Do the Mountain Clans Abandon Stannis?

[BlueBear5]

That's two Barty.  Well done haha.

 

I don't see why saying that Ned was one of the good battle commanders of his time takes Stannis down in any way.  I absolutely concede that Robb neither participated in nor won anywhere near the amount of battle Stannis did.  He was a teenager.  I claim that where battle were concerned, he handled himself very well.  He picked allies poorly and listened to the wrong council and had a confusingly strict view of honor.

 

I like Stannis.  I very strongly believe he is going to live up to his reputation in WoW in the battle of Winerfell and am eagerly awaiting it.

[Ser Eric]

 

Robb lost the war as did Stannis. Is Stannis on the Iron Throne? Stannis decisions to abandon one brother and kill another resulted in his defeat at King's Landing. 

 

According to the Pink Letter (unverified), Stannis is dead. FACT.

 

Hilarious.

 

Stannis is still alive, so he obviously hasn't lost. Appalling logic.

 

The Pink letter is obviously not true. 
 

[Barty]

 

 

For a start, nowhere does he say there he trusts Ned. Just that he was honorable and honest. That's completely different from trusting that secret to him given his daughter was bethrothed to Joffrey.

 

Second, that quote is well after the fact.
 

So he does not trust a man he knows to be honorable and honest?? I wonder what kind of men Stannis does trust.

 

As for the betrothal - that is a moot point. Ned betrothed his daughter to Joffrey believeing Joff was the son of Robert. He would break that betrothal in an instant (and actually did) when he finds out the truth

[Stannis broatheon]

Really?? remind me when Stannis has managed to defeat a well armed, well armored force which was entrenched and outnumbered him 3-1. 
Greatest Lannister defeat that Edmure himself calls a bloody nose?? You are comparing that to the Whispering Wood when Jaime Lannister was taken?? or the Battle of the Camps where 10k lannister soldiers died or Oxcross where another 10k Lannister men died and the west was left completely open to Robb??

Robbwon becuase the Lannister were sieging River run and they were divided in 3 different group unorganized. If you say that the wilding defeat os not a big deal because he took the wildings by surprised, th8s very same battle is worthless from your PoV. The other victories that you named took the Lannisters by surprise and against commanders not as good as Tywin, simething that Edmure did and Robb couldn't.None are as good as the defeat of the IB fleet

[Barty]

That's two Barty.  Well done haha.

 

I don't see why saying that Ned was one of the good battle commanders of his time takes Stannis down in any way.  I absolutely concede that Robb neither participated in nor won anywhere near the amount of battle Stannis did.  He was a teenager.  I claim that where battle were concerned, he handled himself very well.  He picked allies poorly and listened to the wrong council and had a confusingly strict view of honor.

 

I like Stannis.  I very strongly believe he is going to live up to his reputation in WoW in the battle of Winerfell and am eagerly awaiting it.

Thanks. And I agree with you - Stannis was in no way an idiot general. Tywin feared him and his track record does show him to be a good commander. But Stannis has never really played the GoT till now. Robb did - he tried forming alliances, made marriage pacts etc. He failed because his opponent was LF and Tywin Lannister. Stannis depended on military might to win the war - he failed. He wants to stay clear of the GoT but soon he will have no choice but to play it since his military strength is too low. I really wonder if his attempts will turn better fruit than Robb's. He might soon end up the same way Robb did if GNC is true. 

[Winter's Cold]

 

Hilarious.

 

Stannis is still alive, so he obviously hasn't lost. Appalling logic.

 

The Pink letter is obviously not true. 
 

 

Stannis lost the war after Blackwater. 

 

If you say so.

[Barty]

Robbwon becuase the Lannister were sieging River run and they were divided in 3 different group unorganized. If you say that the wilding defeat os not a big deal because he took the wildings by surprised, th8s very same battle is worthless from your PoV. The other victories that you named took the Lannisters by surprise and against commanders not as good as Tywin, simething that Edmure did and Robb couldn't.None are as good as the defeat of the IB fleet

Taking Lannisters by surprise is part of the reason Robb is good. 

Stannis got taken by surprise at the Blackwater - the other way round. The wildling defeat is not a big deal because the wildlings themselves are not a cohesive army. They have children and women and no weapons or armor and no discipline in their army. I actually give credit to Stannis to manage to take the wildlings by surprise in their own territory. But tbh according to any experienced Ranger even the 300 men the Old bear had could carve through the wildling army like a hot knife through butter

 

Stannis himself admits he can only use the wildlings as cannon fodder

 

 

As for the wildling fighting ability. This is what Smallwood had to say when he found out Wildlings had a massive army and they had only 200.

 

“The numbers would be greatly against us,” Ser Ottyn had objected. “Craster said he was gathering a great host. Many thousands. Without Qhorin, we are only two hundred.”

“Send two hundred wolves against ten thousand sheep, ser, and see what happens,” said Smallwood confidently.

