How unreasonable was Rickard Karstark?

[KimberBenton]

I had no idea this was such a rich topic for discussion. Though I suppose if it involves Catelyn doing so much as buttering toast any thread can invoke heated responses from both sides of the spectrum.

ETA: It's especially impressive considering that the "Content I follow" feature is still buggered. Assuming that problem isn't exclusive to me now.

 

Well, since it was clear that Rickards reaction was made from the many things that happened before there would be those defending Cat and Robb and those thinking they made some pretty big mistakes as well. Also in it there are the differences between our sociaty and the sociaty of Westeros. This was pretty much bound to clash. :) But there is  nothing wrong with a good discussion as long as everyone keeps an open mind.

[Lykos]

Here is what I think about releasing Jaime.

 

What  you also need to consider is that the situation, had dramatically changed at the time Catelyn released Jaime.

• Cat had just learned that Stannis was going to attack King´s Landing.
• Stannis regarded Robb (the King in the North) as a rebel.
• Stannis had used dark magic to kill his brother.
• Stannis had added most of the Stormland´s troops and probably some of the Reach to his - making it likely that he´d take King´s Landing.
• Jaime is of little value in negotiations with Stannis.
• Tywin´s hand wasn´t stayed in the slightest by Robb holding Jaime at Riverrun - he had just attacked the fords and was held back by Edmure.
• Cat was told by Cleos that Tyrion gave his word to exchange the girls for Jaime.
• Cat and Tyrion had developed a certain respect for each other - Tyrion saved Cat from a member of the Mountain Clans and Cat let him travel armed and unbound.
• Cat had just learned that Bran and Rickon were killed by Theon, who had taken Winterfell - making Sansa Robb´s heir.
• Cat knew that Robb had to leave the war in the Riverlands to win back the Stark´s seat

The weak points of her plan to release Jaime was that she had no proper guards to send him with, but time was an issue again, and the emotional response that was to be expected by Robb's bannermen for losing such a "great prize".  She was willing to take the blame for it, and I think part of why she did it, was that she knew Robb's men would forgive a grieving mother sooner than their King.

 

From here.

[Tijgy]

(I must admit I did not read the page 6-12)

 

In Robb own words about Harrion Karstark: 

 

"Even if Harrion were that sort, he could never openly forgive his father’s killer. His own men would turn on him. These are northmen, Uncle. The north remembers"

 

So if you replace Harrion with Robb, Robb would never be able to just to forgive the Lannister. It was necessary at least to reject the claim of the Lannisters/Baratheons. And this does not counts for the Northmen, but I must also mention the atmosphere in Dorne after Oberyn's. The people there were almost revolting, while Oberyn died in a duel and while Doran was their leader for years (unlike Robb who became only recently their leader de facto). And I think Ned was almost beloved by his people as the Dornish loved their prince Oberyn.

 

Also to Robb, his example of being a good leader to your people was his father. And what did Ned do after his father's and brother's death?

 

So I seriously believe Robb did not have a lot of other choices than making the decision going north and refusing the claim of the Lannisters on the North. Was one of his advisers convincing him do something otherwise? I might be wrong, but it was only until later Cat was saying to him it was no dishonor to bow before the Lannisters.

 

 

As an answer to the OP. Rickard was indeed not really lead by reason when he decided to murder the hostages. It is possible to say the same thing about Cat. Both were mainly lead by their love, grief or fear for their children. And both actions did impair Robb campaign. But I think the major difference between those acts is the fact Rickard's act consisted in killing two children. 

 

You can indeed argue those two acts were both politically detrimental for his campaign, but Rickard's act was also very moral wrong. I sincerely believe there is a difference between those acts and you cannot say the act of Rickard deserves less or the same punishment as the act of Catelyn.

 

In every society, the person who decides the punishment for the crime, is the person who holds the power (and in modern western states, you have the separation/balance of power, the sine legem nulla poena-principle and most of the time a judge who decided the concrete punishment). And for the Northmen at that moment, it was Robb who decided which crime deserved which punishment. (However I am against the death penalty), I actually agree with the fact Robb punished Rickard harder than Cat, just because he actually committed murder.

 

I must admit however Robb was actually not completely reasonable, when he made his decisions. 

When you are busy with criticizing Robb's decision, you must not forget, I believe, the following points:

 

First of all, he would never be able to punish Cat harshly and certainly not give her the death penalty, because she was his mother. 

