Michael Seswatha Jordan Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 Sorry but "shield me from the bad evil Muslim people" is not "growing a backbone." It's the opposite. hahahahah, dude they need to handle the bad seeds in their religion. I have been ridiculed for saying we need to bomb ISIS targets and reduce them to rubble. That will only breed more extremists. So they can handle this problem and the should. You can't have it both ways, sorry bud. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wise Fool Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 hahahahah, dude they need to handle the bad seeds in their religion. I have been ridiculed for saying we need to bomb ISIS targets and reduce them to rubble. That will only breed more extremists. So they can handle this problem and the should. You can't have it both ways, sorry bud.There is no "both ways" here - both of your insipid views are based in the same xenophobia and are simply manifestations of it that differ only in the tone of the passive-aggressive bullshit. "hahahaha" indeed, glad to see you're taking this all so seriously. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commodore Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 These are good.16 Of The Worst Ways to Respond to ISIS's Paris Attack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fragile Bird Posted November 17, 2015 Author Share Posted November 17, 2015 Once again, The Onion hits the nail on the head: http://www.theonion.com/article/desperate-obama-just-wants-know-who-give-weapons-o-51853?utm_source=Facebook&utm_medium=SocialMarketing&utm_campaign=LinkPreview:1:Default Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OnionAhaiReborn Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 OAR,Thank you for your post and insight. It makes sense and is a rational way do deal with ISIS and the problem in Syria. My question, is once we have no presence in the region (which I totally agree with), what then is the answer to erasing this ideology from the world? This is what I meant by growing a backbone. Not letting this take over anymore countries where the majority of people are decent human beings. Because, regardless of what you guys might think, I love and care Muslims I know in my own life. I have no hate for them and would love to see the Middle East a stable peaceful region. But, the reality is that, that will not change until this ideology doesn't exist anymore.I think there are already forces in the Middle East with the desire and backbone to oppose Islamic extremists, and the threats to regional stability are certainly not limited to radical Islam. Assad's regime is Baathist, which is a secular (or at least relatively secular), anti-Western/imperialist ideology, the same as Hussein's regime in Iraq. Egypt under Mubarak was relatively secular but pro-Western, and after a brief interlude during which the Muslim Brotherhood won elections and power, the relatively secular and pro-Western military rules Egypt again. That's not at all to say these regimes are praiseworthy, it's to say that it is certainly not the case that Islamic extremists rule the ideological landscape unopposed, and that there are other guilty parties. Turkey, Lebanon, Iraq, Kuwait, and, of course, Israel all have some form of democratic government. Even Iran has some democratic features to its government and appears to be moving in a more moderate direction. So there are certainly regional ideological movements and state powers that are relatively moderate and have an interest in stability, some even worthy of our (non-military) support.There is plenty of hostility between regional actors, of course, and I don't see that going away easily or any time soon- there are no simple answers. But what much of the populace has in common is hostility to the US and the West, even if it's not coming from an Islamist perspective. And the worst thing we can do is to help radical Islamists or any other bad actors (like Assad) to take advantage of this sentiment to recruit or strengthen their positions by continuing or even escalating our involvement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corvinus85 Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 Just saw this on USA Today. France has invoked the mutual-defense clause of the EU. This is the first time when this clause was invoked. France became the first European Union country to invoke the 28-nation political bloc's mutual-defense clause Tuesday in the wake of the Paris attacks that killed at least 129 people.... The clause — article 42.7 of the Treaty on European Union — says that "if a member state is the victim of armed aggression on its territory, the other member states shall have toward it an obligation of aid and assistance by all the means in their power." