Bubonicon update (no show spoilers/discussion)

[Annara Snow]

http://grrm.livejournal.com/440213.html?thread=22483861#t22483861
 
 
http://grrm.livejournal.com/440213.html?thread=22480789#t22480789

 

Well, duh. I don't think anyone thought that ALL the characters who die in the show will survive in the books. He said a number of them will survive, so basically he confirmed that part was right.

[aryagonnakill#2]

Thats very interesting. There really aren't that many people in that category.

[butterbumps!]

[mod]

 

I've already had to delete a ton of posts in here about characters who die in the show and not the books.    Any discussion involving the show (which includes referring to characters as having died in the show) belongs over in the show subforum.    Please refrain from discussing that facet of the twitter feed over here.  Thanks.

 

[/mod]

[Annara Snow]

Thats very interesting. There really aren't that many people in that category.

There will be more next season, no doubt.

The gist of it is that we shouldn't take a show death to mean anything for the books.

[Cashless Society]

I'd just like to know if he was talking about Blue with the dinosaur comment.

[TheHouseHB]

George's twist in the books that he thinks no one will see coming is Jon sitting on the iron throne at the end. He was at his computer when he said "I got an idea that no one else has come up with." 

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Discussion of the books future with show spoilers [url=http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/134980-bubonicon-discussion-all-books-spoilers/]here[/url]

[kissdbyfire]

 

Okay nut.  LOL.

 

I'm not  too thrilled with 'there is no system for magic' if that is really GRRM talking.  That's kind of bogus if you ask me, and I think it's always been assumed that there was a system and rules.

 

But that's the one thing he has said many times in the past! I'll be honest, I quite like it. :p

[kissdbyfire]

When GRRM says "there is no system to magic in Westeros", what does he mean by "system"?

 

We are told all Valyrian magic was based on blood and fire. We see the wizards of the Rhoyne doing water-based magic. We hear of stormsingers and aeromancers. We see a fire mage in Qarth doing tricks with fire, but we don't see him doing anything with wind, air, water, etc. The CotF call themselves Earth Singers.

 

There really does seem to be some sort of organization by elemental power. Is this a system, or not a system? Or does he just mean there is no set stuff users can do with their elemental power?

 

My take on it is that: 

1 - it's magic, not science under a different name

2 - there's no recipe; if you combine ingredients A, B, and C twice, you could get two different outcomes.

[Raving Stark the Mad]

 

But that's the one thing he has said many times in the past! I'll be honest, I quite like it. :P

I agree.  I think magic is better when it is inexplicable and mysterious, not systematized and numerated. 

[aryagonnakill#2]

The thing is sometimes GRRM says things that just don't ring true to what he has put in the books.  Bloodraven very much understands how to use the weirnet.  Quaithe seems to understand the glass candles, and Mel clearly understands shadowbabies.  These are all systems where you add a+b and get c every time.

 

Its like how he talks about not wanting the Others to be pure evil and that all his characters are grey.  Then he shows us death machines that practice necromancy and Gregor Clegane.

[Consigliere]

Maybe Martin's statement just means that he will not be going into detail on how blood, fire, water etc magic works, unlike other series where the 'mechanics' of the various magics are laid out. Like Dany's pyre scene, although some have tried, I don't think Martin intended for this to be a dragon hatching formula. It's just something that happened - "a miracle".

[Raving Stark the Mad]

The thing is sometimes GRRM says things that just don't ring true to what he has put in the books.  Bloodraven very much understands how to use the weirnet.  Quaithe seems to understand the glass candles, and Mel clearly understands shadowbabies.  These are all systems where you add a+b and get c every time.

 

Its like how he talks about not wanting the Others to be pure evil and that all his characters are grey.  Then he shows us death machines that practice necromancy and Gregor Clegane.

I think there is a very clear difference between knowing HOW to DO something, or use something, and understanding HOW IT WORKS/OPERATES. 

 

Almost everybody watches television.  Very few people can actually describe how a television works (especially the old ones, remember how they would make a smaller and smaller circle as the tube wound down?).  Same thing with a microwave, etc.  Now, we all KNOW there is a science and technology behind televisions and microwaves.  SOMEBODY knows HOW it works.  But I don't think that anybody in the books really KNOWS HOW magic works. 

 

Mel knows HOW to make a shadowbaby, but she doesn't understand HOW it actually happens, and we won't either.  Same thing goes for weirnets and glass candles.  Nobody knows HOW these things actually operate, they just know how to operate them. 

 

As for the difference between black, white, grey, and Gregor Clegane, I think people misunderstand what Martin means.  I have no doubt that Gregor Clegane is evil.  But I also have no doubt that somewhere, sometime, Gregor Clegane has probably done something good.  Maybe he is nice to dogs.  Maybe he gives to charity.  Maybe he provides good benefits for his marauders.  Maybe he is eco-friendly.  Maybe he is brave and loyal in the face of danger.   Maybe he never drinks to excess or eats too much or is lustful. 

 

The point is that he is probably not all evil, all the time, all of this life.  But in my opinion that does not matter, he is still evil.  That is the problem with "grey".  It really doesn't matter at some point.  At some point, people are either OK, or NOT OK.  There really is no middle ground, though people try to shy away from "good" and "evil".  What Martin stays away from is simplicity and caricature.  He leans towards complexity. 