 

Second of all, the man who is his example, who was the person who influenced Robb's moral and ethical norms (Ned of course), was totally against the killing of children, which was shown numerous times during the books: his moral outrage on the death of Elia's children, his opinion on the planned assassination of Dany and her unborn child, he warned Cersei so she would be able to protect her children, ...

 

(I must however admit this is in strange contrast with the fact Theon was still his hostage; a subject which also lead to numerous discussions on this site)

 

Third of all, something which I believe affected the most Robb's decision to punish Karstark so harshly, is the fact the murder of the two hostages actually resembles the death of Bran and Rickon. They were all hostages, young and killed by the people who hold them "in prison". If you reread the chapter, one of the major arguments Robb keep saying is the fact they were boys, like his brothers. I believe in one way he unconsciously was trying to killing Theon in his own mind for the death of his brothers, when he killed Karstark; that Karstark became the symbol of the people who were killing young hostages.

And because of this, Robb was actually also not entirely rational, when he made the decision to kill Karstark.

[KimberBenton]

Here is what I think about releasing Jaime.

 

What  you also need to consider is that the situation, had dramatically changed at the time Catelyn released Jaime.

• Cat had just learned that Stannis was going to attack King´s Landing.
• Stannis regarded Robb (the King in the North) as a rebel.
• Stannis had used dark magic to kill his brother.
• Stannis had added most of the Stormland´s troops and probably some of the Reach to his - making it likely that he´d take King´s Landing.
• Jaime is of little value in negotiations with Stannis.
• Tywin´s hand wasn´t stayed in the slightest by Robb holding Jaime at Riverrun - he had just attacked the fords and was held back by Edmure.
• Cat was told by Cleos that Tyrion gave his word to exchange the girls for Jaime.
• Cat and Tyrion had developed a certain respect for each other - Tyrion saved Cat from a member of the Mountain Clans and Cat let him travel armed and unbound.
• Cat had just learned that Bran and Rickon were killed by Theon, who had taken Winterfell - making Sansa Robb´s heir.
• Cat knew that Robb had to leave the war in the Riverlands to win back the Stark´s seat

The weak points of her plan to release Jaime was that she had no proper guards to send him with, but time was an issue again, and the emotional response that was to be expected by Robb's bannermen for losing such a "great prize".  She was willing to take the blame for it, and I think part of why she did it, was that she knew Robb's men would forgive a grieving mother sooner than their King.

 

All very good points, but I doubt that was her thinking. I don't think that she gave it a lot of thought, but just acted in a very emotionally way, like mothers sometimes do, when their children are involved. That is the problem with Cat. She has clear logical thoughts and snaps from one moment to the other. It's the same the night she snatches Tyrion from the inn. She is up in her room, looking out of the window thinking, that they could not let it come to war. Rational as a person could be. Then she goes downstairs, sees Tyrion and snaps. Had she thought it through, she would have come to the conclusion, that that might lead to the very war she was trying to avoid. The same goes for the thing with Jaime. She might think that Robb couldn't make this choice, but she had no right to make it for him. In all the other chapters she is very rationally thinking, that she can not tread Robb as a child, and yet she make a huge decision for him, and leaves him with an even worse choice. Protecting his mother or punishing her for treason.

[A-Faceless-Woman]

That's quite a thread! 

 

From what I've read, I wanted to point out: 

- Robb summoned his liege lords around the same time when Ned was put in the black cells. The liege lords answered to Robb's call because Eddard Stark was imprisoned. Given the respect Ned inspired the North lords, I doubt they were forced into war. As it was said before, in feudal system, the allegiance goes to the liege lord first, and then to the crown.

- Robb was acclaimed King in the North after Ned was beheaded by his liege lords. He certainly didn't ask for it. They decided to go South, altogether, in a war council. Accordingly, it was not Robb's war, it was the North's War. Karstark was certainly not going against his own will. (Also, Jaime's life was supposed to be traded for Ned's life)

- I don't completely agree Robb betrayed the Frey's trust for love: from his discussion with his mum about it, it doesn't seem like he felt in love with Jeyne. She comforted him when he was injured. Not to dishonor her, he married her. Talk about love.... Love was in the TV Show. (He doesn't make his choice very logical and reasonable though)

- Now answering to the direct question: Karstark was irrational and blinded by revenge. It is not ok to murder two hostages in their prison cells. In times of war, there are rules of chivalry and such. Killing hostages goes against those rules. 