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wise Fool Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 These are good.16 Of The Worst Ways to Respond to ISIS's Paris Attack That very article ought to be the 17th worst possible way to respond: just tearing into the President, into media, into political figures, into liberals, into Muslims, into basically everybody (except ISIS). Boy, that right-wing author sure bloviated his way into being a good role model for how to react to ISIS. I guess we should all take a lesson from that and start denouncing the West in general.What a bunch of fucking nonsense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Seswatha Jordan Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 There is no "both ways" here - both of your insipid views are based in the same xenophobia and are simply manifestations of it that differ only in the tone of the passive-aggressive bullshit. "hahahaha" indeed, glad to see you're taking this all so seriously.How do you figurebi suffer from xenophobia? I have a family of six as neighbors whom are Muslim, work with Muslims and thy are some of the nicest people I know. Spare me your bullshit. I never suggested sending Muslims back to the Middle East. Rather, sealing off their borders and making them work out and end to this radical form of Islam. Grow a backbone, take back their country and get along with the world community. I am taking nothing as a joke. If bombing ISIS targets is too distasteful for likes of so many, then that's the only other option. Maybe then they'll stand up to these radicals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimbold Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 The most annoying implication of these attacks is undoubetly the spread of french flags on facebook.Bunch of egotistical idiots... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wise Fool Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 How do you figurebi suffer from xenophobia? I have a family of six as neighbors whom are Muslim, work with Muslims and thy are some of the nicest people I know. Spare me your bullshit. I never suggested sending Muslims back to the Middle East. Rather, sealing off their borders and making them work out and end to this radical form of Islam. Grow a backbone, take back their country and get along with the world community. I am taking nothing as a joke. If bombing ISIS targets is too distasteful for likes of so many, then that's the only other option. Maybe then they'll stand up to these radicals.Oh, the "some of my friends are Muslims" defense. Great, so it's not like the only two options you've proposed in this thread are1. Indiscriminate bombing.2. Closing the bordersOh wait it is. Those are exactly the only two things you've proposed, and both of them are clearly based in xenophobia. They are in fact QED of what xenophobia is.Your disgusting "grow a backbone" comment doesn't need to be repeated as many times as you have. You're basically saying to millions of refugees - ordinary people who have basically no means and are fleeing from an oppressive military force - that they're a bunch of cowards and they just need to man up and stop running. As if you have any fucking clue what it's like to be a refugee, or to live in the Middle East at all, or to deal with ISIS. You don't. You are talking out of your ass. Do you have anything else to say, or are you just going to be giggling and repeating your stupid fucking shit on every page of this thread? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Seswatha Jordan Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 I think there are already forces in the Middle East with the desire and backbone to oppose Islamic extremists, and the threats to regional stability are certainly not limited to radical Islam. Assad's regime is Baathist, which is a secular (or at least relatively secular), anti-Western/imperialist ideology, the same as Hussein's regime in Iraq. Egypt under Mubarak was relatively secular but pro-Western, and after a brief interlude during which the Muslim Brotherhood won elections and power, the relatively secular and pro-Western military rules Egypt again. That's not at all to say these regimes are praiseworthy, it's to say that it is certainly not the case that Islamic extremists rule the ideological landscape unopposed, and that there are other guilty parties. Turkey, Lebanon, Iraq, Kuwait, and, of course, Israel all have some form of democratic government. Even Iran has some democratic features to its government and appears to be moving in a more moderate direction. So there are certainly regional ideological movements and state powers that are relatively moderate and have an interest in stability, some even worthy of our (non-military) support.There is plenty of hostility between regional actors, of course, and I don't see that going away easily or any time soon- there are no simple answers. But what much of the populace has in common is hostility to the US and the West, even if it's not coming from an Islamist perspective. And the worst thing we can do is to help radical Islamists or any other bad actors (like Assad) to take advantage of this sentiment to recruit or strengthen their positions by continuing or even escalating our involvement.Thanks for the information. I have always thought that our presence in the ME does more harm than good. I'd like to see us do a full military withdrawal from the region. Then, as you said the governments who are strong enough to fight back against these extremists. It does make sense that our presence alone is what causes so many to turn to this type of ideology. Now, whether we ever will is highly doubtful, because of the many interests we have in the region. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fragile Bird Posted November 17, 2015 Author Share Posted November 17, 2015 Just saw this on USA Today. France has invoked the mutual-defense clause of the EU. This is the first time when this clause was invoked. NVM. I misread your post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isabel Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 The USA can't have invoked the clause of mutual defense of the European Union, since they aren't part of the EU Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Seswatha Jordan Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 Oh, the "some of my friends are Muslims" defense. Great, so it's not like the only two options you've proposed in this thread are1. Indiscriminate bombing.2. Closing the bordersOh wait it is. Those are exactly the only two things you've proposed, and both of them are clearly based in xenophobia. They are in fact QED of what xenophobia is.Your disgusting "grow a backbone" comment doesn't need to be repeated as many times as you have. You're basically saying to millions of refugees - ordinary people who have basically no means and are fleeing from an oppressive military force - that they're a bunch of cowards and they just need to man up and stop running. As if you have any fucking clue what it's like to be a refugee, or to live in the Middle East at all, or to deal with ISIS. You don't. You are talking out of your ass. Do you have anything else to say, or are you just going to be giggling and repeating your stupid fucking shit on every page of this thread?No, I am not inferring that the civilian refugees are the ones who take action. And you a summing so, just shows me how ignorant you really are. I'm talking about the governments and their ability to protect their people, and inability to not do so. They created these problems by letting them escalate, by letting ISIS take over city after city. You fucking people and your cut and paste responses to everything. Oh I guess because I say I know Muslims that I'm not suffering from xenophobia, and you're response is that's what someone would say. Spare me. They opening of borders is just a way that these terrorists enter other countries to carry out these attacks. It works to their advantage. I'm not saying cease all refugees from fleeing the war at this moment. I say this situation in Syria needs to be stabilized, then when these situations come up again, its up to other ME countries to provide asylum for refugees. These are their people, and the situation needs to be handled regionally. Then when terrorists flee to say Jordan with the refugees its Jordan's problem. Then maybe, just maybe the countries in the ME will have had enough, and work to rid them from this cancer that is radicalism.Instead of picking me apart and in general letting anyone with a different point of view than yours, know how awful a human being they are, offer what you might do to remedy the situation. Get off your high fucking horse, and offer something other than your attacks on anything that isn't liberal. Grow a fucking backbone, so to say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S John Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 Man this whole problem is a clusterfuck and there is no good answer. I've been a borderline isolationist for going on 10 years now, for the record.Seems to me that the first step is accountability. Lets start with the West. The West needs to recognize that many of these current issues with the Middle East and Islam are our own fault. Going back to the colonial era and mashing together disparate ethnic and religious groups under the iron fist of a western friendly strong man. Fast forwarding a little to the carving out of a Jewish state post-WW2 (nobody else was living there, right?). Fast forwarding a little more to the incessant little games played by the US and others where we fund and arm whichever group is the the flavor of the week only to have it bite us in the ass later. This happens at an alarming rate. Taliban, Saddam, ISIS to an extent. And, of course, the Iraq War where we created a power vacuum that has allowed radical groups to flourish. Everything we touch in the Middle East turns to shit and owning that fact is an important step to crafting a future plan.Our role in all of this also makes it difficult and particularly heartless to ignore the repercussions of these half-cocked policies over the years. The most current consequence being the Syrian refugee crisis. We have a duty to take in some of these people and we should spread that burden around between western nations. Some western politicians are clearly cashing in on xenophobic attitudes to further their own political agenda, but fears that there are some bad seeds amongst them are certainly NOT entirely unfounded. From a national security standpoint, that needs to be acknowledged and accounted for.All in all, there is no doubt in my mind that I want the United States to take a step back from activities in this region of the world. It is clear that the interplay of factions is complex and beyond our ability to get it right. Today's favored armed rebel group is tomorrow's terrorist and the cycle goes on and on. But that does lead me to my second point, which is that if we are going to step back, which at this point in time might just be the most productive thing we could possibly do - then other regional powers need to take care of the dog shit in their own back yard. Where do the Gulf States get their military hardware, where does Iraq? We are already subsidizing much of the military power in that region. We need to seriously ask ourselves if that is time, effort, and money well spent.To me, the most pitiful example was last summer when Mosul fell to ISIS. 30,000 US armed, trained, and equipped Iraqi soldiers with attack helicopters in support fled from about 1,000 IS fighters. Losing, among other things, over 2,000 humvees that ISIS now enjoys. Now this is an area where I'm going to side with MSJ's backbone comment a little bit. The Iraqi