 

Instead of thinking of a character's morality as being on a greyscale line, or a zero sum, people should probably start thinking of Martin's characters as having a "good" jar, and a "bad" jar.  Everytime they do a good or a bad deed, they put a stone in each jar.  You don't add them up to create a single number.  You can't take away the good things, and you can't take away the bad things.  And everybody has some stones in each jar, even psychos like Gregor Clegane. 

 

So throw away the greyscale and pick up your jars. 

[Mithras]

I agree.  I think magic is better when it is inexplicable and mysterious, not systematized and numerated. 

 

But there are some rules in magic already. Both Mel and the KM told that sorcery comes with great cost. Dalla defined sorcery as a sword without a hilt.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

They all BELIEVE how magic works. That doesn't mean they actually know.

 

Also, there must be some sort of control people can have over magic. We build dams but we cannot control the sea. We know how to make buildings that resist earthquakes but we cannot control those either.

[kissdbyfire]

Bloodraven, for instance, tells Bran he can't communicate through the weirnet, but we've seen Bran do it. 

 

Here's a couple of things Martin has said on the subject in the past.

 

He talks about it here.

 

- Someone asked how, as a 'gardener' style of writer, George manages to set and stick to the "rules" of his fantasy world without contradicting what has gone before. George answered that he doesn't have to worry about contradicting his magical system because he's deliberately limited the magic and intentionally tries to keep it magical and mysterious, that the essence of magic is that it must be "wondrous and unexplainable". He doesn't like what other authors have done, which is to treat magic like a different kind of science with its own set rules. He does admit keeping some details straight is hard, since he keeps a lot of it in his head, though that's supplemented with charts and computer files. 

 

 

And here:

 

Question 8 - Do you have rules worked out for magic?

Whole book is to his discretion as to how it works. He doesn't have a magic system specifically. Some authors do but too like D&D for him. He went back to Tolkien when he got into the book seriously. Thinks Tolkien is still the master. What you discover when you read Tolkien with eye to magic is there is very little magic. Gandalf is wizard - wise but he doesn't whisper a spell and slaughter an entire army. He thinks fantasy needs magic as a seasoning. Too much seasoning and you can overwelm the dish. Too much magic can ruin a fantasy. Magic has to be magic - something that violates law of nature. "Unknown" - published between the two World Wars writen by Campbell - a real rationalist with a particular brand of fantasy. Campbell treated magic as science. GRR enjoyed reading them but that approach to magic and the aproach in role playing games is...just science, not magic. Magic has to be more mysterious than that. He wants less Campbell and more Lovecraft. It has to be dark stuff we can't fully comprehend. Use it sparingly so it has impact.

[aryagonnakill#2]

But how much understanding do we have of anything?  I understand that gravity holds me onto the earth.  I understand that gravity is a result of mass, and that the more mass the stronger the gravitational force.  I understand that with enough mass you get a black hole where even light cannot escape.  I understand that this works even at the atomic level, and that there are other basic forces, even 1 that directly opposes gravity, but I will never understand why these forces exist, and it is my belief that no 1 ever will, even if they understand how these forces work much better than I do.

 

Likewise, Bloodraven understands how to use the Weirnet, and he understands how to identify other people that can use it.  He knows that Weirwoods live forever and that the cotf go into animals they skinchanged when they die, he has a very good understanding of how everything works, but just like us never understanding how everything came to be and why he will never understand how and why Weirwoods came to be, but that doesn't mean he does not fully understand how to harness their power.

[Raving Stark the Mad]

 

But there are some rules in magic already. Both Mel and the KM told that sorcery comes with great cost. Dalla defined sorcery as a sword without a hilt.

Those aren't rules.  They're pity sayings. 

 

I can say that being a parent comes with great cost, or that power is a sword without a hilt.  It's cute but doesn't tell you HOW it works. 

[Victarion Chainbreaker]

NOT EVERY DETAIL IS A CLUE MOST OF YOUR THEORIES ARE ERRONEOUS THEY ARE JUST WORDS 

Wow that's harsh, shutting down "most of your theories." I guess that's how George deals with crackpots, a far cry from how he responds to theories that are "very perceptive."

 

"I KNOW WHO IS GOING TO BE ON THE IRON THRONE AT THE END"

 

proves jack sh*t. 'Nobody' is a perfectly reasonable answer.

 

"THERE IS ENOUGH CUT WRITTEN MATERIAL FOR AN ENTIRE OTHER BOOK"

 

is not a surprise for anybody who kept up with TWOIAF's progress. It's well known this material is headed for 'Fire and Blood.'

 

THERE ARE DINOSAURS IN THE WORLD OF ICE AND FIRE IN THE OUTER LANDS.

 

Of course there are. Cold-blooded lizards could never thrive in Braavos's cold, foggy climate. Warm-blooded dinosaurs would have no problem there.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

No, no no no no no no no...

 

it cannot be that George says "not every word is a mystery" and we are analysing the fact he says "I know who is going to seat on the throne at the end" trying to find a secret meaning of his words

 

:lmao:

 

We've officially lost our minds :lol: