Killing Cecil

[mormont]

[mod] Folks, let's get back to the topic. And the topic is [b]not[/b] what you think of each other. Critique each others' arguments, fine, but don't start with the personal stuff, whether it be amateur psychoanalysis or personal abuse.

 

If you're discussing each other, you're off topic and the post will be deleted. OK? [/mod]

[Cas Stark]

Things I think are ok:

- If there's good reason to believe he committed a crime then extradite him to face trial.

- People who already know him can choose to no longer associate with him and make any negative feelings known.

- People can choose not to use his business.

- People who have no connection to him can discuss his actions online and make public criticisms (or defend him if they so wish).

 

Things I'm not comfortable with:

- Anonymous people sending threats or harassment online directly to a person they've never met and have never had cause to interact with before now.

- Publishing personal ID info. Even if the guy completely deserves it, he won't be the only one affected.

 

I condemn what this guy did, but there's something creepy and disturbing about the way a single action, even an indefensible action, can mobilise millions of anonymous people from around the world to vent their anger and aggression on a lone target.

 

I agree with this, assuming you are talking about his home address.  That's wrong.  As it would be wrong to start publicizing info. about his family, assuming they don't trophy hunt also, LOL.

 

His practice is public knowledge, he advertises, has a web site and FB page, that's fair game.

[Cas Stark]

 

 

 

 

 

The part I think is ethically wrong is the apathy and downright malice people show wrt the actual suffering he has undergone, and thinking it's at all justified. 

 

 

 

Why is this wrong?  I am glad he is suffering.  I wish more people who do terrible things would suffer consequences.  The legal system is not very well equipped to punish people for suffering they cause to animals, so the age old practice of shaming is about all there is.

 

Kind of funny in a way that technology has almost now brought us back to where we're all living in the same small town and gossip can ruin us, also social ostracism and scorn can harm us in a way that it' hasn't been effective for many decades.

[DanteGabriel]

Exactly. You claim he's done a bad thing - I agree. He shouldn't have killed the lion, I think trophy hunting is wrong. However, as I've said, this is not a courtroom. We cannot measure to what extent he has done wrong (even if we had all the facts), and in no way can we either measure or justify a punishment based on that. Therefore, refusing to empathise with him 1) makes the ''trial'' process even more unjust, and 2) means that any punishment is poorly thought out.

 

 

Please tell me which of the following facts are untrue or in dispute:

 

1. Lion was lured out of a protected reserve

2. Lion was wounded with his first shot (I guess he's not as much of a bowhunting bad-ass as he thought) and pursued for 40 hours while hurt

3. After discovering the tracking collar, they tried to destroy the collar, then proceeded to behead and skin the lion

 

Even for something as repugnant as trophy hunting, this is some extra special Awful Person Shit to add to one's account.

 

Ultimately, as ToL said before, I think he should be extradited to Zimbabwe and face justice and a prison term there. So even if he wasn't hounded out of his dental practice by an online lynch mob (which I agree is a problematic and scary phenomenon) his business would likely face extended suspension or closure so his employees were probably screwed one way or the other. The lesson is: don't be a scumbag trophy hunter who lures a protected lion out of a preserve and then tries to destroy the evidence when you realize how badly you fucked up.

[Biglose]

Ultimately, as ToL said before, I think he should be extradited to Zimbabwe and face justice and a prison term there. So even if he wasn't hounded out of his dental practice by an online lynch mob (which I agree is a problematic and scary phenomenon) his business would likely face extended suspension or closure so his employees were probably screwed one way or the other. The lesson is: don't be a scumbag trophy hunter who lures a protected lion out of a preserve and then tries to destroy the evidence when you realize how badly you fucked up.

Would be probably less traumatic for him. Probably another 50.000 or maybe 100.000. African prison terms end when you pay.

[Theda Baratheon]

Why is this wrong?  I am glad he is suffering.  I wish more people who do terrible things would suffer consequences.  The legal system is not very well equipped to punish people for suffering they cause to animals, so the age old practice of shaming is about all there is.
 
Kind of funny in a way that technology has almost now brought us back to where we're all living in the same small town and gossip can ruin us, also social ostracism and scorn can harm us in a way that it' hasn't been effective for many decades.

