Do the Mountain Clans Abandon Stannis?

[Sullen]

 

On the contrary, it's extremely sensible. Why waste your time on a drunken fool when it's not going to make any difference? The fact that even Jon Arryn was reluctant to bring it up with Robert says it all. It's definitely not treason in any case. Robert by all accounts gave Stannis no reason to trust him.

 

Oh it is sensible, but it's not dutiful, it's even treason if you have reason to believe his life is in danger, which it very well was.

 

Once Jon Arryn sensed danger, he tried to tell Robert, so that argument goes in the dumps as well.

[Ser Eric]

I wonder how many people here would go to their brothers who very openly dislike them and has the power to arrest them to tell them "your wife is a whore and your children are her brother's", specially after the father in law provides pretty much the money in the relationship.

 

You add in the fact that the brother in question is something of a drunk and has pretty much ignored all your inputs so far and you see the scale of it.

[Truly Just Man]

 

He didn't do anything, and had someone on his side telling him he would be be king, which requires his liege and brother to die.

 

It doesn't get simpler than that, mate. I know you like Stannis, but this is simply being obtuse.

No proof then, I assume.

It really doesn't get simpler. I know you don't like Stannis, but this is simply being obtuse.

 

You see? Can't say I'm wrong here, can you?

[Light a wight tonight]

If, or let's say when the northern mountain clans find out that "Arya" or Jeyne Poole is a fake, do they abandon Stannis? They no longer have any reason to fight for him so what would be keeping them around?

 

And what would this mean for his eventual battle at Winterfell? 

Whether they find out that "Arya" is in reality Jeyne Pool or not, she's no longer in Winterfell. Their loyalty is to the Starks, and it's common knowledge that Bran and Rickon are alive. The tribes will support Stannis against the Boltons. They may abandon him after Roose and Ramsay are dealt with but not before.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

 

You add in the fact that the brother in question is something of a drunk and has pretty much ignored all your inputs so far and you see the scale of it.

 

And also the small little detail that this brand new information would make them their brothers' one only heir.

[Fat Mac]

I wonder how many people here would go to their brothers who very openly dislike them and has the power to arrest them to tell them "your wife is a whore and your children are her brother's", specially after the father in law provides pretty much the money in the relationship.

 

This says it all, really.

 

Add that to Stannis potentially facing consequences for when Robert doesn't believe him, and Cersei now officially knows that Stannis knows about her and Jaime.

[Barty]

I wonder how many people here would go to their brothers who very openly dislike them and has the power to arrest them to tell them "your wife is a whore and your children are her brother's", specially after the father in law provides pretty much the money in the relationship.

If i believe that wife is going to kill my brother I would. Or I would try to find proof. Or I would help the one decent guy I know who is powerful enough to stand up to the father in law and who the brother believes. 

 

I'll tell you what I wouldnt do. Sit around and wait for my brother to die - no matter what. One does not sit around and wait for family to die. 

[Stannis broatheon]

 
1. Stannis doesn't have the book.
2. Even if it will probably fail, it's his duty to do so. Shirking your duty because you're afraid it might work against you is treason, pure and simple.

His duty was to protect his brother, if he tell him about Cercei he would expose him to a greater danger.

[Sullen]

No proof then, I assume.

It really doesn't get simpler. I know you don't like Stannis, but this is simply being obtuse.

 

You see? Can't say I'm wrong here, can you?

 

It is evidence, though. What do you think Melisandre told him?

 

And the assumption that I don't like Stannis is simply false. I don't like Stannis-the-Mannis(tm) but I think Stannis Baratheon is a wonderfully crafted character, insecurities, desires, and all.

 

He is not the person his fans make him to be though.

[Ser Pounce FTW]

 

It's not though, we know Stannis is with a witch who can see the future, and who constantly tells him he will be king, which requires Robert to die. That alone is enough to judge his inaction as treason.

 

No, the text doesn't support him considering being king until after Robert dies. Actually, it shows he doesn't do anything until Robert dies. And even after that happens, it seems he did not act until Renly had already gathered his forces and made his intentions to win the throne known. Stannis is very aware that Renly must die if he is ever going to get Renly's forces. Not just Stannis but everyone in his camp realizes it and except for Cressen and Davos, they're all fine with it.

 

“Those swords are sworn to Renly. They love my charming young brother, as they once loved Robert . . . and as they have never loved me.”

 

“Yes,” she answered, “but if Renly should die . . .”

 

Stannis looked at his lady with narrowed eyes, until Cressen could not hold his tongue.

 

“It is not to be thought. Your Grace, whatever follies Renly has committed—”

 

“Follies? I call them treasons.” Stannis turned back to his wife. “My brother is young and strong, and he has a vast host around him, and these rainbow knights of his.”

 

“Melisandre has gazed into the flames, and seen him dead.”

 

Cressen was horrorstruck.

 

“Fratricide . . . my lord, this is evil, unthinkable . . . please, listen to me.”

 

Lady Selyse gave him a measured look. “And what will you tell him, Maester? How he might win half a kingdom if he goes to the Starks on his knees and sells our daughter to Lysa Arryn?”

 

“I have heard your counsel, Cressen,” Lord Stannis said. “Now I will hear hers. You are dismissed.”

