How unreasonable was Rickard Karstark?

[The Khal Who Rode West]

He acted irrationally. They didn't help kill his sons. And while I understand him wanting revenge, but his sons died in battle. Jaime didn't murder them.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

If he was allowed to stay at Winterfell then that might've worked, but he was summoned to kings landing to swear fealty and both he and Cat worried that if they did that they would be imprisoned or the lose the respect of their lords. And it's not like his decision was awful, his goals for the war were to kick the Lannisters from the riverlands, get a victory to show strength and get a hostage so he can get his father back. He achieved all of this it's just that Joffrey Joffreyed all over the situation.

What Cat was worrying about isn't always what was truth.

 

Also Ned was in no way a dead man once he got into the cells, All the powerful people in kings landing wanted him alive to prevent a war between the North and Tywin was willing to exchange Jaime for Ned

Sure. Absolutely no powerful friends and Lannisters on the Throne. Sure.

[Jasta11]

It's pretty understandable, it's one thing to be denied vengeance when the Kingslayer's a valuable prisoner. It's another to be denied it when the King's mother sets him free. 

 

Given that Robb already determined Jaime was off-limits as far as blood feuds were concerned, I'm not sure how Catelyn freeing Jaime denies him his vengeance. Unless he planned to sneak up and kill Jaime without Robb's consent, which would also be treason as well as a political move even stupider than Cat's.

 

Rickard was grief-stricken and that's understandable, but he was highly irrational and comitted both child murder and treason in one go. I do believe Robb should have sent him (under guard) to the Wall instead of killing him, but anything below those two punishments would show that the King in the North isn't meaning business.

 

Besides, yes, Robb let his mother go and it was nepotism (he still wanted to punish her in a way by dumping her in Seaguard for the rest of the war after the RW but still). But given that the entire social structure of Westeros is founded upon nepotism, that's hardly some kind of damning flaw is it?

[Tijgy]

 

The Riverlands were not the North. I believe that Robb had good intentions but you know the saying as the saying goes the way to hell is paved with good intentions.

 

(...)

 

 

And he was going to help his grandfather, his uncle and was finally also named King by the lords of the Riverlands. So I don't really understand why you are making a distinction between the Riverlands and the North here? 

 

And about the way to hell... the sad thing about all war (in all times, even now) is the leaders will never think about the consequences to the smallfolk of the enemy. They will plunder, raid, ... them because they believe it will hurt the leaders of the enemy. They do not think about the consequences for the smaller men. However at the same time Robb believed it would lure Tywin back to the Westerlands; because it is duty of the lord to protect his own people (and not the people of the enemy).

 

So yeah, the decisions of Robb lead indeed to hurt of people who never attacked him and those people were sadly "collateral damage" in the way to hurt Tywin. But this can be said almost every war. 

 

But to be honest, I think a lot of people are trying to criticize Robb too hard. When people are starting to argue about his decision to behead Karstark, he made a mistake because he had to sacrifice justice for victory. On the other side, he made the mistake to go to war, he plundered the enemy's small folk and that was morally wrong? ...

 

But I think that an entire discussion on Robb's "mistakes" was not really the subject of this thread. So maybe someone should create (again) a thread, if he or she wants to discuss. But I must confess I cannot shy away from defending Robb ;-)  Edit: and maybe returning to the subject of the thread: the decision of Rickard to kill the hostages and related subjects

[Beautiful Balon]

 

What Cat was worrying about isn't always what was truth.

 

Cat is a politically astute woman, she arranged the Frey alliance, told Robb not to free Theon and predicted what Robb should do when the war started, which he did perfectly. She may have impulse control issues but that does not make her dumb

 

 

 

Sure. Absolutely no powerful friends and Lannisters on the Throne. Sure.

 

Yeah, the Lannisters were on the throne and they wanted him alive, Tywin calls his death madness and stupidity, Varys goes out of his way to make sure that Ned cooperates with the night watch plan, We have Cersie's own words that she did not want to execute Ned. During the execution Pycelle is freaking out. The small council and the Lannisters wanted Ned to live.

 

[Jon's Queen Consort]

And he was going to help his grandfather, his uncle and was finally also named King by the lords of the Riverlands. So I don't really understand why you are making a distinction between the Riverlands and the North here? 

There was no reason for the Northern Lords and soldiers to die for the Riverlanders.

Cat is a politically astute woman, she arranged the Frey alliance, told Robb not to free Theon and predicted what Robb should do when the war started, which he did perfectly. She may have impulse control issues but that does not make her dumb

That doesn't mean that what she said was awful and proved what she thought about the innocents dying.

[Jasta11]

There was no reason for the Northern Lords and soldiers to die for the Riverlanders.

 

 

You mean apart from the fact that they both are Robb's subjects now, with all the obligations this implies?

 

Using this logic, why the heck should the Riverlanders fight to free/avenge Ned? He's just some guy that married in the family after all.

 

And the entire notion that the Northern lords were dragged off to war is total nonsense. We have several textual proofs on display that shows they were ready and eager to get in the fight. They went so far as to crown Robb (with the escalation this implies) on the spot after Ned died. Karstark was very much there because he wanted to be.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

You mean apart from the fact that they both are Robb's subjects now, with all the obligations this implies?

 

Using this logic, why the heck should the Riverlanders fight to free/avenge Ned? He's just some guy that married in the family after all.

 

And the entire notion that the Northern lords were dragged off to war is total nonsense. We have several textual proofs on display that shows they were ready and eager to get in the fight. They went so far as to crown Robb (with the escalation this implies) on the spot after Ned died. Karstark was very much there because he wanted to be.

I agree. I don't see why people should die because Robb wanted revenge. 