Yep. We have the facts and the facts are he committed an illegal act and tried to cover up the evidence and that he has done similar BEFORE and that he should be punished for this.

[sologdin]

"What lion?" Zimbabweans ask.

i do appreciate the local response of 'but lions are dangerous animals?', which kinda relegates this thing to the category of 'first world problems' fairly plainly.

[Cas Stark]

Yep. We have the facts and the facts are he committed an illegal act and tried to cover up the evidence and that he has done similar BEFORE and that he should be punished for this.

 

I am hopeful though that this outrage could move us closer to banning trophy hunting altogether.  That would be a much better outcome than just this one guy losing everything.  There are apparently 55,000!! registered trophy hunters worldwide, I think that's right.  WTF??!!!

 

And this not like hunting deer or elk.  I wouldn't enjoy that, but this kind of BS repugnant crap of dragging carcasses around to lure animals so they can be shot and this fucking game reserves where the animals are half tame is a different thing.  

 

If there were millions of lions, I would still never understand the desire to kill one, but it would then just be my opinion, like me not wanting to hunt deer.  There are not millions of lions, it's very possible in our lifetime there will be no more lions in the wild.  Almost certainly there will be no more tigers.

 

These countries should look to Kenya, which has, again I think I'm right, no trophy hunting at all, all their tourism is of people seeing the animals, not killing them.  The rest of these countries need to move in this direction.

 

And, not to get political, but I would much rather international aid money go toward something like this...self sustaining eco tourism to preserve these animals.... than the next dumb as fuck dam project or whatever else may be conjured up to help developing enconomies.

[Theda Baratheon]

I am hopeful though that this outrage could move us closer to banning trophy hunting altogether.  That would be a much better outcome than just this one guy losing everything.  There are apparently 55,000!! registered trophy hunters worldwide, I think that's right.  WTF??!!!
 
And this not like hunting deer or elk.  I wouldn't enjoy that, but this kind of BS repugnant crap of dragging carcasses around to lure animals so they can be shot and this fucking game reserves where the animals are half tame is a different thing.  
 
If there were millions of lions, I would still never understand the desire to kill one, but it would then just be my opinion, like me not wanting to hunt deer.  There are not millions of lions, it's very possible in our lifetime there will be no more lions in the wild.  Almost certainly there will be no more tigers.
 
These countries should look to Kenya, which has, again I think I'm right, no trophy hunting at all, all their tourism is of people seeing the animals, not killing them.  The rest of these countries need to move in this direction.
 
And, not to get political, but I would much rather international aid money go toward something like this...self sustaining eco tourism to preserve these animals.... than the next dumb as fuck dam project or whatever else may be conjured up to help developing enconomies.

I totally agree with everything in this post. I really would rather it sparks an actual debate on trophy hunting and is a first step in attempting to stop it all together rather than this one man just getting shit on. I don't care about him being shit on but I would rather people who are sending him death threats and the like concentrated their energy on getting trophy hunting banned. And hope people can come up with a better way of bringing in money that doesnt result in the deaths of these animals which at this rate will LIKELY be extinct in our life time. Imagine a fucking world where your possible grand kid reads about lions as a thing of the past. I care about these things because we live on this fucking beautiful planet with amazing wild life and we're just shitting all over it and abusing the creatures we should be attempting to live with and share the world with not killing them all. Human beings are so fckin arrogant.

[Fragile Bird]

Zimbabwe has a problem, in that they have a rather repugnant leader in Mugabe, and helping Zimbabwe gets conflated into supporting Mugabe.

There was just a news flash saying that Zimbabwe was looking into extraditing the doctor.

While searching stories about big game hunting, I came across a rather repugnant story about a group of European and American trophy hunters out in western Canada who sat in trees waiting for black bears being lured by a tub of honey coated meat. That was incredibly disgusting as well. That is not hunting, that's shooting fish in a barrel. The laws should be changed to forbid hunting by baited trap. I mean, ffs, how is that even hunting? Hunting, I always understood, meant going out to the forest and tracking an animal and shooting it. Skill, stamina and patience were involved.

At least the British call grouse shooting just plain old shooting, not hunting.

