Bakker XXXVIII: Where The Posters Are Damned

[Darth Richard II]

I have several books on the crusades that have *gasp* females in them. That argument is complete shit.

Is someone actually arguing for Serwe as proif Bakkers is non mysgonystic?

[Chaircat Meow]

I have several books on the crusades that have *gasp* females in them. That argument is complete shit.

Is someone actually arguing for Serwe as proif Bakkers is non mysgonystic?

Name me a female noblewoman who played a prominent role in the First Crusade then.

[Kalnestk Oblast]

The problem comes from the issue where the only way Bakker can write about women is as a victim, and not as people.

GRRM has people who are victimized, often far more than serwe - but it isn't who they are.

But you know all this. This was talked through by far better people than me 8 years ago. Who are you wanting to argue with?

[Kalnestk Oblast]

And kuenjato, I will grant you that it's not as bad the poster in that link referring to esmi as a cum dumpster.

I don't think it's particularly well written as many people didn't even realize that it happened.

[Darth Richard II]

Nah, fuck this. I'm out.

[Chaircat Meow]

Nah, fuck this. I'm out.

If you have books it is easy. You could try leafing through an index of a standard work, like Runciman's The First Crusade. In Runciman's account the only lady to play any active role in the narrative is Adela, wife of Stephen of Blois, who, according to Runciman, persuaded/bullied her husband into taking up the cross (but who did not go east herself).

[Larry of the Lake]

The best part about the Cnauir / Conphas thing is when Conphas sneaks off and Cnauir rushes to create the labyrinth inside Joktha by knocking down walls, and he gives that speech about how they're all going to die bathing in Nansur blood, and then just goes berserk.  And how much he loves the skinspy that mimics Serwe.  So fucked up.

[Michael Seswatha Jordan]

The best part about the Cnauir / Conphas thing is when Conphas sneaks off and Cnauir rushes to create the labyrinth inside Joktha by knocking down walls, and he gives that speech about how they're all going to die bathing in Nansur blood, and then just goes berserk.  And how much he loves the skinspy that mimics Serwe.  So fucked up.

Yea, the whole Cnaüir/Serwe SS love affair was just....out there. Especially that scene when they're running to Kyudea. And SS Serwe opens her true face and Cnaüir dives in, urrrrgghhhhh, gives me shivers.

[kuenjato]

And kuenjato, I will grant you that it's not as bad the poster in that link referring to esmi as a cum dumpster.

I don't think it's particularly well written as many people didn't even realize that it happened.

As we've seen many times, most recently in the Puppygate fiasco, troglodytes congregate in any genre.

I do agree that one of Bakker's weaknesses is that virtually all women in the series are constructed as victims, with the exception of Serwa and the Yatwer vessel (and even the second assumes victimhood in order to dominate). Although I don't totally buy into the argument that women had tons of agency and opportunity in the ME -- it was more a matter of context, time, place and usually (though not always) born-into privilege for those special exceptions -- there were exceptions, to which Earwa either lacks or Bakker choses not to mention.

Spellcheck tries to transform Earwa into Earwax. Hilarious.

[Callan S.]

fairly obvious by now that WLW is sent to assist AK. duh?


but we should expect compensatory gods to act one way vis-à-vis opponents, as contrasted to antagonistic (or whatever the second type is) and to the third type (can't evenrecall).

Assisting him before killing him? Could be. But weve seen the notched blade that cracks against a dunyain parry, and as unexpectedly, kills Kellhus. That's already been spoilered by the book.

[Callan S.]

I'd buy a Breaker of Horses and Men shirt. Where I send the check to?

Sounds like a good novelty mug motto, though a bit in-jokey

 

"Beaker of horses and men"

[Callan S.]

As we've seen many times, most recently in the Puppygate fiasco, troglodytes congregate in any genre.

I do agree that one of Bakker's weaknesses is that virtually all women in the series are constructed as victims, with the exception of Serwa and the Yatwer vessel (and even the second assumes victimhood in order to dominate). Although I don't totally buy into the argument that women had tons of agency and opportunity in the ME

Some of the arguments seem to act as if they had more agency back in the middle ages! Ah, the good old days!

[all swedes are racist]

"It's a black semen thing -- you wouldn't understand"

[The Marquis de Leech]

No, they got them for a whole lot of other reasons - but very little had to do with needing them in the workforce. Especially considering that industrialization was by 1918 pretty long in the tooth, having gone on for almost 100 years at that point. 

 

Heck, France gave women the right to vote in 1944. Switzerland in 1971! I'm going to go out on a limb and state that France was pretty well modernized by that time, as was Switzerland. Sweden gave women the right in 1718, by comparison - which again had nothing to do with industrialization or modernization (though to be fair, it was taken away about 60 years later). 

 

 

Without industrialisation, you're not going to have urban pressure for representation. Without the urban pressure for representation, you're not going to have associated pressure for female voting.