[HappilyEverAfter]

Victarion is described as one of the best commanders of westeros even if he is dumb.
Stannis army was 2000 strong, Mance was 45k-50k strong to say the least. Is an impressive victory like it or not. Ned did not won the battle of Bells or the Trident single handely and the trident was won by Robert killing Rhaegar, not by Ned's brilliance. And Ned left the siege without resistance, he just came there and the Tyrells yield.We could say that Ned's greatest victory as a commander was the battle of the Bells.

Where does it say that Victarion is one of the best commanders in Westeros? Because common sense dictates that if you're dumb, you're a dumb battle commander.

Mance's army (of fighting men, not little kids) was 30,000 strong with 100 000 people total. Armed with fur and bone spears, completely unorganised and taken by surprise. Yet Stannis only killed 1000 and captured another 1000, of the 100,000 wildlings, because the wildlings were disorganised and fled.

Ned was one of the principal commanders in the Battle of the Trident, commanding a large portion of the army. Robert himself said Ned won the Battle of the Bells. And yes, Mace yielded, but he yielded to Ned, not Stannis, which says something about Ned's reputation.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

This is why I wasn't posting around. My doctors recommended me to not have stress.
At least is funny to read people requiring textual evidence of the subtext from the books or thinking that the fake hints of the author are "facts". lol.

Sometimes I feel that a reading comprehension test should be required before posting nonsense.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Stannis lost the war after Blackwater.

Yes. So? He's now fighting a new war with new interests, one he has better chances to be successful. :dunno:

Honestly, I cannot imagine the Northeners saying "hey, this Stannis guy is offering us to put back the Starks in Winterfell, remove the Boltons, defeat the Others, solve the Wildlings problems... but we will say not because he lost Blackwater". LOL.

[Barty]

Yes. So? He's now fighting a new war with new interests, one he has better chances to be successful. :dunno:

Honestly, I cannot imagine the Northeners saying "hey, this Stannis guy is offering us to put back the Starks in Winterfell, remove the Boltons, defeat the Others, solve the Wildlings problems... but we will say not because he lost Blackwater". LOL.

Obviously they are not abandoning Stannis for that.

They are abandoning him because the same Stannis guy is also demanding them to give up their Independence. The Independence they all lost a King and blood for. And now its within their grasp - the South is in shambles. Appoint a new King in the North and the IT cant do shit. Stannis also wants the North to march down south again - he wants his throne. The Northerners are probably not so eager for that. They all also swore an oath to Robb and Robb has an heir. If the Stark line was truly dead then the Northerners would turn to Stannis but right now I feel the northerners are a bit rebellious. 

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Can you link the textual evidence for that? I only remember him trying to evacuate his family.

Evacuating = Leaving. :rolleyes: Jeeeesus.

Honestly, your completely disregard or poor knowledge of the social conducts of the characters from these books is astonishing. You have zero idea of how and why these people act and what drives them.

Stannis has gone to the North to fight the Others, the one true danger. Whatever his initial reasons were, he's now realised that's the important thing. He knows that, by eliminating that danger, he will be recognised as a King who cares, whether he really cares or not. He's giving in order to receive: that's the social contract they're working with.

For that, he needs the North support. He's counting on getting them by giving them things they wanted. First, a Stark heir, a son of Ned Stark, the only one surviving as far as they know: Jon. This proves he has no problem with having the Starks back in Winterfell and have them ruling under his own rule. This is a silent agreement of such Stark accepting him as King and bending the knee, which he reasonable expects to happen. The Starks have before bent the knee when it has been convenient: first to Aegon, then to Robert. The only time they spoke about independence was when the King cut Ned Stark's head. Considering Winter is really coming, they would be idiots to be wanting a war.

Things like honour and loyalty are important for the men and women in Westeros society, both in North and South. If Stannis puts back the Starks in Winterfell and the Northmen stab him on the back, they wouldn't be honourable. They wouldn't be different from the Freys. You know why they hate the Freys? Because they betrayed their guests. Unlike the Freys, Stannis hasn't directly attacked them or hurt their families. Men like Manderly have zero motivations to attack them, but to gain something from Stannis, which is what he's doing. He knows he cannot do it alone, nor can the North alone. The Lannisters have put the Boltons in charge, as they expected put Tyrion as Liege. Stannis wants to get rid of the Lannisters. They have a common enemy. They will work together because it's logical.

[The Drunkard]

The idea that the True Northmen have masterminded a plot to play Roose and Stannis against each other before ousting the both of them, securing the north and reviving their kingdom is fanwank, not to mention self-destructive. Stannis has a thousand southern veterens who have faced worse than anyone in the north, he's far and away the best commander they have (e.g. his plan at the crofters village will win the war against the Boltons, not Hugo's bravado), and his connection to the Iron Bank allows him to keep the people fed and adequately prepare the kingdom for the Others (not that it would necessarily mean all that much to the northern rulers, given the complete lack of assistance they gave to the NW).

 

Stannis army was smaller than the Northmen army, and this time the wildings were netter organized and had the aid of Mammoths and gigants.Stannis army was like 1500 men strong

Less, actually. He had thirteen hundred men on Dragonstone, he would've left a garrison there to guard it after sailing north, and he left at least 50 men with his family and Davos at Eastwatch. Sam observes that there were around 1000 at Castle Black after the battle and no one makes mention of his losses being considerable, so I reckon he had between 1000 and 1100 men during the battle. The 1500 number comes from Davos, but Stannis would know better.

[Stannis broatheon]

Obviously they are not abandoning Stannis for that.
They are abandoning him because the same Stannis guy is also demanding them to give up their Independence. The Independence they all lost a King and blood for. And now its within their grasp - the South is in shambles. Appoint a new King in the North and the IT cant do shit. Stannis also wants the North to march down south again - he wants his throne. The Northerners are probably not so eager for that. They all also swore an oath to Robb and Robb has an heir. If the Stark line was truly dead then the Northerners would turn to Stannis but right now I feel the northerners are a bit rebellious. 

As far as i know they have not abandon him.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Obviously they are not abandoning Stannis for that.
They are abandoning him because the same Stannis guy is also demanding them to give up their Independence. The Independence they all lost a King and blood for. And now its within their grasp - the South is in shambles. Appoint a new King in the North and the IT cant do shit. Stannis also wants the North to march down south again - he wants his throne. The Northerners are probably not so eager for that. They all also swore an oath to Robb and Robb has an heir. If the Stark line was truly dead then the Northerners would turn to Stannis but right now I feel the northerners are a bit rebellious.

Read above. The only time they talked about independence was after the Crown murdered their liege, insulting them. They are ok. with bending the knee and obeying a fair King. They did with Aegon, they did when Ned supported Robert as King. If Jon, Sansa, Rickon, Arya or whoever Stark they get bends the knee for Stannis, they would be ok.

[Sullen]

1.We dont know if Stannis killed Renly, but if he did his brother was planning to the same thing.He ran awayfrom kings landing to plan his next move, and not risking his life,because if he dies he is useless.

 

Renly was planning for Stannis to join him before he attacked him at Storm's End, Stannis was planning Renly's death while still on Dragonstone, they were not planning the same thing.

 

Also, Stannis's next move was to wait for Robert to die so that he could crown himself, that's both cowardly, and high treason.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

The idea that the True Northmen have masterminded a plot to play Roose and Stannis against each other before ousting the both of them, securing the north and reviving their kingdom is fanwank, not to mention self-destructive.

Aye.

The only "conspiracy" existing is them deceiving the Boltons and joining Stannis, which the text is everything but obvious on pointing out.

Also, all of this talk of independence is like people saying that some female characters are feminists or that some will bring democracy to Westeros. Do these characters even know those words and concepts exist? :lol:

[Ser Pounce FTW]

Obviously they are not abandoning Stannis for that.

They are abandoning him because the same Stannis guy is also demanding them to give up their Independence. The Independence they all lost a King and blood for. And now its within their grasp - the South is in shambles. Appoint a new King in the North and the IT cant do shit. Stannis also wants the North to march down south again - he wants his throne. The Northerners are probably not so eager for that. They all also swore an oath to Robb and Robb has an heir. If the Stark line was truly dead then the Northerners would turn to Stannis but right now I feel the northerners are a bit rebellious. 

 

Great post!

 

 

Evacuating = Leaving. :rolleyes: Jeeeesus.

 

He was only sending his daughters home. He fully intended to remain in KL and do his duty and recognized how dangerous that was so he wanted his daughters back in Winterfell.

 

"The Wind Witch sails on the evening tide. Have you chosen the escort?"

 

"Ten men, with Porther in command."

 

"Twenty, and you will command," Ned said. Porther was a brave man, but headstrong. He wanted someone more solid and sensible to keep watch over his daughters.

 

"As you wish, m'lord," Tom said. "Can't say I'll be sad to see the back of this place. I miss the wife."

 

"You will pass near Dragonstone when you turn north. I need you to deliver a letter for me."

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Great post!
 
 
 
He was only sending his daughters home. He fully intended to remain in KL and do his duty and recognized how dangerous that was so he wanted his daughters back in Winterfell.
 

"The Wind Witch sails on the evening tide. Have you chosen the escort?"

"Ten men, with Porther in command."

"Twenty, and you will command," Ned said. Porther was a brave man, but headstrong. He wanted someone more solid and sensible to keep watch over his daughters.

"As you wish, m'lord," Tom said. "Can't say I'll be sad to see the back of this place. I miss the wife."

"You will pass near Dragonstone when you turn north. I need you to deliver a letter for me."

I remember he was also thinking on visiting Stannis in Dragonstone. I'll have to check but I don't have books at hand.

[Stannis broatheon]

 
Renly was planning for Stannis to join him before he attacked him at Storm's End, Stannis was planning Renly's death while still on Dragonstone, they were not planning the same thing.
 
Also, Stannis's next move was to wait for Robert to die so that he could crown himself, that's both cowardly, and high treason.

How do you know his plan with out his PoV? Please give me some evidence not a baseless argument around how things turn out.