[Theda Baratheon]

For all the reasons I've mentioned in my previous post/s. Essentially, it's unjust and unfair, and those don't seem to matter if you're on the right side.
 
 

 

Umm, none of those. I'm not disputing that the guy broke the law, or that he did something wrong. I am disputing that the internet backlash is ''justice'', or that those facts are all we need to have a fair mock trial.

But no one here is advocating violence or their own types of punishment on him but expressing the wish he gets extradited for his crime and punished...still fail to see where you're going with your posts other than to again play devils advocate. No one here is gleefully wishing death on him.

[sologdin]

forest and tracking an animal and shooting it. Skill, stamina and patience were involved.

with bare hands! or a sharp rock at most, for children, maybe.

[Cas Stark]

I totally agree with everything in this post. I really would rather it sparks an actual debate on trophy hunting and is a first step in attempting to stop it all together rather than this one man just getting shit on. I don't care about him being shit on but I would rather people who are sending him death threats and the like concentrated their energy on getting trophy hunting banned. And hope people can come up with a better way of bringing in money that doesnt result in the deaths of these animals which at this rate will LIKELY be extinct in our life time. Imagine a fucking world where your possible grand kid reads about lions as a thing of the past. I care about these things because we live on this fucking beautiful planet with amazing wild life and we're just shitting all over it and abusing the creatures we should be attempting to live with and share the world with not killing them all. Human beings are so fckin arrogant.

 

You sort of thought that the soylent green future...where the old man goes to die and he watches film of the beauty of nature that is all gone and destroyed...was going to be impossible, that was the 70s? but 40 years later, we don't seem to have to put in practice much of what we've learned.  Sad.

 

I always think back to Agent Smith's line from the matrix:

 

Agent Smith: I'd like to share a revelation that I've had during my time here. It came to me when I tried to classify your species and I realized that you're not actually mammals. Every mammal on this planet instinctively develops a natural equilibrium with the surrounding environment but you humans do not. You move to an area and you multiply and multiply until every natural resource is consumed and the only way you can survive is to spread to another area. There is another organism on this planet that follows the same pattern. Do you know what it is? A virus. Human beings are a disease, a cancer of this planet. You're a plague and we are the cure.

[DanteGabriel]

 

 

I always think back to Agent Smith's line from the matrix:

 

Agent Smith: I'd like to share a revelation that I've had during my time here. It came to me when I tried to classify your species and I realized that you're not actually mammals. Every mammal on this planet instinctively develops a natural equilibrium with the surrounding environment but you humans do not. You move to an area and you multiply and multiply until every natural resource is consumed and the only way you can survive is to spread to another area. There is another organism on this planet that follows the same pattern. Do you know what it is? A virus. Human beings are a disease, a cancer of this planet. You're a plague and we are the cure.

 

Sorry for the total off-topic-ness, but I just had to share that I think of that speech whenever I see Hugo Weaving do anything, including Elrond. "The elves are leaving Middle Earth... It's the smell!"

[sologdin]

this sort of misanthropy is just a derivative of lumpenized antisocial nihilism. barf!

[Theda Baratheon]

You sort of thought that the soylent green future...where the old man goes to die and he watches film of the beauty of nature that is all gone and destroyed...was going to be impossible, that was the 70s? but 40 years later, we don't seem to have to put in practice much of what we've learned.  Sad.
 
I always think back to Agent Smith's line from the matrix:
 
Agent Smith: I'd like to share a revelation that I've had during my time here. It came to me when I tried to classify your species and I realized that you're not actually mammals. Every mammal on this planet instinctively develops a natural equilibrium with the surrounding environment but you humans do not. You move to an area and you multiply and multiply until every natural resource is consumed and the only way you can survive is to spread to another area. There is another organism on this planet that follows the same pattern. Do you know what it is? A virus. Human beings are a disease, a cancer of this planet. You're a plague and we are the cure.[/size]

yeah, I particularly like the matrix quote and always have because it's...true and still you see the same "lol its just an animal humans are at the top of the food chain ROAR" comments in this thread. Personally I find that horrible.