 

It's simply a case of taking decades to make a difference. Britain's 1832 Reform Act started the process of the British middle class being able to vote, and was built on throughout the nineteenth century. Women were one stage (normally the last one) in that process. 

[Kalnestk Oblast]

And that might be a good counter argument if the argument was that it was because of industrialization causing greater urban density that made it easier.

Except that's not bakkers argument. His argument is that women got the vote because industry needed them as workers. It was a pragmatic decision. Which is just not true.

[Castel]

In the last thread Arakan asked.why the Hundred aren't fighting the consult, but instead send the WLW after Kellhus. I'd guess it has to do with the fact that the WLW was created by the Yatwer cult begging Yatwer to kill Kellhus. Are any other cults begging their god to kill the Consult? I doubt it.

 

 

Sorry but this was not my main point. At all.
And your line of reasoning rather enforces my position which was that the "gods" lack so much awareness to be called "gods" in any meaningful way.

The Fanim have the right of it. Those 100 are maybe the most powerful extra-dimensional beings but gods they ain't.

 

I believe Arakan's point is that it doesn't make sense for the Gods to see the Consult and not act. 

 

Well...that's the thing, they see the Consult. They don't care. Why should they? They're not blind to the Consult, they're blind to the No-God and, more importantly, blind to their blindness. As such, they construct the second best narrative that doesn't involve the No-God. 

 

This is nothing new. This sort of blindness and narrative building shows up a lot in Bakker's books, especially Neuropath. If Kellhus or Bland Neuropath Guy or Rape Alien Construct #341 fuck with your head you're inside the delusion. It's akin to asking why the people that Kellhus is fucking with don't fight back, or why Xinemus believes that he was the one fucking with Akka and not the Scarlet Spires.

 

It's no more strange than you not taking the claim that your arm is a phantom limb seriously. 

 

Kellhus on the other hand, clearly exists in their sight and is clearly fucking with their interests. So he gets to die. 

 

These are probably not the first gods to be stymied or fucked with. Dragonlance had entire pantheons slaughtered by gifted humans and their godhood isn't really in doubt. The Hundred seem to have done good for themselves.

 

As for the rest of Bakker's sins...good luck :P

[Arakan]

 
 
 
I believe Arakan's point is that it doesn't make sense for the Gods to see the Consult and not act. 
 
Well...that's the thing, they see the Consult. They don't care. Why should they? They're not blind to the Consult, they're blind to the No-God and, more importantly, blind to their blindness. As such, they construct the second best narrative that doesn't involve the No-God. 
 
This is nothing new. This sort of blindness and narrative building shows up a lot in Bakker's books, especially Neuropath. If Kellhus or Bland Neuropath Guy or Rape Alien Construct #341 fuck with your head you're inside the delusion. It's akin to asking why the people that Kellhus is fucking with don't fight back, or why Xinemus believes that he was the one fucking with Akka and not the Scarlet Spires.
 
It's no more strange than you not taking the claim that your arm is a phantom limb seriously. 
 
Kellhus on the other hand, clearly exists in their sight and is clearly fucking with their interests. So he gets to die. 
 
These are probably not the first gods to be stymied or fucked with. Dragonlance had entire pantheons slaughtered by gifted humans and their godhood isn't really in doubt. The Hundred seem to have done good for themselves.
 
As for the rest of Bakker's sins...good luck :P

Why should the gods care wrt the Consult? Well because the Consult plans to undermine the very power base (cycle of souls) of the so called gods ;). But they seemingly don't act against the consult but against Kellhus.

For whatever reason this might be, that weakness in awareness and makes it difficult for me to consider them as gods. Thus I said the Fanim are right and the gods are just the most powerful of the outside demons.

In principal I don't have a problem with gods that are petty, jealous and generally show character weaknesses of humans (like e.g. the Graeco-Roman gods). But that mere humans are less deceived than gods? I don't know...

One explanation would be that the Consult somehow could make themselves invisible to the gods (like the No-Gene made people invisible to Leto II in Dune).

I guess TUC will pressumably answer those questions.

[kuenjato]

Assisting him before killing him? Could be. But weve seen the notched blade that cracks against a dunyain parry, and as unexpectedly, kills Kellhus. That's already been spoilered by the book.

I don't have the book with me, but doesn't the WLW kill the "aspect emperor"? In other words, Kelly's name is not referenced. Which makes me wonder if some other has assumed that role (Fay, for example). Otherwise, it seems difficult to believe that the WLW is going to make the trek north and catch up with Kelly, or that Kelly will return to the Three Seas in his current form.

[Bolivar]

I stated recently what I really like about the series and why I continue to find entertainment out of them. The entertainment I get does not preclude them from being criticized. I don't really understand this argument; why can someone not like something AND criticize the parts they do not like?

You sound like Anita Sarkeesian!

[Kalnestk Oblast]

You sound like Anita Sarkeesian!

I know you meant to make that sound like a bad thing, but I think you'll find that it's not particularly effective as an insult.