Army had every single conceivable advantage in that fight and failed miserably. It seems clear to me that at some point, you have to take a stand. The US, Russia, France, whoever else should not be expected to occupy and prop-up countries like Iraq and Syria indefinitely. At some point, the people of those countries are going to have take back and hold what is theirs. Regional powers need to take a more active role. That has to happen in both Iraq AND in Syria, the local population standing up and fighting is 100% necessary to defeat ISIS and other radical Islamic groups. The people of the region suffer far more from Islamic terror than Westerners do. It is the most important thing that needs to happen, and that is where accountability of Middle Eastern people's comes into play. There has to be a real effort to get your house in order. And, well, if the US is going to sink trillions of dollars into a risky prospect... how 'bout we get a single-payer healthcare system instead of remaining balls deep in Middle Eastern violence and intrigue when we only seem to be able to exacerbate the problems.Of course, the thorn in the side of my anti-western involvement theme is that ISIS holds territory. That cannot be allowed to continue. As a cohesive regional fighting force with a base, it's past time they had their guts stomped out. I don't particularly want the US majorly involved in this effort, and I wish regional powers would take the lead. But I do believe this outcome is necessary before security can return to Iraq and Syria, and it needs to happen soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fragile Bird Posted November 17, 2015 Author Share Posted November 17, 2015 The USA can't have invoked the clause of mutual defense of the European Union, since they aren't part of the EU Lol, my eyes read EU and my brain saw NATO. I think the word 'invoked' did it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mexal Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 Thanks for the information. I have always thought that our presence in the ME does more harm than good. I'd like to see us do a full military withdrawal from the region. Then, as you said the governments who are strong enough to fight back against these extremists. It does make sense that our presence alone is what causes so many to turn to this type of ideology. Now, whether we ever will is highly doubtful, because of the many interests we have in the region.Yea, that'd be nice, expect the last time we did a military withdrawal, half the country then blamed the current issues on that withdrawal. No good option here at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wise Fool Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 No, I am not inferring that the civilian refugees are the ones who take action. And you a summing so, just shows me how ignorant you really are. I'm talking about the governments and their ability to protect their people, and inability to not do so. They created these problems by letting them escalate, by letting ISIS take over city after city. You fucking people and your cut and paste responses to everything. Oh I guess because I say I know Muslims that I'm not suffering from xenophobia, and you're response is that's what someone would say. Spare me. They opening of borders is just a way that these terrorists enter other countries to carry out these attacks. It works to their advantage. I'm not saying cease all refugees from fleeing the war at this moment. I say this situation in Syria needs to be stabilized, then when these situations come up again, its up to other ME countries to provide asylum for refugees. These are their people, and the situation needs to be handled regionally. Then when terrorists flee to say Jordan with the refugees its Jordan's problem. Then maybe, just maybe the countries in the ME will have had enough, and work to rid them from this cancer that is radicalism.Instead of picking me apart and in general letting anyone with a different point of view than yours, know how awful a human being they are, offer what you might do to remedy the situation. Get off your high fucking horse, and offer something other than your attacks on anything that isn't liberal. Grow a fucking backbone, so to say.So, you just said that the governments have an inability to protect their people. And your solution is to just close off their borders so that they'll "grow a backbone" and magically just "rid them[selves] from this cancer that is radicalism." Your argument somehow manages to get stupider with every repetition. No, I am not going to simply ignore this fecal stream that emanates from your oratory orifices. Tearing apart this kind of offensive bullshit is what I do and what needs to be done. You're whining now that I'm being mean to "anything that isn't liberal," but what I'm doing is pointing out that your proposals (again: 'bomb everybody!' and 'seal off the borders and hope for the best!') are classic xenophobic policies. You need to understand this. Your ideas suck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mormont Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 [mod] Stay civil, people. This is an emotive topic but that does not mean normal board etiquette does not apply. [/mod] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mexal Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 Part 2 of the The Daily Beast segment about ISIS: Spies like ISIS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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