal? Isn't it by definition illegal? And if it's legal, it's not poaching. They also mention deer culls, which are legal, and mention out of season hunting. How many people are doing that? And how many for profit? Its really unclear, and makes me wonder about the other information on the page. But this doesn't seem to be akin to the situation in Zimbabwe. I don't know if I could pay someone a few grand to take me to hunt and kill a bald eagle for sport as easily as I could hunt an endangered animal in Zimbabwe. And that is due to economic differences. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fragile Bird Posted August 2, 2015 Author Share Posted August 2, 2015 I am rather pleased we are on page 20 of this thread, so that I will soon no longer have to read the posts of people who believe that you can't express outrage over the manner in which this animal was killed unless you can prove you have been outraged over every other social injustice that has occurred in Africa, from, apparently, the day you first learned to use a computer or write a letter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astromech Posted August 2, 2015 Share Posted August 2, 2015 I am rather pleased we are on page 20 of this thread, so that I will soon no longer have to read the posts of people who believe that you can't express outrage over the manner in which this animal was killed unless you can prove you have been outraged over every other social injustice that has occurred in Africa, from, apparently, the day you first learned to use a computer or write a letter. Well, allow me to assist you in expediting the closing of this thread :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IamMe90 Posted August 2, 2015 Share Posted August 2, 2015 I am rather pleased we are on page 20 of this thread, so that I will soon no longer have to read the posts of people who believe that you can't express outrage over the manner in which this animal was killed unless you can prove you have been outraged over every other social injustice that has occurred in Africa, from, apparently, the day you first learned to use a computer or write a letter. You are probably referring to (at least) me in this post, given the couple of things I have opined in this thread. But I just want to make it absolutely clear: I have been making an observation about a phenomenon that I have witnessed in my personal circle of social media. I [i]am not talking about you guys[/i]. I mean, you guys are the ones participating in the threads about US politics, Russia, Greece, police brutality and pretty much every other contemporary issues and news events. All of you quite obviously care about a vast array of issues affecting society and I don't think it's hypocritical for any of you to get mad about Cecil; I'm kinda mad about it too. The kinds of people I am talking about are just apathetic about virtually everything but still manage to muster up an extreme amount of anger in such rare instances as these. Anyway, with closing of the thread imminent, just wanted to say that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theda Baratheon Posted August 2, 2015 Share Posted August 2, 2015 I would suggest you start a thread about ugly creature rights... and another one about saving the fucking chickens.... This thread is about a lion that was illegally poached. in my personal opinion chickens are subjected to some of the worst horrors ....people might be dismissive because chickens are kinda goofy and not much to look at but the poor things in some of the worst factory farms just make me feel sick to my stomach.... Chickens Forced Into Cannibalism so although this is about cecil and i understand that i think it's a very valid point indeed to say that human beings only care about pretty animals and majestic animals when poor little animals like chickens are being slaughtered and emotionally distressed in the millions yearly... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alarich Posted August 2, 2015 Share Posted August 2, 2015 Relic, the point is, if you really want to do something about poaching, you have to adress the underlying social and cultural issues. Pretending that it somehow is divorced from the social reality and can therefore be solved without adressing our collective western position and priviledge is not going to be enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.