[Theda Baratheon]

this sort of misanthropy is just a derivative of lumpenized antisocial nihilism. barf!

i don't consider myself a misanthrope. I care about people but i also care about animals and find the treatment of them at the hands of human beings what is 'barf' worthy tbh with you.

[Bennis of the Brown Shield]

I totally agree with everything in this post. I really would rather it sparks an actual debate on trophy hunting and is a first step in attempting to stop it all together rather than this one man just getting shit on. I don't care about him being shit on but I would rather people who are sending him death threats and the like concentrated their energy on getting trophy hunting banned. And hope people can come up with a better way of bringing in money that doesnt result in the deaths of these animals which at this rate will LIKELY be extinct in our life time. Imagine a fucking world where your possible grand kid reads about lions as a thing of the past. I care about these things because we live on this fucking beautiful planet with amazing wild life and we're just shitting all over it and abusing the creatures we should be attempting to live with and share the world with not killing them all. Human beings are so fckin arrogant.

It's not certain that a ban on trophy hunting would actually do much good though. Most of the threat to these animals today comes from poaching rather than legal hunting anyway. 

 

Rather than a legal ban it would probably do more good to try to stop whatever makes Westerners enjoy hunting lions, and what makes Chinese people think that ground down Rhino horns make their penises grow larger, cures their cancers, or whatever.

 

Social ostracism could maybe be effective against the first thing? It would probably be a lot more boring to have a lion trophy at home if you can't show it to other people without them becoming outraged. 

[Trebla]

So after this story first broke, the dentist wrote a letter to his patients explaining what happened and that his practice would be temporarily closing. Near the end of the letter, he stated, "I have not been contacted by authorities in Zimbabwe or in the U.S. about this situation, but will assist them in any inquiries they may have,".

 

Yeah...not so much. http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/speaking-of-science/wp/2015/07/30/u-s-officials-cant-find-the-dentist-who-killed-cecil-the-lion/?tid=sm_tw
 

 

The U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service wants to talk to Walter Palmer. But it can't find him.

Investigators for the service have knocked on the front door of Palmer's house, stopped by his dental office, called his telephone numbers and filled his inbox with e-mails. Palmer, a hunting enthusiast who illegally killed a rare African lion in Zimbabwe early this month, couldn't be lured out of hiding.

 

“I’m sure he knows” the government is looking for him, Ed Grace, chief of law enforcement for the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service, told The Washington Post on Thursday. “We’ve made repeated attempts to try and get in contact with him.”

 

 

Sure, he may be hiding because of all the threats that have been made. For the record, I don't condone those against him or any other kinds of threats made by "internet lynch mobs". However, I don't think that's why he has disappeared. I think it has more to do with the charges he faces both here and abroad.
.

 

If and when he's found, Palmer could face an expedition *extradition request from officials in Zimbabwe, who have signaled a request to pursue one.

 

"We are appealing to the responsible authorities for his extradition to Zimbabwe so that he can be held accountable for his illegal action," Zimbabwe's environment minister Oppah Muchinguri said at a news conference on Friday, according to Reuters. As of Friday morning, U.S. officials said they had not received a request.

---------------------

Palmer has had plenty of time since to contact U.S. authorities, Grace said. He should know how to reach the agency “because we convicted him for lying about a bear kill" in Wisconsin in 2009, Grace said. Federal officials want to get Palmer’s version of what went wrong in a hunt that killed a rare lion with a black mane. Cecil was iconic in Zimbabwe, his fame worth at least $100,000 annually in eco-tourism, wildlife officials said.

----------------------

Palmer’s actions could have violated the U.S. Lacey Act, a conservation law meant to shield animals from harm. The act, tied to a United Nations treaty for the protection of animals, governs the actions of Americans who violate the laws of foreign governments.

 

Grace also said the State Department is looking into the matter in Africa. Officials at the State Department did not respond to a request to confirm that information. The three agencies often work closely to investigate crimes against wildlife, often involving the poaching of elephants and rhinoceros throughout southern Africa

 

*I corrected the "expedition request" in the article.

[Cas Stark]

Where's he going to go?  He's a dentist.  He may be an extremely successful dentist, but he's not an oligarch with billions and a stash of diamonds and gold bullion to allow him to flee and go live on a private island.