Mass shooting in San Bernandino

[Fragile Bird]

Er....    a workplace rage thing where he gets angry at the Christmas party ("Secret Santa" gift stress no doubt), return to where he has pre-stockpiled illegal assault rifles and body armor, and convinces his wife and brother to shoot 20 people?  

 

That would be a real first, imo.  

 

Police have confirmed at least one of the weapons was legally purchased.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

Er....    a workplace rage thing where he gets angry at the Christmas party ("Secret Santa" gift stress no doubt), return to where he has pre-stockpiled illegal assault rifles and body armor, and convinces his wife and brother to shoot 20 people?  

 

That would be a real first, imo.  

 

No, it was clearly planned, but why not the rest? Kind of a cross between disgruntled postal worker and family suicide pact. I saw something speculating that one of the suspects may have been Farook's brother, but I don't think that's been confirmed, and I haven't seen anything regarding the potential identity of the woman. 

[The Human Abstract]

Would still be a first and spectacularly unusual.  Can you ever recall an entire family of a disgruntled worker mass murdering?  

I also am under the impression he was gainfully employed.  Not unjustly fired or something.

 

 But then I suppose the details are still trickling in.

Let's say my remarks were intended to express skepticism and not to be entirely dismissive of alternate theories.   

 

[Fragile Bird]

Now I see the police have recovered 4 weapons and have confirmed that 2 were legally purchased.  They are still tracing the other two.

The so-called pipe bomb thrown at the police in the chase turned out to be a fake.

An expert on CNN said it is a pattern in workplace shootings that the shooter will be at the workplace (or with other employees), leave for some reason, often because of an argument or because something happened or didn't happen (like a salary increase or a promotion) and returned with a weapon or weapons that they had ready.

 

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

 Not unjustly fired or something.

Yeah, from everything I've read, he was still employed by the San Bernadino Department of Public Health.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

An expert on CNN said it is a pattern in workplace shootings that the shooter will be at the workplace (or with other employees), leave for some reason, often because of an argument or because something happened or didn't happen (like a salary increase or a promotion) and returned with a weapon or weapons that they had ready.

Or in this case he could just go to the party to confirm that the folks he most wants to kill are there, bop out for the hardware once that's confirmed, and then proceed to go to town. 

[Fragile Bird]

I thought President Obama looked incredibly weary when interviewed about the shootings.  Not only weary, but disheartened.

ETA:  Equally disheartening was hearing the employees at that work site had regular drills on what to do in the event of a shooter coming in.  Good, in the sense they knew what to do, barricade doors, shut off lights, hide, but horrible to think they actually had drills.

[The Human Abstract]

Or in this case he could just go to the party to confirm that the folks he most wants to kill are there, bop out for the hardware once that's confirmed, and then proceed to go to town. 

I think that's the theory law enforcement is going with right now.   

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

ETA:  Equally disheartening was hearing the employees at that work site had regular drills on what to do in the event of a shooter coming in.  Good, in the sense they knew what to do, barricade doors, shut off lights, hide, but horrible to think they actually had drills.

That kind of leads to why the shooter might have picked this spot. Outside the normal workplace where the drill would be less effective as they aren't as familiar with the layout and such.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Er....    a workplace rage thing where he gets angry at the Christmas party ("Secret Santa" gift stress no doubt), return to where he has pre-stockpiled illegal assault rifles and body armor, and convinces his wife and brother to shoot 20 people?  

 

That would be a real first, imo.  

 

I know you're joking but I can't stop thinking that, if that had been the reason, some people would be asking for banning Secret Santas at workplaces... because Secret Santas was totally the problem.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

To be fair, our fascination with firearms is societal, isn't it? 

As a foreigner, and without passing any judgement, I'd say that's the impression. According to sociologists I'm reading atm, "mental problems" could be a cause but not THE cause.

 

I do think that it's a lot more than just 'guns', yeah. It's not just our love of guns or our fetishistic worship of them. 