- Was Robb right in beheading him? No way. 

- Cat betrayed him by releasing Jaime. But releasing someone is not as much a treason as murdering two hostages though. Robb should have done something to punish his mum though. 

- Finally, in my opinion, considering Karstark got justice by killing those two hostages for the life of his two sons is the same as saying the Freys got justice with the RW. The Freys's RW was a petty revenge. So was Karstark's. 

[SeanF]

That's because Cat's actions endangered any northerner in the field to the benefit of the Lannisters.

Catelyn's actions had no bearing on any soldier's position in the field.

[HexMachina]

Everything had to do with Robb and his family and not with the North. People died because Robb wanted revenge. The least he could do for them was to give them justice.

Hmm? Maybe you could check the last Catelyn chapter of a Game of Thrones. The Lords of the North are all for War there.

“Catelyn was thinking of her girls, wondering if she would ever see them again, when the Greatjon lurched to his feet.
“MY LORDS!” he shouted, his voice booming off the rafters. “Here is what I say to these two kings!” He spat. “Renly Baratheon is nothing to me, nor Stannis neither. Why should they rule over me and mine, from some flowery seat in Highgarden or Dorne? What do they know of the Wall or the wolfswood or the barrows of the First Men? Even their gods are wrong. The Others take the Lannisters too, I’ve had a bellyful of them.” He reached back over his shoulder and drew his immense “two-handed greatsword. “Why shouldn’t we rule ourselves again? It was the dragons we married, and the dragons are all dead!” He pointed at Robb with the blade. “There sits the only king I mean to bow my knee to, m’lords,” he thundered. “The King in the North!””

It's hardly fair to say that it was all about Robb wanting revenge. The other Lords wanted this war of independence too.

[Bobby b's bobby]

Hmm? Maybe you could check the last Catelyn chapter of a Game of Thrones. The Lords of the North are all for War there.
It's hardly fair to say that it was all about Robb wanting revenge. The other Lords wanted this war of independence too.

You're not going to win it's a lost cause

[Vastet]

Rickard crossed the line by killing two boys. I certainly understand his frustration and anguish, and can see why he would do it, but it was incredibly foolish.

However, it was also foolish to execute him. Robbs advisors were spot on when they recommended holding him hostage. He should have been locked up to force the cooperation of his house. You sometimes have to sacrifice justice to win the war. That execution was almost as big an error as Robb breaking his vow to marry a Frey.

[A Bastard Snow]

Another Starks are scumbags for starting all wars ever fought thread.
Like the fact that Cersei and Jamie had an incestuous relationship that produced 3 children one of whom is a psychotic sadist whose Grandfather had Elia raped and murdered along with a babe and a child and then sent those men to go around the Riverlands doing the same shit.Clearly they are all blameless.

Fucking Scumbag Ned Stark should have smashed Tommens head against the wall stabbed Myrcella a hundred times and raped Cersei to death as that's clearly the right thing to do as it would have prevented the war.

People find hilarious ways to blame Ned and Robb for everything.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Hmm? Maybe you could check the last Catelyn chapter of a Game of Thrones. The Lords of the North are all for War there.
It's hardly fair to say that it was all about Robb wanting revenge. The other Lords wanted this war of independence too.

Quit true. However I believe that if Robb had stayed at WF, because lets face it Ned was a dead man once he got into those Cells, the Northmen wouldn't had started to go to war on their own.

[A Bastard Snow]

Quit true. However I believe that if Robb had stayed at WF, because lets face it Ned was a dead man once he got into those Cells, the Northmen wouldn't had started to go to war on their own.

And Robb would not have been Lord of Anything as his bannermen would never respect him.A man who wont even fight for his family wont fight for anything.

[Modesty Lannister]

In addition to what the others said there is also the issue of how his actions put in jeopardy his remaining son and daughter.  Ending up dead, his family in danger, promising his daughter to whoever would kill Jaime, with someone like Vargo wanting the price and she ends up running to Jon Snow in Dance to escape from Arnolf Karkstark's machinations to marry her to his son. Richard's uncle Arnolf Karkstark declares for Stannis hoping that when the Iron throne will learn of it, they will execute Richard's son Harrion and marry his son to Allys. Now, if he had lost everything, he still would be wrong, but it would be more understandable, but he still had a son, albeit imprisoned, though if he succeeded at killing Jaime they would probably had executed his son in return, and he also had a daughter. What value he gave to them? 