[Modesty Lannister]

 

@ Modesty Lannister: Nice theory ;-)

 Thank you. I do not believe in unreasonable behavior. There is always a reason.

[David Selig]

 Thank you. I do not believe in unreasonable behavior. There is always a reason.

Rickard was a moron under great stress. That was the reason.

[Modesty Lannister]

Rickard was a moron under great stress. That was the reason.

No. That is your unsubstantiated opinion. I stated what I wanted on the previous page.

[HexMachina]

Quit true. However I believe that if Robb had stayed at WF, because lets face it Ned was a dead man once he got into those Cells, the Northmen wouldn't had started to go to war on their own.

Ned's death wasn't really inevitable once he was in the Black Cells. It came as a complete shock to most people in King's Landing, because nobody realised how unpredictable Joffrey would be when he was given power. It certainly shocked Cersei, Tywin and even Varys. So it's hardly surprising that Robb and the other Northern Lords would expect him to survive.
  

The Riverlands were not the North. I believe that Robb had good intentions but you know the saying as the saying goes the way to hell is paved with good intentions.
 


Oh c'mon! Do you really believed that he had a chance to win?  :lmao:

Tywin obviously thought he had a chance of winning, since he decided to resort to "underhand" tactics to end his campaign.

[David Selig]

No. That is your unsubstantiated opinion. I stated what I wanted on the previous page.

Yes, you came up with an extremely far fetched idea as the reason for his behaviour. My explanation is way more likely and fits much better with what we see in the books. 

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Ned's death wasn't really inevitable once he was in the Black Cells. It came as a complete shock to most people in King's Landing, because nobody realised how unpredictable Joffrey would be when he was given power. It certainly shocked Cersei, Tywin and even Varys. So it's hardly surprising that Robb and the other Northern Lords would expect him to survive.

I think that it was obvious from the moment he was arrested he was a dead man. Which is why I find his quote “My father went south once, to answer the summons of a king. He never came home again.” quite ironic.

Tywin obviously thought he had a chance of winning, since he decided to resort to "underhand" tactics to end his campaign.

Could won some battles sure but the war? His house was under attack, the Lannisters had Tyrells and he had no one but the Riverlanders.

[Modesty Lannister]

Yes, you came up with an extremely far fetched idea as the reason for his behaviour. My explanation is way more likely and fits much better with what we see in the books. 

You are mixing unsubstantiated statements with explanations. You cannot refute a word of my theory, which is far from being far fetched. And all you see in the books is what Catelyn thought. It is boring to debate with people who cannot go beyond bias POVs and actually connect the dots of various plots.

[Tijgy]

The wiki says "House Stark entered the war on behalf of House Tully": 

 

A few quotes why they chose to go the war (the North) in GoT:

• Someone had to go, to hold the Neck and help the Tullys against the Lannisters, ...; and if their father were truly a prisoner, that could mean his death for a certainty; (Bran's thoughts)
• The Lannisters would come come from the south when they came (Cat's thoughts) (BTW Grey Wind is so cute in that chapter, just had to mention this)
• "Winterfell is safe. We'll shove our swords up Tywin Lannister's bunghole soon enough, begging your pardons, and it's on to the Red Keep to free Ned" (Greatjon of couse, who else? ;-) )
•  Then Robb tells about what is happening in the RIverlands or what he believes happened: "Lord Tywin was bringing a second Lannister army around from the south (...) Father must have know that, because he sent some men to oppose them, under the king's own banner. (??? Robb, Robb, it think you got the facts here entirely wrong, no?) Then he starts to tell about lord Deric and the fact the menn of Winterfell died  :rolleyes: "You mean to meet him here?" Robb explains further : "If he comes so far, but no one thnks he will (...) If the Lannisters come up the Neck, the crannogmen will attack them... He'll stay close to the Trident, they believe taking the castles of the river lords one by one, untill RR stands alone. We need to march south to meet him". Is that wise?..." "... our food and supplies are running low..."
• She was hearing the lords bannermen speaking with her son's voice, she realized.

If I actually analyze it correctly the main reason to raise the banners was to defend the North and according to them (the bannermen) the best way to do that was attacking the Lannisters? Another reason was also to defend the Tullys, but when I reread it (quickly) that fact was less important than protecting the North?

 

Except for that part on freeing Ned by Greatjon, they speak of Ned's freedom more as a hoped result of their victory against the Lannisters.

 

This analysis only refers of course at the reason why the North entered the war and not why they kept fighting  

[David Selig]

You are mixing unsubstantiated statements with explanations. You cannot refute a word of my theory, which is far from being far fetched. And all you see in the books is what Catelyn thought.

Sure, it's not far-fetched at all. :cool4:

 

How come nobody in fandom except you believes it in then?

 

 

It is boring to debate with people who cannot go beyond bias POVs and actually connect the dots of various plots.

Thankfully we have geniuses like you to enlighten us peasants. Keep up the good work.

[Ramsay Gimp]

Not enough peeople putting themselves in Rickard's shoes, IMO.

 

At that point in ASOS it was clear that Robb was going to lose the war, which means Rickard's sons sacrificed their lives for nothing. And the woman who released their killer suffered no punishment. What father wouldn't want to make sure the Lannisters at least suffered losses of their own, after everything they had done?

[Tijgy]

I must admit I think irrational is a must better word than unreasonable in this discussion? But my mother language is not English, so...

[Ramsay Gimp]

Not enough peeople putting themselves in Rickard's shoes, IMO.

 

At that point in ASOS it was clear that Robb was going to lose the war, which means Rickard's sons sacrificed their lives for nothing. And the woman who released their killer suffered no punishment. What father wouldn't want to make sure the Lannisters at least suffered losses of their own, after everything they had done?