It's that we as the US culturally see violence as a solution. And we see individual action as something to be praised. We encourage our patriots and rebels and vigilantes. Our culture praises individuals going against the grain and fighting for what is right. About being exceptional, special, important. 

So yeah, when a bunch of people say that Something Should Be Done - it's not that surprising that someone listens and says "And I'll be BATMAN" and does it. I know i've been guilty of that, when I hear about (say) someone I care about being raped or a child being abused. 

A lot of countries and societies have a tendency to glorify violence as a solution. Here, in South America, we're a very violent society as well. Recently, a very idiotic campaign was started here: people wanted to capture robbers and publicly lynch them (we have high rates of crime, one every 5 minutes). And it did attract some fans.

People are always going to take solutions in their hands, specially due to desperation. It's about the authorities. The local chief for gun control dept. just proposed new laws for gun control (we definitely have more illegals guns than in USA, I'm sure), and told public opinion that more guns won't stop delinquency.

[Fez]

Attacking prayer is an interesting new hot take. I'm sure it will work where other gun control arguments have failed. 

Attacking prayer being offered as a meaningless platitude to prevent any discussion of real reforms should happen, and happen more. A tabloid rag's cover isn't going to change anything of course, so if it makes even one of these smug Republican assholes offended or upset, that's enough for me.

[butterbumps!]

Kinda completely missing the point. You don't get people in like Canada or the UK or Sweden buying guns for self-defence or some such. Or not in the kind of numbers you see in the US.

This might be getting slightly off topic, but visiting extended family this holiday, I was reminded of yet another issue I take with the use of the "self-defense" defense of the second amendment.

My partner's family is extremely unhealthy, with an ever-increasing list of health issues, basically entirely due to lifestyle choices.   They are slowly (and in a few cases, not so slowly), killing themselves through their choices.   I don't judge any of this.  Yet, god forbid someone might challenge the wisdom of the second amendment (specifically for self defense)!  They also fanatically lock their doors, and are extremely preoccupied with violent crime.

I don't think that holding these two positions in tandem is really all that uncommon (though I know even on this board there are exceptions to this).   I think there's something very skewed in our general obsession with safety against (honestly extremely rare) violent crimes, while simultaneously maintaining egregiously unhealthy lifestyles.   I guess there's something a bit strange to me in someone who smokes heavily and mainlines gravy advocating for gun ownership to protect himself from some vague, rare horror.  

I just think that it's a strange prioritization that we have.   Maybe it's because violent crime is far more acute (rather than a fairly slow degradation), maybe it's because the thought of stopping violence is seen as heroic, maybe it's because violent crime is an action perpetrated against us whereas poor lifestyle choices is something we're in control of.   It just seems really unfortunate that we're so obsessed with safety regarding such obscure violence against us, yet totally willing to obliterate our well-being by maintaining lifestyles that all but guarantee major sickness.

[TrackerNeil]

Don't forget we hate freedom too! It's really important to have that acknowledged

The right to bear arms is one freedom I personally could do without, at least most of the time. That particular freedom is quite literally killing us all.

While this is horrible and getting worse I'm still in far more danger on a highway.

I am soooo glad you mentioned this. People make the weirdest judgments about risk. They think their kids are going to be abducted by strangers, when it is about 30 times more likely those kids will die in a car accident. In fact, I think the top causes of child deaths are car accidents, drowning, suicide and gun accidents. To bring this back on topic, the crimes we're all so afraid of are really unlikely, and the ratio of guns to citizens reflects that inability to properly assess risk.