 

Stannis knows some harm will come to Renly and he's fine with it because he wants Renly's army. Melisandre has already guaranteed that he will gain all he needs from his brother's death and condones that. Cressen calling it fraticide and no one contradicting him is really telling here. He needs Renly to die but he genuinely does not seem to want Robert's death. 

 

 

A Stark lost Winterfell, if that counts for something. 

 

Yes, Bran Stark, a 9 year old boy.

 

 

Returning to the OP, the Northmen are not loyal to Stannis and would abandon him, if it's in their best interests. They are loyal to the Starks. They want the Boltons gone and they want to reinstall a Stark in Winterfell. I also think the North will try to maintain their independence when all is said and done and that's not a new concept for them. If Bran were to return to Winterfell, he would probably bend the knee but I really doubt Rickon would and I think he'll be the one to become the next Lord of Winterfell.

[Sullen]

His duty was to protect his brother, if he tell him about Cercei he would expose him to a greater danger.

 

Simply by Stannis knowing, Robert is exposed to a great danger.

 

Putting the suspicions of the incest in clear light makes Robert's assassination impossible without look extremely suspicious.

[Ser Eric]

 

Oh it is sensible, but it's not dutiful, it's even treason if you have reason to believe his life is in danger, which it very well was.

 

Once Jon Arryn sensed danger, he tried to tell Robert, so that argument goes in the dumps as well.

On his fucking death bed and he died so no it doesn't.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Whether they find out that "Arya" is in reality Jeyne Pool or not, she's no longer in Winterfell. Their loyalty is to the Starks, and it's common knowledge that Bran and Rickon are alive. The tribes will support Stannis against the Boltons. They may abandon him after Roose and Ramsay are dealt with but not before.

 

I think that's one of the fairest arguments. They might simply decided they fought for him, they put a Stark back on place, and that's it. But to expect them to double cross Stannis...? Nah.

 

If Rickon (or his regent), Bran, Jon or any Stark says "Stannis Baratheon has helped us, let's follow and support him", they would obey, though.

[Stannis broatheon]

 
It is evidence, though. What do you think Melisandre told him?
 
And the assumption that I don't like Stannis is simply false. I don't like Stannis-the-Mannis(tm) but I think Stannis Baratheon is a wonderfully crafted character, insecurities, desires, and all.
 
He is not the person his fans make him to be though.

You have no evidence. Do you realise that we have Mel's PoV and she does not mention this?

[Fat Mac]

On his fucking death bed and he died so no it doesn't.

 

He also made sure to be as cryptic as possible, apparently.

[Barty]

His duty was to protect his brother, if he tell him about Cercei he would expose him to a greater danger.

So the answer is sitting around and waiting for Robert to die to start a war?? Yes, he would risk his life if he remained at KL. But Robert was his King, his liege lord. Stannis is supposed to risk his life, even give his life to save Robert's. He is sworn to do so. He instead sat back and waited for Robert to die. 

[Sullen]

You have no evidence. Do you realise that we have Mel's PoV and she does not mention this?

 

We have Mel and Davos's PoV's, and they don't mention Stannis gathering forces while Robert is still alive as well.

 

And again, I ask you, what do you think she told Stannis all those months on Dragonstone while Robert was still alive?

 

 

On his fucking death bed and he died so no it doesn't.

 

And he thought the timing was right on his deathbed, it backs up Stannis as well if Stannis decides to share his suspicions with Robert.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

If i believe that wife is going to kill my brother I would. Or I would try to find proof. Or I would help the one decent guy I know who is powerful enough to stand up to the father in law and who the brother believes. 

 

I'll tell you what I wouldnt do. Sit around and wait for my brother to die - no matter what. One does not sit around and wait for family to die. 

 

Do you realise that Cersei's plan to kill Robert worked because plot wanted her to be lucky, right? Cersei couldn't just poison him because killing the King right there would point every finger at her. That's why she needed it to be an accident.

 

Robert was not in danger. He died because he was an irresponsible idiot. Stannis was in more danger than Robert had he had stayed in KL. Go and tell Robert the true would mean him being arrested, probably killed, and the truth had died there.

 

Honestly, I don't get why people believe Stannis should be so idiot to go and pretty much offer the Lannisters his own neck. He had no proof of what he said, that's why he allied with Arryn and Arryn died. He was next. If they killed the man Robert loved as a father, and then they killed the man he loved as a brother, why wouldn't they got killed the guy who was indeed his brother but he never cared for? :dunno:

[Stannis broatheon]

 
We have Mel and Davos's PoV's, and they don't mention Stannis gathering forces while Robert is still alive as well.
 
And again, I ask you, what do you think she told Stannis all those months on Dragonstone while Robert was still alive?
 
 
 
And he thought the timing was right on his deathbed, it backs up Stannis as well if Stannis decides to share his suspicions with Robert.

I never said that my theory is legit, I was just showing you that it was as legit as yours.

[Ser Eric]

 

And again, I ask you, what do you think she told Stannis all those months on Dragonstone while Robert was still alive?

 

 

 

Why don't you tell us? You seem to be quite an expert on things not in the book. Fanfiction seems to be your thing.

 

 

 

And he thought the timing was right on his deathbed, it backs up Stannis as well if Stannis decides to share his suspicions with Robert.

 

No. He had no other choice but to do it or he would have died. The fact that he said nothing to Robert all that while even when he had the book says it all. If Jon Arryyn, a father figure to Robert was hesitant to bring it up then Stannis was 100% right in his cautius approach.