As you pointed out, Rickard's actions make no sense. And whenever something makes no sense in ASOIAF, one has to take one step back from the POV that tells us about events - in this case Catelyn's (which has proven to be quite unreliable) and try to deduce what is fact and what is Catelyn's impression. The fact is that Karstark killed a Lannister and a Frey. Not much later these two families will prove to be in cahoots to kill Robb. If Robb had eyes to see what marriages occurred in the past, he would have seen that the only lord paramount house that actually married a Frey are the Lannisters. So, by murdering a Lannister and a Frey boy, wasn't Karstark trying to "name and shame" by deed rather than words? His son was a prisoner of Randyll Tarly. It is customary to negotiate ransom terms between houses. It is reasonable to assume Karstark corresponded with Tarly. Both men are seasoned warriors and know rules of war well. Karstark's son ended up in captivity because Bolton sent him and others to Duskendale and a certain defeat. Was Rickard Karstark aware of this? I wonder. What we do not know is what were Tarly's terms for release (or life) of Rickard's son. By killing two boys, Rickard effectively created a situation where he forced Robb's hand. Whatever Robb had done, Karstarks would have walked away from the alliance. Had Robb let it slide, the alliance would have fallen apart, because Freys would have walked out. My belief is that Rickard agreed his son's release (or life) in exchange for walking away from the northern alliance. He fulfilled these terms, but at the same time tried to warn Robb who is about to betray him in a biggest possible way. I believe Rickard Karstark sacrificed himself for his son's life and to warn his kin Stark of what was to come. Since we only have Catelyn's POV, we cannot see this clearly.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

And Robb would not have been Lord of Anything as his bannermen would never respect him.A man who wont even fight for his family wont fight for anything.

On one hand we have attacking innocent people and leading your men to death and on the other take a lesson from what Torrhen did. 

[Bobby b's bobby]

On one hand we have attacking innocent people and leading your men to death and on the other take a lesson from what Torrhen did. 

Because those 2 situations are the same.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Because those 2 situations are the same.

Exactly the same. There was no possibility at all that Robb could win. So the best thing to do was stay where he was and wait.

[Tijgy]

On one hand we have attacking innocent people and leading your men to death and on the other take a lesson from what Torrhen did. 

 

The Lannisters were the one who started to attack the smallfolk in the Riverlands. It was only late in the war the Northmen started to raid the Westerlands, and I think the plunder was meant to be given to the people in the Riverlands, who were plundered by the Lannisters.

It is the classic story of economic warfare. 

(and in our modern opinion, both side were wrong in doing that).

 

@ Modesty Lannister: Nice theory ;-)

[Bobby b's bobby]

Exactly the same. There was no possibility at all that Robb could win. So the best thing to do was stay where he was and wait.

When robb marched south he had a decent chance of winning then after he captured jaime and renly was crowned an even bigger chance so long as stannis wasn't crazy and not on team baratheons live and win.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

The Lannisters were the one who started to attack the smallfolk in the Riverlands. It was only late in the war the Northmen started to raid the Westerlands, and I think the plunder was meant to be given to the people in the Riverlands, who were plundered by the Lannisters.

It is the classic story of economic warfare. 

(and in our modern opinion, both side were wrong in doing that).

The Riverlands were not the North. I believe that Robb had good intentions but you know the saying as the saying goes the way to hell is paved with good intentions.

 

When robb marched south he had a decent chance of winning then after he captured jaime and renly was crowned an even bigger chance so long as stannis wasn't crazy and not on team baratheons live and win.

Oh c'mon! Do you really believed that he had a chance to win?  :lmao:

[Beautiful Balon]

Quit true. However I believe that if Robb had stayed at WF, because lets face it Ned was a dead man once he got into those Cells, the Northmen wouldn't had started to go to war on their own.

 

If he was allowed to stay at Winterfell then that might've worked, but he was summoned to kings landing to swear fealty and both he and Cat worried that if they did that they would be imprisoned or the lose the respect of their lords. And it's not like his decision was awful, his goals for the war were to kick the Lannisters from the riverlands, get a victory to show strength and get a hostage so he can get his father back. He achieved all of this it's just that Joffrey Joffreyed all over the situation.

 

 

 

Also Ned was in no way a dead man once he got into the cells, All the powerful people in kings landing wanted him alive to prevent a war between the North and Tywin was willing to exchange Jaime for Ned