[zelticgar]

I just heard reports that the couple dropped their 6 month old baby off at grandma's and then went on the shooting spree! Its going to be very interesting to hear what the motive and background of this couple is. Seems inconceivable to me that a mother would knowingly abandon a child that young. She must have known that it was unlikely that she would escape. Death or jail were likely the only outcomes. I just struggle to see how a mother could knowingly do this.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Tracker,

Have you read the Freakinomics chapter about guns v swimming pools:

http://freakonomics.com/books/freakonomics/chapter-excerpts/chapter-5/

From the link:

 

But according to the data, their choice isn’t smart at all. In a given year, there is one drowning of a child for every 11,000 residential pools in the United States. (In a country with 6 million pools, this means that roughly 550 children under the age of ten drown each year.) Meanwhile, there is 1 child killed by a gun for every 1 million-plus guns. (In a country with an estimated 200 million guns, this means that roughly 175 children under ten die each year from guns.) The likelihood of death by pool (1 in 11,000) versus death by gun (1 in 1 million-plus) isn’t even close: Molly is roughly 100 times more likely to die in a swimming accident at Imani’s house than in gunplay at Amy's

[OnionAhaiReborn]

Tracker,

Have you read the Freakinomics chapter about guns v swimming pools:

http://freakonomics.com/books/freakonomics/chapter-excerpts/chapter-5/

From the link:

 

1) That article is unclear on drowning statistics. Is it just swimming pool drownings or all drownings? There are lots of bodies of water to drown in.

2) Its conclusion is dishonest. An individual child under 10, accepting those numbers, is roughly 3 times more likely to die from drowning as they are from a gun. An individual pool is 100 times more likely than an individual gun to kill a child under 10, which is the (delightfully contrarian and shocking, surprise surprise!) result they go with.

3) What importance is the arbitrary restriction to 'children under 10' to this discussion? Obviously choosing an age group when most can't swim works very nicely if you want to make a contrarian point about drowning and guns, but beyond that, why? Why just children under 10, why not under 18? Why not all ages? Care to take a guess at whether more people of all ages die from guns or drowning each year?

[karaddin]

Yeah well Scot, I'm pretty sure our Freedom hating country also has much stricter safety regulations around swimming pools...

And the death of children aren't the only deaths that matter, I know you didn't say that but responding to "guns are killing us all" with "pools are killing kids" isn't exactly addressing the point.

[Lany Freelove Cassandra]

The right to bear arms is one freedom I personally could do without, at least most of the time. That particular freedom is quite literally killing us all.

 

I was actually thinking about this on my drive home last night, and I came to the conclusion that if an attempt was made to amend the 2nd amendment it might lead to civil war, only without any clear boundary lines drawn.  It would literally be neighbor against neighbor.

And I was only thinking of a clarifying law, limiting the types of guns allowed, specifying for hunting, no semi or full automatic, and limiting all to single shots.

I don't believe I have a dark and disturbed mind, I just live in a dark and disturbed world.

I have been pro gun all my life; I learned to shoot in school! Was on a high school rifle team, have hunted and owned as many as 4 guns at one time. 

I now believe we need some really strict rules, and I fear what implementing them would do.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

1) That article is unclear on drowning statistics. Is it just swimming pool drownings or all drownings? There are lots of bodies of water to drown in.

2) Its conclusion is dishonest. An individual child under 10, accepting those numbers, is roughly 3 times more likely to die from drowning as they are from a gun. An individual pool is 100 times more likely than an individual gun to kill a child under 10, which is the (delightfully contrarian and shocking, surprise surprise!) result they go with.

3) What importance is the arbitrary restriction to 'children under 10' to this discussion? Obviously choosing an age group when most can't swim works very nicely if you want to make a contrarian point about drowning and guns, but beyond that, why? Why just children under 10, why not under 18? Why not all ages? Care to take a guess at whether more people of all ages die from guns or drowning each year?

OAR,
 

Frequently in discussions over whether to enact controls on private ownership of firearms children's safty is offered as a rational for more restrictive policies.  Hence the discussion of this as it affects children under 10.  Additionally, if you haven't read the book you wouldn't know that the the Chapter is presented from the context of one of the author's having had a child die by drowning in a swimming pool.